Heathrow Southern Link proposals

[matt_world2004]

Company being set up is being reported, presumably would work like London and Continental Railway and HS1 as the formation of a PLC acting to limit the governments risk, the appendix also indicates that all MLP's will be off the Treasuries books unless a public body is both the financer (source of capital) and funder (source of revenue). The Dft have indicated they are keen to act as the commissioners, that if a local authority/private investment consortium come up with a plan and financing it would be the Dft that would run the competition to decide the contractor and at the end of the process the infrastructure would be added to the RaB, Dft has also indicated they want competition so if say a infrastructure builder comes to them with plan and funding then other companies/investors would be invited to submit rival tenders for the scheme before deciding the best value bidder (the exception being category 1 MLP's where there is no direct or indirect government funding or guarantees and the bidder has no exclusive rights to the resulting infrastructure, the example given is a port paying to gauge clear a line for freight but expecting no exclusivity or financial return from doing so).

Investors have been given a 2 month deadline to deliver their proposals to the Dft with them publishing their response in the Autumn.

So will this link be part of the national rail network? Or would it be similar to heathrow express now private with seperate ticketing.

 

[rmt4ever]

Not necessarily true. Years ago as a PC, I pulled a speeding HGV on the A74 to find it loaded with air cargo from Glasgow to Heathrow. The driver was keen to get there fast as they were charging air fright rates for it.

Did you nick him?

 

[swt_passenger]

So will this link be part of the national rail network? Or would it be similar to heathrow express now private with seperate ticketing.

That’s the elephant in the room. If third party building also means long term non-standard ticketing. That needs to be sorted out before the Heathrow spur situation is replicated all over the place...

 

[LeeLivery]

So a Crossrail train will end up travelling on Network Rail tracks (GEML), TfL tracks (Core), Network Rail tracks again (GWML), Heathrow tracks (Heathrow Branch), Heathrow Southern Rail tracks and finally Network Rail tracks again (Windsor Riverside-Staines Branch), all within around 30 miles. That is asking for trouble.

The HSR website states it expects most Staines to Central London passengers to transfer from SWR. But that must rely on cheaper or matching fares. We already know the Heathrow branch will be at a premium so unless premium fares will only apply to people boarding/alighting at Heathrow passengers only, I can't see how that will happen. It also states Staines to Paddington by Crossrail will take as long as an SWR does to Waterloo, that doesn't add up - it takes longer to go from Paddington to Heathrow on a Connect than it does from Waterloo to Staines on a Reading train. Adding on Heathrow to Staines journey time, Windsor ER services will probably beat them too.

 

[cle]

It's about choice I suppose - same Paddington/Waterloo journey times, but how about Bond St and TCR? Or Farringdon and Liverpool St... Crossrail will be more competitive (and direct, likely with seating) to many city destinations.

Plus I can see stopping patterns being tinkered with in future to quicken up journeys, as HEx decisions are made and as more Paddington terminators are sent west. The Connect journeys stop everywhere and are the T4 successors. Staines will be T5 - expect faster patterns like Ealing and Hayes only...

Waterloo might have the edge on Canary Wharf (guess that'd depend which part of it you need) and of course Victoria (via CJ), London Bridge and Bank though.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's about choice I suppose - same Paddington/Waterloo journey times, but how about Bond St and TCR? Or Farringdon and Liverpool St... Crossrail will be more competitive (and direct, likely with seating) to many city destinations.

Plus I can see stopping patterns being tinkered with in future to quicken up journeys, as HEx decisions are made and as more Paddington terminators are sent west. The Connect journeys stop everywhere and are the T4 successors. Staines will be T5 - expect faster patterns like Ealing and Hayes only...

Current intention (only publicised a few months ago) is that an additional 2tph Crossrail are going to T5 now, so it isn’t as cut and dried as it was that Southern access must logically link up with fast services. Originally it was proposed by Airtrack they’d be HEx extensions...

 

[WatcherZero]

So will this link be part of the national rail network? Or would it be similar to heathrow express now private with seperate ticketing.

Depends on the revenue strategy I believe. Where it makes sense to be separately run and charging access fees to other operators it may do, whereas other times it may make more sense to just hand it over and charge Network Rail rent.

 

[Class 170101]

The HSR website states it expects most Staines to Central London passengers to transfer from SWR. But that must rely on cheaper or matching fares. We already know the Heathrow branch will be at a premium so unless premium fares will only apply to people boarding/alighting at Heathrow passengers only, I can't see how that will happen. It also states Staines to Paddington by Crossrail will take as long as an SWR does to Waterloo, that doesn't add up - it takes longer to go from Paddington to Heathrow on a Connect than it does from Waterloo to Staines on a Reading train. Adding on Heathrow to Staines journey time, Windsor ER services will probably beat them too.

Also it would be better to change at Staines for the North west of England and Scotland via HS1 than travel via Waterloo and Euston

 

[The Ham]

Also it would be better to change at Staines for the North west of England and Scotland via HS1 than travel via Waterloo and Euston

I assume you mean HS2. In which case, it is most likely that from the SWR area to Birmingham is likely to be quicker, with destinations beyond certainly bring quicker, via Heathrow and HS2 than by using XC services and almost certainly more frequent.

This will be especially true if you have easy access to Woking as you could then have 4tph to Old Oak Common (assuming that all those services extend through), meaning that the time spent waiting for trains could be less even though you have two changes to make rather than one (if you're not able to get directly onto a XC service). You would also likely have a wider choice of services each hour meaning that you could get the train before the one you have to get and only be a bit early rather than taking the last train that gets you there on time and being nearly an hour early.

Given all the above I could see XC becoming a regional railways service in terms of passenger journey times (even if the trains carry on running the same services) on their services to/through Reading.

 

[cle]

XC are basically already a regional service - they run 'long distance' between big cities but really they stop every 20 mins or so at smaller cities and larger towns, and act as faster commuter/regional services into bigger places. Which I think is fine, but there is a lack of 'fast' long distance services which don't originate in London. Arguably they should be augmented on each route with 1tph fast. And I include the Euston-B'ham-Scotland in this regional classification.

But HS2 should hopefully help in regards to the ex-Birmingham trains, at least.

 

[LeeLivery]

It's about choice I suppose - same Paddington/Waterloo journey times, but how about Bond St and TCR? Or Farringdon and Liverpool St... Crossrail will be more competitive (and direct, likely with seating) to many city destinations.

Plus I can see stopping patterns being tinkered with in future to quicken up journeys, as HEx decisions are made and as more Paddington terminators are sent west. The Connect journeys stop everywhere and are the T4 successors. Staines will be T5 - expect faster patterns like Ealing and Hayes only...

Waterloo might have the edge on Canary Wharf (guess that'd depend which part of it you need) and of course Victoria (via CJ), London Bridge and Bank though.

I'd be quite surprised if there are fast/semi-fast Staines to Paddington services. In the plan it looks like Basingstoke, Farnborough, etc., will but then it has to be asked whether there is capacity on the Great Western or whether the Heathrow Express could be scrapped in favour of services from the SW network.

Also it would be better to change at Staines for the North west of England and Scotland via HS1 than travel via Waterloo and Euston

Makes sense, totally forgot about HS2.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd be quite surprised if there are fast/semi-fast Staines to Paddington services. In the plan it looks like Basingstoke, Farnborough, etc., will but then it has to be asked whether there is capacity on the Great Western or whether the Heathrow Express could be scrapped in favour of services from the SW network.

Makes sense, totally forgot about HS2.

If you're saying that the Paddington services should go beyond Staines then I agree with you, for reasons including access to HS2.

I think the assumption is that trains from the South West would take over the four Heathrow Express paths into Paddington, providing a Paddington-Heathrow service stopping only at Old Oak and only slightly slower (but considerably less luxurious) than the existing Heathrow Express. This fits quite well with the expectation that Crossrail will take some of the Heathrow Express passengers but there's probably still a market for a fast Paddington service, and using it for flows such as Old Oak to Heathrow and Woking will help fill the train.

Crossrail might then run to Staines to provide more local connections.

 

[The Ham]

Personally I think that by running the trains as stopping services south/west of Woking (i.e. to Basingstoke and Guildford) it would maximise the number of people who could use it. As a lot of people from Basingstoke or Guildford beyond are likely to change at Woking so as to minimise journey times, but still without a significant delay to those who don't want to change trains.

It would also potentially allow to redirect one of the two trains each hour which form the Basingstoke Stoppers to increase capacity on an alternative route (for instance changing it to run to Farnham to provide 3tph on both routes, plus the extra services at Fleet and Farnborough).

Then in due course, if there were demand, once Crossrail 2 is built further services could be introduced. If there's not demand then it could allow more places with services.

The remaining Basingstoke Stoppers could, once electrification reaches Salisbury, be extended to Salisbury so as to increase frequencies between Basingstoke and Salisbury.

As such quite a few services could benefit without significant impact to the Heathrow Services, assuming that the alternative was a semi fast service.

 

[randompixel]

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/heathrow-airport-surrey-rail-link-14755761

Plans for a £375 million rail scheme linking Staines to Heathrow Airport have been backed by Spelthorne Borough Council.

The government has been welcoming bids from private companies to submit ideas for a new rail link connecting Heathrow Airport to the south of England.

... Except as the article highlights, they have a preference for elevated light rail between Heathrow and Staines Elmsleigh Centre.

That would put a bit of a downer on raillinks from Basingstoke and Guildford.

Edit - Full council page here: https://www.spelthorne.gov.uk/article/15979/Southern-Light-Rail-link

 

[The Ham]

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/heathrow-airport-surrey-rail-link-14755761



... Except as the article highlights, they have a preference for elevated light rail between Heathrow and Staines Elmsleigh Centre.

That would put a bit of a downer on raillinks from Basingstoke and Guildford.

Edit - Full council page here: https://www.spelthorne.gov.uk/article/15979/Southern-Light-Rail-link

An interesting suggestion, in that they don't want to have more rail services yet want to attract more people to Staines to use the light rail connection.

Conversely the NR proposals may have not had the trains going to Staines from all directions, however could have made access to Staines from Guildford, Woking and Basingstoke easier and so could make it a more attractive place for business to be located.

I would suggest that a train every 15 minutes wouldn't be that much worse than a light rail train every 6 minutes, in that most people would just turn up and go for either option and the difference of upto 10 minutes of journey time saving wouldn't make much difference to most people going to the airport. However given that there would be a change of trains (to a separate station) anyone from further afield this time saving would disappear or even result in a longer journey time.

I would suggest that from Guildford it could well be quicker to go to Reading and use the Western Approach.

Yes it's cheaper, but it would have significantly less benefits and would also have significantly less support from other areas.

As such the cost:benefit ratio is likely to be low with a low level of political support, meaning that is likely to end up being one of the lower options.

 

[Mollman]

A rival plan:
https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018...-proposal-for-windsor-link-railway-in-the-uk/

 

[swt_passenger]

A rival plan:
https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018...-proposal-for-windsor-link-railway-in-the-uk/

I don’t think it is a realistic rival to either Southern or Western access. It presumably cannot be competitive with Heathrow to Slough via Langley that Western Access will provide, so there’s most of its rationale wasted.

 

[Domh245]

Ah, that old Chestnut

2013 thread
2015 thread
2017 thread

General consensus is that it's a property development scheme masquerading as a railway project, and that there are a whole bunch of technical factors that'd make it incredibly difficult. On the plus side, perhaps they've realised that the initially suggested £150m won't cut it, and the price has gone up - although whether that is enough or not remains a question for the more learned members of the forum.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah, that old Chestnut

2013 thread
2015 thread
2017 thread

General consensus is that it's a property development scheme masquerading as a railway project, and that there are a whole bunch of technical factors that'd make it incredibly difficult. On the plus side, perhaps they've realised that the initially suggested £150m won't cut it, and the price has gone up - although whether that is enough or not remains a question for the more learned members of the forum.

Madder than Mad Jock McMad. Zero chance of happening.

 

[The Ham]

I received, via my local MP, a letter from DfT starting:

"The government recognises the importance of the a Southern Rail Link to Heathrow (SRLtH) and the benefits that new connectivity can provide to communities it would serve. This is why a new Southern Rail Link to Heathrow forms pay off the Government's long term aspirations for the railway"

Take from that what you will, but it would at least appear to be a scheme that is on their to-do list.

 

[Monty]

I received, via my local MP, a letter from DfT starting:

"The government recognises the importance of the a Southern Rail Link to Heathrow (SRLtH) and the benefits that new connectivity can provide to communities it would serve. This is why a new Southern Rail Link to Heathrow forms pay off the Government's long term aspirations for the railway"

Take from that what you will, but it would at least appear to be a scheme that is on their to-do list.

Sounds like politik speak for "We support such a scheme but we arn't going to pay for it."

 

[Shug]

Is this the same scheme that was being referred to as HS4AIR?

 

[matt_world2004]

I thought the crossrail terminal 5 services were going for the Heathrow Southern link. Due to it making more sense as an all stations stopper.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this the same scheme that was being referred to as HS4AIR?

No that was a high speed link between Heathrow and Gatwick. Fanciful.

 

[Shug]

No that was a high speed link between Heathrow and Gatwick. Fanciful.

Ah, ok thanks for the reply

 

[edwin_m]

I thought the crossrail terminal 5 services were going for the Heathrow Southern link. Due to it making more sense as an all stations stopper.

There are probably multiple options but the one I saw was for Crossrail to extend to Staines (no need for dual voltage trains, less likely disruption on the South Western will spread to Crossrail) and for the Hex paths to be extended as semi-fasts to Woking or beyond. That creates opportunities such as linking the SW suburban network to HS2.

 

[The Ham]

There are probably multiple options but the one I saw was for Crossrail to extend to Staines (no need for dual voltage trains, less likely disruption on the South Western will spread to Crossrail) and for the Hex paths to be extended as semi-fasts to Woking or beyond. That creates opportunities such as linking the SW suburban network to HS2.

Indeed, by changing at Woking to then catch one of the 4tph to Heathrow and onto OOC would make travel to Manchester, Leeds, Scotland, York or, to a lesser extent, Birmingham using HS2 lot quicker than using the XC services. This would benefit quite a large area of the SWR network, with some areas having an easier journey and most having a more frequent service option. (Of course the travel in the opposite direction would also be true)

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed, by changing at Woking to then catch one of the 4tph to Heathrow and onto OOC would make travel to Manchester, Leeds, Scotland, York or, to a lesser extent, Birmingham using HS2 lot quicker than using the XC services. This would benefit quite a large area of the SWR network, with some areas having an easier journey and most having a more frequent service option. (Of course the travel in the opposite direction would also be true)

It seems a much better idea than through-routeing the Hex paths to the Western Access, which doesn't create any new journey opportunities and just provides a slower alternative to the GWML.

 

[cle]

Agreed. But then what happens with Western access - those are threaded to OOC and Paddington high level?

Ancd would track (and wires?) to Staines be worth it for just Crossrail? Or are we also thinking of Waterloo services too, still?

 

[edwin_m]

Agreed. But then what happens with Western access - those are threaded to OOC and Paddington high level?

Ancd would track (and wires?) to Staines be worth it for just Crossrail? Or are we also thinking of Waterloo services too, still?

There are two unused platforms at T5 where Western Access could terminate, although I think the current option for Western Rail Link doesn't allow that. Or there might be space for a turnback siding just before the junction to the GWML towarsd Paddington, if capacity was available through T123.

The Paddington-Woking and Crossrail services would both use a new double track from Heathrow to the vicinity of Staines station where Crossrail would terminate (preferably on tracks with no conflict with the existing ones). The Wokings would continue southwards on whatever alignment was adopted - perhaps without platforms at Staines as Crossrail would provide enough service there. Waterloo trains would be a lower priority as diverting existing (faster) ones would deprive Reading or Windsor, and there's probably no capacity to run more via Barnes, so if anything it would be rejigging the "rounders" to provide an extra train via Staines. It would also require dual-voltage on a proportion of the South West fleet.