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Heart of Wales line future services

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swcovas

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Three years ago when the announcement was made of the new services on HOWL and the Cambrian it was also announced that £150,000 was being made available to explore future improvements to HOWL services. Does anyone know whether a report is imminent especially in light of the fact that the new services provided have been something of a failure in terms of footfall?
 
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ChiefPlanner

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I suspect there may be something in the new franchise as a costed option (or maybe not)

One gathers the amended Mon- Friday service has been a bit of a dissapointment - but any tangible feedback on actual loadings would be appreciated.

There is actually (when you think about it) - a lot of infrastructure being paid for - so extra services in theory ought to be marginal , if the conflicting stakeholder needs can be squared up.....last thing you need really is yet another consultants report stating the obvious.
 

PHILIPE

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I suspect there may be something in the new franchise as a costed option (or maybe not)

One gathers the amended Mon- Friday service has been a bit of a dissapointment - but any tangible feedback on actual loadings would be appreciated.

There is actually (when you think about it) - a lot of infrastructure being paid for - so extra services in theory ought to be marginal , if the conflicting stakeholder needs can be squared up.....last thing you need really is yet another consultants report stating the obvious.

The disappointment has resulted due to the extra trains at the top and bottom of the line causing the existing trains to be retimed to unsuitable times for passengers.
 

ChiefPlanner

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The disappointment has resulted due to the extra trains at the top and bottom of the line causing the existing trains to be retimed to unsuitable times for passengers.

Presume you mean the "through" trains - end to end , Salop - Swansea ?
 

PHILIPE

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Presume you mean the "through" trains - end to end , Salop - Swansea ?

Perhaps not clear. The additionals were a Llandovery turn back at the South End and a Llandrindod Wells turn back at the North End. The effect of these on the existing trains resulting in retiming of these and rendering the service unsuitable for many people. Especially hard hit were students and others commuting from Craven Arms and Church Stretton in the morning who would have to travel on the new service to arrive intime but half an hour earlier. It was a Welsh Government initiative but because Craven Arms and Church Stretton are in England these locations were not part of the consultations.
 

Envoy

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Perhaps not clear. The additionals were a Llandovery turn back at the South End and a Llandrindod Wells turn back at the North End. The effect of these on the existing trains resulting in retiming of these and rendering the service unsuitable for many people. Especially hard hit were students and others commuting from Craven Arms and Church Stretton in the morning who would have to travel on the new service to arrive intime but half an hour earlier. It was a Welsh Government initiative but because Craven Arms and Church Stretton are in England these locations were not part of the consultations.

That is appalling that English communities were not part of the consultations. So, *every train that serves the Marches is under the Welsh franchise yet they have no say in their services! * Apart from London Midland going east from Hereford.
 

Greenback

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The train that used to ge tinto Swansea just after 0900 was pretty well loaded by the time it got to Llanelli. I caught it a few times myself, because the preceding service was late or too crowded, and I was always pleasantly surprised by the numbers on board.

I hink the current service from Llandovery is a bit too early, and I believe that ideally it would arrive 20 minutes or so later. but there are constraints on what can be done.

I can't speak for the northenr end of the line from personal experience, but the timetabl;e doesn't seem to be as useful as it previously was for commuters and students. Again, though, this might well be the best compromise possible.
 
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Three years ago when the announcement was made of the new services on HOWL and the Cambrian it was also announced that £150,000 was being made available to explore future improvements to HOWL services. Does anyone know whether a report is imminent especially in light of the fact that the new services provided have been something of a failure in terms of footfall?

Would it be possible for ATW to run a more frequent service on this line? Maybe every two hours in each direction? I am just wondering if the service was more frequent then it could attract many more people to use the line?
 

xcooler123

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Would it be possible for ATW to run a more frequent service on this line? Maybe every two hours in each direction? I am just wondering if the service was more frequent then it could attract many more people to use the line?

Makes no sense at the moment, demand is just not there and with the shortage of stock that ATW currently have they definitely don't want to commit more trains to the route.

If you look at the combined passenger figures for all stations on the core section (Broome to Bynea inclusive) yearly passenger number had plateaued between 190k-200k since 2007-08. There was a peak of 206k in 2014-15 followed by a decline to 187k in 2015-16 (lowest in 9 years) when the amended timetable was introduced suggesting it has not worked.
 

Parallel

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The two times I've used the HOW services from Shrewsbury (14:05) they've been pretty much full. A lot of these passengers leave at Knighton, with another large amount leaving at Llandrindod. There are still other passengers on board, trickling on and off request stops en route.

I think it should be about suiting the market. More shuttle services are needed definitely at the north end. One train every 4 hours between Llandrindod - Knighton and definitely Knighton and Shrewsbury is definitely restricting demand IMO - and there is a market there.

The south of the line has a few towns with a much better bus service, therefore it would be difficult to compete with this, but the HOWL does have passengers doing longer journeys. When I used the line last, the train got very busy again southbound, mainly with people boarding from Llandovery going for a night out in Swansea. The last train back to these towns is way too early, I think it's at something like 18:30. I think the last train back from Swansea to Llandovery should be at least around 21:00 so passengers who are likely to use the service to head out for a meal and drinks can make it back the same night!

If ever units become available, 1 unit shuttling between Shrewsbury and Llandrindod, and the same between Swansea and Llandovery giving a shuttle service once every 4 hours, to run with the 4 hourly through trains, and the busier parts of the lines will get 1tp2h... Though I'm sure that's easier said than done...
 

70014IronDuke

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The two times I've used the HOW services from Shrewsbury (14:05) they've been pretty much full. A lot of these passengers leave at Knighton, with another large amount leaving at Llandrindod. There are still other passengers on board, trickling on and off request stops en route.
....

The last train back to these towns is way too early, .....

I think you are probably getting close to the problem(s) here.

The current timetable, and the one employed for years before that (ie as per a Saturday right now) is really a 'maximum' affordable basic (ie minimum) timetable for the central section of the line, that is between Llandrindod and Llandovery, or perhaps to Llandeilo.

But this basic service is really inadequate for the more populated northern end (Llandrindod and Knighton to Craven Arms/Shrewsbury) and is almost useless for the southern end, most especially the significant populations from Amannford to Llanelli/Swansea.

What the powers at be tried to do with the new service is supplement the basic service with an extra train at each end in the morning, using the logic that five trains a day over the outer sections has to be better than four (even if both options are pretty pathetic).

On paper, that would appear to be true, especially as, at the southern end, the new timetable provides a commuter time arrival in Swansea. (If, perhaps, a bit too early to be ideal.)

But what it seems to have done is alienate some old-time passengers, while failing to be an improvement good enough to attract significant numbers of new clientel.

IMO, one of the key problems is that, however the morning service is strengthened – even if three trains were provided - if there is no improved afternoon service back, it must make commuting to Swansea or Shrewsbury a joke for most potential users. Because between 14.00 (or so) and 18.00 plus there is simply no train at either end.

So, as things stand, if you finish school/college/work/shopping in either of the end line between 15.30 – 17.00, you still have to wait until 18.00 plus for a train home, with an arrival at the doorstep probably at 19.30 at the earliest, more likely around 20.00.

How unnattractive is that?

Yet you advocate an even later last departure! Fine if you can get the stock, but not at the expense of the current last departures.

Considering the the current allocation of stock and crews, the schedule today is probably the best compromise on offer. But it is surely not getting the best out of the fixed assets.

The central section of the HoWL is a basket case. Keep the four trains per day as a minimum service for those without alternative transport

But the current five trains a day at the northern and southern ends is what youmight call a "life support service", it is simply inadequate as a basic service for these areas. As a minimum, both Swansea and Shrewsbury need trains departing around 17.00* in order to offer, together with the current 18.xx departures, some sort of sensible commuting options to Llandeilo and Llandrindod respectively.

*In practice, due to pathing constraints between Llandeilo and the Swansea District line (I forget the name of the Jcn), I think to fit into the current TT, any extra train from Swansea would have to leave around either 16.00 or 17.20.

Longer term, a new loop needs to be put in at Ammanford or Pantyfynnon, and a proper hourly commuter service introduced between Ammanford and Swansea, with maybe a few trains extended to Llandeilo and/or Llandovery.

Whether money, stock and will can ever be found for such an option is another matter.
 

Greenback

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You have made some good points. The deficiencies of the afternoon services ar eone of the things that I feel need addressing. However, given the stock situation with ATW, I;m not sure anything can be realisticalyl done at this moment in time.
 

Envoy

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In an ideal world, I really do wonder what would happen if a service ran from Llandeilo > Ammanford > Pontarddulais > SDL > new station at Morriston M4 J45 (with P&R & bus link to hospital and Swansea city centre - same route) > new station to serve the new Llandarcy village > Port Talbot - with possible extension to Cardiff. It would certainly make travel from the aforementioned places to and from the east a lot quicker and more attractive than the present arrangement via Llanelli.

If trains were able to link Cardiff with the HoW via this more direct route, a lot more tourists would be attracted to do the HoW / Marches circuit of southern Wales than is the case now.
The quickest way this might happen now would be for the Fishguard flyer to be timed to stop at Llangennech & match a northbound train for Shrewsbury picking them up about 10 minutes later.
 
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Greenback

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Interesting suggestions, and I think very worthy of consideration. Maybe the extra train from Llandovery should run to Cardiff and not Swansea as a trial?
 

squizzler

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Not so long ago there was an article in Modern Railways discussing a total recast of the train operator was considering a depot at Llandovery - all the better to avoid an empty movement from Swansea to pick up the commuters. There was talk also of a faster service using cascaded 158's or similar and line improvements. A better located passing loop was mooted.

Whilst the HoW line ridership is flat this does not (anecdotally) seem the case with other transport services. In Llandrindod the bus stop looks busy in the morning with many customers boarding the Trawscymru T4 between Cardiff and Newtown and the Sargeants 461 to Hereford - indicating that even out here the other operators are growing their market.
 

PHILIPE

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Not so long ago there was an article in Modern Railways discussing a total recast of the train operator was considering a depot at Llandovery - all the better to avoid an empty movement from Swansea to pick up the commuters. There was talk also of a faster service using cascaded 158's or similar and line improvements. A better located passing loop was mooted.

Whilst the HoW line ridership is flat this does not (anecdotally) seem the case with other transport services. In Llandrindod the bus stop looks busy in the morning with many customers boarding the Trawscymru T4 between Cardiff and Newtown and the Sargeants 461 to Hereford - indicating that even out here the other operators are growing their market.

I don't think you'll find a Depot ever coming on line at Llandovery. 158s are not cleared for the route in passenger service. They can run ECS or attach to another unit providing it is locked out of use. In such instances the air bags have to be deflated due to platform clearance issues.
 

squizzler

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I don't think you'll find a Depot ever coming on line at Llandovery. 158s are not cleared for the route in passenger service. They can run ECS or attach to another unit providing it is locked out of use. In such instances the air bags have to be deflated due to platform clearance issues.

Both these things were reported in MR, I'm sure somebody will be able to enlighten us to the month. It wasn't something that was going to happen immediately on commencement of the next franchise, granted, but these are serious proposals.

Incidentally, can it really be beyond the wit of man to clear a 158 or other unit to run the line? Arriva 175's have previously been cleared.

The Travellers Association (I am a member albeit not official spokesperson) are making sure the Community Line Partnership does not get forgotten in the franchising process.

Finally we must not forget the work just beginning under the Community Rail Partnership's commercial spin off - the Heart of Wales Line Development Company - which is both aiming to make the line indispensable to local populations with its Community Hub programme and attracting outside visitors under the Heart of Wales Holidays brand.
 
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PHILIPE

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Both these things were reported in MR, I'm sure somebody will be able to enlighten us to the month. It wasn't something that was going to happen immediately on commencement of the next franchise, granted, but these are serious proposals.

Incidentally, can it really be beyond the wit of man to clear a 158 or other unit to run the line? Arriva 175's have previously been cleared.

The Travellers Association (I am a member albeit not official spokesperson) are making sure the Community Line Partnership does not get forgotten in the franchising process.

Finally we must not forget the work just beginning under the Community Rail Partnership's commercial spin off - the Heart of Wales Line Development Company - which is both aiming to make the line indispensable to local populations with its Community Hub programme and attracting outside visitors under the Heart of Wales Holidays brand.

Class 175s and 158s and any other class would have different measurements.
 

Envoy

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My understanding is that the 158’s can’t use the HoW because the doors would hit certain platforms.

I previously mentioned a Park & Ride on the District Line at Morriston M4 J45. What about putting a new station P&R at M4 J48 and closing the nearby Pontarddulais station? If trains were coming down from Llandeilo and maybe Llandovery and then using the SDL to Port Talbot and perhaps Cardiff, people who might well drive to Cardiff from these areas as well as Cross Hands, might use the trains? New business could be created as people in say Ammanford would think it wonderful that they could simply get on a through train that would take them to the heart of Cardiff quickly. Buses could link from such a new station with Cross Hands and the National Botanic Garden of Wales before proceeding to Carmarthen. The only downside that I can see is that people in Carmarthen, might well drive to such a new P&R at J48 as it would be quicker than using trains via the longer coastal route that also go into Swansea.

As I said previously, I am sure that more people / tourists from Cardiff and other joining places such as Hereford, would be more inclined to do the HoW circuit of southern Wales if trains took the SDL short cut. Swansea would hardly lose out as they would have a station at Morriston.

Here is a map of the J48 area:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7061593,-4.0585631,1473m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1
 

30907

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I am sure that more people / tourists from Cardiff and other joining places such as Hereford, would be more inclined to do the HoW circuit of southern Wales if trains took the SDL short cut.

I can see other arguments in favour, but is the HOW circuit really that time-sensitive? And what is the current usage of the circular ticket?

PS Thanks for the map link - if the SDL were to reopen, a station by the J47 services would make better sense IMO.
 
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Envoy

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I can see other arguments in favour, but is the HOW circuit really that time-sensitive? And what is the current usage of the circular ticket?.

As the HoW line is so slow going, I would contend that to do the complete circuit of southern Wales - and ideally let people have a couple of stops at say Ludlow and Hereford, it would certainly present a more favourable day out than the present arrangements.

Ideally, a train would leave Llandovery / Llandeilo around 7.30am and go to Cardiff via the SDL. It would then leave Cardiff about *9.10am and go back via the SDL and proceed all the way to Shrewsbury. *Being a favourable time to pick up tourists. From Shrewsbury/ Craven Arms etc. passengers could return south via any train and have multiple breaks of journey - provided it is completed the same day.

I am not sure what the current usage is of the circular ticket. However, with promotion, the short-cut that I mention above plus a favourable timing out of Cardiff, circular day trip tourist traffic could increase significantly. I would also like to see bus links from Llandeilo clearly marked on the HoW timetables for Carreg Cennen Castle (near Trapp) - probably a postbus? In addition, a bus link from Llandeilo to Aberglasney Gardens, the National Botanic Garden of Wales and through to Carmarthen.

A footpath alongside the railway from Craven Arms to Stokesay Castle would be most useful as it is not pleasant walking along the A49.

I also wonder about a bus link from Llandeilo to Aberystwyth. If direct trains were going to/from Cardiff to Llandeilo, would this reduce the time it takes to reach Aberystwyth compared to go via Carmarthen? (Yes, I know that the road through Talley is very winding).
 

70014IronDuke

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In an ideal world, I really do wonder what would happen if a service ran from Llandeilo > Ammanford > Pontarddulais > SDL > new station at Morriston M4 J45 (with P&R & bus link to hospital and Swansea city centre - same route) > new station to serve the new Llandarcy village > Port Talbot - with possible extension to Cardiff. It would certainly make travel from the aforementioned places to and from the east a lot quicker and more attractive than the present arrangement via Llanelli.

If trains were able to link Cardiff with the HoW via this more direct route, a lot more tourists would be attracted to do the HoW / Marches circuit of southern Wales than is the case now.
The quickest way this might happen now would be for the Fishguard flyer to be timed to stop at Llangennech & match a northbound train for Shrewsbury picking them up about 10 minutes later.

It's a long time since I was in the area, so I can't opine with much more than armchair knowledge, but while I think the Swansea District route is ripe for development, I am not sure linking it to the HoWL directly - or at least as the main basis for development - would be the way forward. Far too much uncertainty to be able to create a business case, I fear.

Rather, as discussed on (the bonkiest of bonky) threads "Aberystwyth to Carmarthen Reopening" - I feel it's best chance for a hearing is the argument to create a limited stop Carmarthen - Cardiff - (Somewhere? Manchester? Bristol?) service by-passing the Swansea HS reversal.

Now, if you could insert a bay at either the new Morriston Parkway or Port Talbot stations (is there space there?) a vastly improved HoWL service from Llandeilo might dovetail into this new service, perhaps (and provide the local service to stations like Llandarcy?).

Introducing such a service from Carmarthen would help avoid encouraging drivers from the area driving to the new Morriston Parkway.

In effect, such a service would reduce the role of Swansea as the railhead for west and west-mid Wales and increase Carmarthen's role.

I don't know about tourism passengers - I've never been in planning, but my feeling is that banking of tourism revenues for increased revenues is thin ice. Maybe others can confirm, but my feeling is you need more reliable, round the year usage forecasts to justify investment.
 

Doctor Fegg

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A footpath alongside the railway from Craven Arms to Stokesay Castle would be most useful as it is not pleasant walking along the A49.

Yes, especially if constructed as shared-use pedestrian/cyclist/horse-rider: there's a lovely byway running south from Stokesay that it would connect to.
 

70014IronDuke

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Not so long ago there was an article in Modern Railways discussing a total recast of the train operator was considering a depot at Llandovery - all the better to avoid an empty movement from Swansea to pick up the commuters. There was talk also of a faster service using cascaded 158's or similar and line improvements. A better located passing loop was mooted.

A new depot at Llandovery? It's a tiny place, isn't it? Does it have the population to provide the drivers and guards for such a depot?

Anyway, if there is space available and population, it would cost an awful lot in initial investment, in terms of fixed assets and human resources. The Welsh Development Office (or whatever it is called) should subsidise it as a means of increasing and diversifying rural employment opportunities.

Whilst the HoW line ridership is flat ...

Flat? Unfortunately not true. Would that it were.
At least according to the last ORR usage figures - most stations have suffered a significant drop in usage of 10% or more. I think only Pantyfynnon and Knighton bucked this trend. Maybe one other of the smaller ones, Bucknall? (sorry, all from memory, could have go the wrong stations - but the gist of the statement is true).

this does not (anecdotally) seem the case with other transport services. In Llandrindod the bus stop looks busy in the morning with many customers boarding the Trawscymru T4 between Cardiff and Newtown and the Sargeants 461 to Hereford - indicating that even out here the other operators are growing their market.

How "many" is "many"? 20? 25? 30? Are they travelling the entire distance? And is this just one peak morning service out, or throughout the day, or at least morning departures?

If the HoWL line speeds could be increased, frequencies improved and faster, more powerful units used - it would surely attract more passengers - but as a route from Llandrindod to Cardiff or Hereford, surely it will never compete with the timings of a limited-stop coach service?
 

Envoy

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A new depot at Llandovery? It's a tiny place, isn't it? Does it have the population to provide the drivers and guards for such a depot?

Anyway, if there is space available and population, it would cost an awful lot in initial investment, in terms of fixed assets and human resources. The Welsh Development Office (or whatever it is called) should subsidise it as a means of increasing and diversifying rural employment opportunities.

It is only about 13 miles by road from Carmarthen to Llandeilo - so, I see no reason why staff based in Carmarthen can’t drive down to Llandeilo to crew a train that has been parked up overnight at this location.
 

Blindtraveler

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I cant add much to the discussions on future services but for those who's journey is not time sensative there are some very decent advances available on most trains and I myself intend riding the line throughout from CRE to LLE later this year as the timing of my journey makes the main route via Cardif much more expensive.
 
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