Heart of Wales rolling stock discussion

[Envoy]

Worth it though! Even with the delay I was so pleased to have finally ticked off that line and what a wonderful line it is! Plus HST first class carriages are a far nicer way to travel than a 153

I have held off doing the line because of the 153’s. Was hanging on for the arrival of the 170’s but now I hear they are going to stuck with 153’s. Wonder how many other people are put off doing the HoW because of the rolling stock? Can’t be much fun in this heat with no air con. I bet that some people would rather have a 153 with no windows in this weather - which would also be better for taking photos.

 

[PHILIPE]

I have held off doing the line because of the 153’s. Was hanging on for the arrival of the 170’s but now I hear they are going to stick with 153’s. Wonder how many other people are put off doing the HoW because of the rolling stock? Can’t be much fun in this heat with no air con. I bet that some people would rather have a 153 with no windows in this weather - which would also be better for taking photos.

I suppose that had the trip been done in reverse with the failure on the HoW, that they would have curtailed the stopover in Cardiff.

You can get 150s quite often as well but you wouldn't know before hand. There is one today, for example.

On a separate note (sorry if this is in another thread and also unrelated to this topic), the ECS for the Staycation Express only got as far as Warrington before turning back and returning to Crewe……

Here is the Staycation thread:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/summer-2021-hst-staycation-specials-on-s-c.214835/page-2#post-5207951

 

[Envoy]

You can get 150s quite often as well but you wouldn't know before hand. There is one today, for example.



Here is the Staycation thread:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/summer-2021-hst-staycation-specials-on-s-c.214835/page-2#post-5207951

Yikes - all that way in a 150! I suppose that if Wales was Switzerland we would have really high class trains with panoramic windows on our scenic railways rather than some clapped out unit originally intended for short local lines? How can this line be promoted to tourists which such dire stock? At least the 170’s would have been fairly decent although I read that they are best used as fast ‘cruisers’ rather than on slower lines like the HoW. Perhaps they will have enough 197’s to cover the HoW being as more 67’s & MK4’s are in the pipeline?

Not good news about these HST failures. Perhaps they can’t stand the heat? Just as well that they have been removed from most mainline services.

Seeing the stunning livery of the Blue Pullman yesterday really makes one wonder what made GWR choose a miserable dark green shade?

 

[DelW]

Yikes - all that way in a 150! I suppose that if Wales was Switzerland we would have really high class trains with panoramic windows on our scenic railways rather than some clapped out unit originally intended for short local lines? How can this line be promoted to tourists which such dire stock? At least the 170’s would have been fairly decent although I read that they are best used as fast ‘cruisers’ rather than on slower lines like the HoW. Perhaps they will have enough 197’s to cover the HoW being as more 67’s & MK4’s are in the pipeline?

While I agree that neither 153s nor 150s do the line any favours, bear in mind that few passengers do the trip from end to end. Travelling between Shrewsbury and Swansea most would go via the Marches instead, and will be even more likely to do so when that route gets its new stock.

AIUI the current plan, now the 170s are headed elsewhere, is to refurb the elderly 153s, which presumably means they'll be there for another decade or more. It will still need charters to provide a comfortable view of the whole length of the route!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair to 153s the narrow pillars mean they do have (in common with Pacers) a "wall of glass" and actually aren't that bad for scenery.

 

[DB]

Are they going to run the 153s in pairs? If they are fitted with a disabled bog that's going to further reduce the already low seating capacity,

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yikes - all that way in a 150! I suppose that if Wales was Switzerland we would have really high class trains with panoramic windows on our scenic railways rather than some clapped out unit originally intended for short local lines?

I'm all for this, but while the HoWL is pleasant it's not stunningly scenic in the manner of the Conwy Valley, West Highland etc and so probably wouldn't have scenic stock in Switzerland either, most likely just a bog standard regional EMU (yes, the Swiss of course would have wired it).

No doubt tourists use it to reach accommodation, but it's not really a great one as a destination in itself.

 

[XAM2175]

... probably wouldn't have scenic stock in Switzerland either, most likely just a bog standard regional EMU ...

Yeah, but a bog-standard regional EMU in Switzerland is a FLIRT

That said, if it were in northern Germany or the like and without the benefit of electrification it'd still be run with units like the Coradia LINT 41 or the Desiro Classic, both of which are air-conditioned and have lovely big windows.

 

[PHILIPE]

Are they going to run the 153s in pairs? If they are fitted with a disabled bog that's going to further reduce the already low seating capacity,

The 153/3s currently run singly but on occasions there could be a 153/9 or even another 153/3s to transfer them between north and south of the TFW Network. 150s may be attached also for a similar purpose. Every few years a 175 may be seen.

 

[sd0733]

Every few years a 175 may be seen.

A 3 car 175 was used last week or the week before due to a toilet fault on booked 153.
When one does go the local passengers look at it like a space ship has turned up.

 

[Mikey C]

To be fair to 153s the narrow pillars mean they do have (in common with Pacers) a "wall of glass" and actually aren't that bad for scenery.

Yes, a much better view out than on the 150s (and indeed the EMUs of that period with their thick pillars and poor seating alignment)

 

[gallafent]

Yes, a much better view out than on the 150s (and indeed the EMUs of that period with their thick pillars and poor seating alignment)

Definitely, 155 and 153 have a very good view from the windows. And yes, the 1980s Mk3 stuff is really bad. I remember noticing this when young, when 310s (and loco-hauled Mk1s for the flyer) were replaced by 317s (then 321s) — how much less one could see out.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be fair to 153s the narrow pillars mean they do have (in common with Pacers) a "wall of glass" and actually aren't that bad for scenery.

Not so great for small children though, nor smallish adults for that matter, with them being so high and shallow (and seats so low). It also assumes that the windows will be clean and clear, which on 153s is usually not the case in my experience.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

While I agree that neither 153s nor 150s do the line any favours, bear in mind that few passengers do the trip from end to end. Travelling between Shrewsbury and Swansea most would go via the Marches instead, and will be even more likely to do so when that route gets its new stock.

You get (the same) 150s on the Marches at times too.
To be fair the TfW 150s were refurbished very nicely by ATW, but that was a long time ago now.

 

[Mikey C]

Definitely, 155 and 153 have a very good view from the windows. And yes, the 1980s Mk3 stuff is really bad. I remember noticing this when young, when 310s (and loco-hauled Mk1s for the flyer) were replaced by 317s (then 321s) — how much less one could see out.

The PEPs aren't great either, with poor window alignment and the blank walls where the sliding doors are

The Networkers (and Turbos) were a major improvement in that respect, would the 165s fit on the HoW line, if Chiltern replace them?

 

[PHILIPE]

The PEPs aren't great either, with poor window alignment and the blank walls where the sliding doors are

The Networkers (and Turbos) were a major improvement in that respect, would the 165s fit on the HoW line, if Chiltern replace them?

No chance. TFW haven't got any and neither would such a small fleet be sustainable

 

[Bletchleyite]

No chance. TFW haven't got any and neither would such a small fleet be sustainable

The 153s will already be a microfleet, so unless they upped the 197 order by a few units (and I don't entirely get why they don't do that for that exact reason) whatever they do will involve a microfleet.

 

[PHILIPE]

The 153s will already be a microfleet, so unless they upped the 197 order by a few units (and I don't entirely get why they don't do that for that exact reason) whatever they do will involve a microfleet.

The 153s are not going to be about for ever anyway

 

[DelW]

The 153s are not going to be about for ever anyway

I thought TfW had said that the Heart of Wales will retain 153s for the foreseeable future, albeit with an unspecified degree of refurbishment, now the 170s are headed elsewhere? Has that changed (again!), or did I maybe get that wrong? It's hard to keep up with what's being proposed.

Presumably the TOC or ROSCO or WG* would want a decade or so of use out of the 153s if they've had a significant refurb (and possibly structural work, as some are visibly sagging). If so I hope the changes include better legroom, the seats are ok but they're too cramped.

*depending who funds it.

 

[DB]

Why did TfW agree to release the 170s and keep the 153s anyway? It seems an odd thing to do, given that the 153s are really not good trains.

 

[PHILIPE]

Why did TfW agree to release the 170s and keep the 153s anyway? It seems an odd thing to do, given that the 153s are really not good trains.

The DFT decide what comes and goes not the TOC

 

[DB]

The DFT decide what comes and goes not the TOC

It's devolved, isn't it? The TOC and TfW are one and the same, effectively.

 

[tomuk]

The DFT decide what comes and goes not the TOC

No they don't in the case of Wales it is for the WG and Transport For Wales government agency to decide. I assume that they believe buying the Mk4s and 153s at probably near to scrap value is cheaper than leasing the 170s in the long term. They also seemed to be desperate to own trains anyway so that's another fantasy fulfilled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No they don't in the case of Wales it is for the WG and Transport For Wales government agency to decide. I assume that they believe buying the Mk4s and 153s at probably near to scrap value is cheaper than leasing the 170s in the long term. They also seemed to be desperate to own trains anyway so that's another fantasy fulfilled.

Why shouldn't they own trains if that is cheaper than leasing them?

Why did TfW agree to release the 170s and keep the 153s anyway? It seems an odd thing to do, given that the 153s are really not good trains.

Cheaper. Also, 170s use huge amounts of fuel on local stopping services because they barely get chance to get into direct drive, they really are geared for express services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why did TfW agree to release the 170s and keep the 153s anyway? It seems an odd thing to do, given that the 153s are really not good trains.

The departure of the 170s is linked to the arrival of more Mk4s isn't it, with freed-up Marches 197s displacing the 170s?
Keeping 153s might be something to do with the limited deployment of 230s (just on the Wrexham-Bidston line now).
TfW can change things more quickly now they are not tied to a franchise contract, but somebody has to stump up the cash for any changes.

 

[Mikey C]

The 153s are not going to be about for ever anyway

And neither will the 150s.

I'd be surprised if the Chiltern lines weren't electrified in the next 10 years, and fleet replacement may come sooner if Bimodes are purchased to help this process along. The Chiltern 165s (especially as they have aircon) would be a major upgrade on the 150s and 153s, and as 75 mph stock, probably better suited to local routes than the Turbostars.

 

[PHILIPE]

No they don't in the case of Wales it is for the WG and Transport For Wales government agency to decide. I assume that they believe buying the Mk4s and 153s at probably near to scrap value is cheaper than leasing the 170s in the long term. They also seemed to be desperate to own trains anyway so that's another fantasy fulfilled.

Not entirely as their transfer would involve cross border moves.

 

[wobman]

And neither will the 150s.

I'd be surprised if the Chiltern lines weren't electrified in the next 10 years, and fleet replacement may come sooner if Bimodes are purchased to help this process along. The Chiltern 165s (especially as they have aircon) would be a major upgrade on the 150s and 153s, and as 75 mph stock, probably better suited to local routes than the Turbostars.

TFW probably don't want anymore microfleets of types of Rolling stock, it's just to expensive. It's maintenance / train crew training / traincrew availability etc
TFW want eventually just 197's and MK4 sets in the north, the 230 plan shows the issue with having a micro fleet on 1 dedicated route and 1 depot.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not entirely as their transfer would involve cross border moves.

Shock horror ......

 

[tomuk]

Shock horror ......

Not entirely as their transfer would involve cross border moves.

Sorry what has cross border got to do with it. If the WG sends stock back to the ROSCO its up to the ROSCO as to where it goes next. Now the DFT does have influence over the English TOCs of course.