Heathrow Southern Link

[MPW]

Ianvisits posted an article today about Heathrow Southern link. Nothing really tangible, just that mayor supports it and vague reference to some other project or funding. Still interesting.

Mayor supports southern rail link to Heathrow Airport

The Mayor of London has indicated his support for a southern rail link to Heathrow Airport and suggested that there could be progress on getting something started.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

Previous threads on the topic are closed.

 

[PGAT]

Will this route be ran by South Western Railway or the Elizabeth Line?

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think that the Mayor of London could realistically say they don't support it. What would be the point?

 

[LUYMun]

Will this route be ran by South Western Railway or the Elizabeth Line?

More so, what would the speculative services be? If the North Downs line got electrified (or Guildford-Redhill at least) then it might be possible to run Gatwick-Heathrow services with a turnaround at Redhill.

 

[PGAT]

More so, what would the speculative services be? If the North Downs line got electrified (or Guildford-Redhill at least) then it might be possible to run Gatwick-Heathrow services with a turnaround at Redhill.

Probably 2tph for each branch. I don’t think there’s capacity or demand for anymore

Edit: I’m established now!

 

[JonathanH]

More so, what would the speculative services be? If the North Downs line got electrified (or Guildford-Redhill at least) then it might be possible to run Gatwick-Heathrow services with a turnaround at Redhill.

That would be too slow.

 

[Bald Rick]

If such a line was built, the service could only operate as an extension of either the Elizabeth line or Heathrow Express. It would also need the flyover at Woking to be built if the trains were heading towards Guildford or Basingstoke.

No chance of a service to Gatwick.

 

[adamedwards]

The problem with services on this axis is the number of level crossings and how long they would then stay shut due to an increase in trains, particularly services in the Virginia Water direction. Assuming that can be fixed, the place to send the Elizabeth line trains to would be Woking, as you then have one change onto the whole of SWR and in the other direction an easy change to Heathrow and Old Oak Common for HS2.

 

[PGAT]

I don’t think the Elizabeth Line would reach Woking as the journey would be too circuitous for most practical journeys. Staines would be more feasible and it’s already been proposed in the past

 

[LUYMun]

It would also need the flyover at Woking to be built if the trains were heading towards Guildford or Basingstoke.

Heathrow Southern trains (whichever brand they may be) can still function with or without the flyover. An extra 2tph (a conservative estimate) wouldn't put too much pressure on that junction.

No chance of a service to Gatwick.

Not as impossible as one thinks, you could be looking at HS4Air...

 

[PGAT]

Not as impossible as one thinks, you could be looking at HS4Air...

Or the infamous “Heath-wick” proposal

 

[Bald Rick]

Heathrow Southern trains (whichever brand they may be) can still function with or without the flyover. An extra 2tph (a conservative estimate) wouldn't put too much pressure on that junction.

it would.
The Heathrow Southern proposals all assumed that Woking flyover was already built (and paid for by others).

Not as impossible as one thinks, you could be looking at HS4Air...

I didn’t say it wasn’t possible. I just said it won’t happen.

 

[edwin_m]

I really don't see the point of Heathrow to Gatwick as an end to end route. Hub and spoke is declining anyway and few people will want to spend an hour or more transferring to a different airport.

T5 to Staines (probably extending Crossrail) would be operationally self-contained and open up a range of connections. Anything beyond that raises various capacity questions as mentioned - I think the most likely (or in current climate, least unlikely) would be to replace the Heathrow Express by a Paddington-OOC-Heathrow-Woking service. This has the advantage of opening up a big swathe south-west of London to HS2 via a change at OOC.

 

[MPW]

I really don't see the point of Heathrow to Gatwick as an end to end route. Hub and spoke is declining anyway and few people will want to spend an hour or more transferring to a different airport.

T5 to Staines (probably extending Crossrail) would be operationally self-contained and open up a range of connections. Anything beyond that raises various capacity questions as mentioned - I think the most likely (or in current climate, least unlikely) would be to replace the Heathrow Express by a Paddington-OOC-Heathrow-Woking service. This has the advantage of opening up a big swathe south-west of London to HS2 via a change at OOC.

I was thinking HEX to Surrey as well, given previous comments on capacity to the south the # of trains paths seems very similar to existing HEX.

An additional EL connection (or same new tracks as HEX) with terrminal platforms at staines or thereabouts would be a game changer for SW London and Surrey. Combining the two would create countless new direct connections and ones with only one change, bypassing central london.

Tempted to suggest EL carrying on to connect to the line through Kingston, maybe terminating at sudbury via A308 dual carriageway or along the space either side of the road (incl. Reservoir and canal). anyway, only tempted to suggest it

I can also see Windsor residents starting to demand EL services if anything goes anywhere near their line! Genuinely not suggesting that one, but will certainly be in the Windsor express (or whatever the local newspaper is called)

 

[stuu]

Not as impossible as one thinks, you could be looking at HS4Air...

Remind me, when does construction start?

 

[swt_passenger]

Heathrow Southern trains (whichever brand they may be) can still function with or without the flyover. An extra 2tph (a conservative estimate) wouldn't put too much pressure on that junction.

Not as impossible as one thinks, you could be looking at HS4Air...

Where’s the demand for Gatwick to Heathrow coming from? It’s a regularly touted idea, but who actually needs to do the journey? If needed, why won’t they go via Farringdon, likely to be just as fast anyway.

 

[MPW]

Where’s the demand for Gatwick to Heathrow coming from? It’s a regularly touted idea, but who actually needs to do the journey? If needed, why won’t they go via Farringdon, likely to be just as fast anyway.

With a southern link you can also change at clapham junction if coming from Gatwick, or anywhere on the south coast really. I'm sure that'd be faster than going via Redhill and Guildford even if it is a one seat journey.

A couple pretty unrelated questions if I may (probably had too much coffee this morning)
1. If a faster journey was desired from Clapham Junction to Staines, there is some space along the tracks for passing loops, but not really at stations. Are passing tracks even worthwhile if it can't be done at a station, generally speaking?
2. I notice the route from CLJ to Barnes is quad track: does anything actually bypass the stations on this route or are they all stopping services? I thought all fast trains went via Wimbledon.

 

[swt_passenger]

[…]
2. I notice the route from CLJ to Barnes is quad track: does anything actually bypass the stations on this route or are they all stopping services? I thought all fast trains went via Wimbledon.

Yes, the four tracks are used independently by slow and fast trains, but unusually they are “operated as” down fast, down slow, up fast, up slow. (The down pair are named the conventional way in the sectional appendix.)
Some platforms have very few trains stopping normally, eg if you look at Barnes itself on RTT, and filter on passenger calls, you’ll see they normally use P1 and P3, conversely passes are usually P2 and P4.

 

[PTR 444]

This should be done before the Western Link IMO. Passengers from Heathrow for Reading and points west can change at Old Oak Common. This will provide direct trains between Heathrow and destinations on the SWML which are popular flows but currently require a transfer in Central London.

I would personally build a grade separated alignment from Heathrow T5 to Virginia Water, joining up with and taking over the line to Weybridge. The Virginia Water - Weybridge/Byfleet Line would become exclusively used by extended Heathrow Express trains, while there would also be a spur to Staines for an Elizabeth Line extension.

My proposed service pattern:
4tph Elizabeth Line to Staines
2tph Paddington - OOC - Heathrow - Virginia Water - Chertsey - Addlestone - Weybridge
2tph Paddington - OOC - Heathrow - Woking

 

[SynthD]

Where will the ohle/dc changeover be, can it be under Heathrow?

The Virginia Water - Weybridge/Byfleet Line would become exclusively used by extended Heathrow Express trains

Where would the current Weybridge terminators go?

 

[PGAT]

Where would the current Weybridge terminators go?

The answer is the Weybridge terminators will almost certainly stay as is, everything else has to path around it

 

[PTR 444]

Where will the ohle/dc changeover be, can it be under Heathrow?

Where would the current Weybridge terminators go?

They could run to Reading, or Windsor with Reading via Twickenham becoming 4tph. My idea is that the Weybridge - Virginia Water Line becomes locked into Heathrow Southern Link, avoiding any crossover moves to/from the Reading - Waterloo Line

 

[cle]

Being slow, they could likely run back via Richmond or via Wimbledon - or both. They could all be loopers.

I really don't get the airport to airport demand, it's super niche and a weird fetish on here. Virgin Atlantic people had the honour of being based on Crawley (having since left LGW during the pandy, annoying for staff!) but most flying from LHR. But that is so edge, and they put on buses.

Demand-wise, airport rail should be modelled around staff. Traffic and decarbonization - passengers, i.e. less cabs and kiss n fly. But connecting passengers, non-existent. I would think domestic visitors to 'airport hotel conferences' would rank higher!

As for the Southern Rail Link, it's solid but I understood that heading west would be a non-starter due to the various level crossings at Egham and Wokingham. If those are discarded, these plans look great. If those still matter, we're headed towards Feltham only. In that case, I'd think 2tph via Hounslow good for local journeys, as well as the main services via Richmond to Waterloo. Question - what is the minimum tph going to be to justify an investment. I would think nothing less than 4tph, but ideally 6tph.

HEx/Crossrail to Staines, I could see an additional 2tph using the link, with wires all the way to Staines (where bi-mode/third rail switch would need to occur for the SW services)

 

[PTR 444]

Another option could be to have a multi-level “Staines Parkway” station where the Heathrow Southern Link crosses the Staines - Windsor Line. Not sure if it would be any cheaper than building a Heathrow - Staines chord though.

 

[PGAT]

Trouble with the Elizabeth Line is that any capacity you add to Terminal 5 and beyond the less there would be on the rest of the network. Currently there are 2tph to Terminal 5, 4tph to Terminal 4 and 6tph (peak) towards Maidenhead.

If the aforementioned 4tph Staines, 2tph Woking, 2tph Weybridge pattern went ahead that would mean only 2tph could head to Terminal 4 and Reading and the network couldn’t cope

 

[PTR 444]

Trouble with the Elizabeth Line is that any capacity you add to Terminal 5 and beyond the less there would be on the rest of the network. Currently there are 2tph to Terminal 5, 4tph to Terminal 4 and 6tph (peak) towards Maidenhead.

If the aforementioned 4tph Staines, 2tph Woking, 2tph Weybridge pattern went ahead that would mean only 2tph could head to Terminal 4 and Reading and the network couldn’t cope

Ahh that makes sense. In that case 2tph to Staines should be fine, or alternatively with a Staines Parkway station send the Elizabeth Line to Weybridge and make the 4tph Heathrow Expresses fast from Heathrow to Woking.

 

[SynthD]

Twickenham/Hounslow and Staines and Virginia Water have built up traffic from being linked together, don’t break that.

If there’s no funding for Woking, maybe Westminster/Surrey can pay for more platforms at Weybridge. Close that unnamed car park and replace it with only buses.

 

[RobShipway]

If there was a Southern link, it would go through Staines and would be part of the Elizabeth line with trains going into London Waterloo. I doubt that there will be trains going to Weybridge from London Paddington or to anywhere else to be honest.

 

[PTR 444]

If there was a Southern link, it would go through Staines and would be part of the Elizabeth line with trains going into London Waterloo. I doubt that there will be trains going to Weybridge from London Paddington or to anywhere else to be honest.

Surely Heathrow to Woking should be a priority? If money was no object there’d be a dedicated line all the way, but there isn’t so joining it up with the Virginia Water - Weybridge Line makes the most practical sense.

Elizabeth Line trains from Staines to Waterloo on the other hand is just absurd. Where are the extra paths going to come from on the Reading - Waterloo Line, and what about all the level crossings that will be down for much longer? It’d make much more sense to run the existing Hounslow loop trains into Heathrow.

 

[PGAT]

Surely Heathrow to Woking should be a priority? If money was no object there’d be a dedicated line all the way, but there isn’t so joining it up with the Virginia Water - Weybridge Line makes the most practical sense.

Space is also an issue. In practice the Byfleet curve would be the closest route in/out of Woking unless you dug a tunnel underneath the entire town