Heavy rail passenger service to Manchester Trafford Centre

[HowardGWR]

Looking at the exceedingly large number of people who travel to the Trafford Centre at present, what percentage of these would be expected to use a train service, which usually means travelling from their homes to the nearest railway station that offers a direct connection from there to the Trafford Centre, rather than travelling directly there by car from their homes?

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase..."Living above your station"...

Indeed. If these OOT centres are now deemed to be exacerbating global warming, given that such a measure as denying use of the car parks (the idea!), the only way for authorities to succeed would be to allow planning permission for a nearby centre that has no parking, has good public transport connections and is subsidised in some clever ways, so as to make the OOT centres unprofitable. Not going to happen.

So I think the authorities have to bite the bullet and extend far more lines to places like Trafford, Merry Hill, Cribbs, Bluewater, etc, with park and ride facilities near where more rural dwellers are coming from.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surely the sensible thing to do with the Trafford Centre (Apart from the proposed Metrolink), would be to put on a dedicated shuttle service between Eccles and Urmston station that went via the Trafford Centre and the whole Trafford commercial area including Chil Factor and Event City. That way people could get to it from the Retail and Leisure facilities from the CLC or the Chat Moss Route....

Four bus routes already link Eccles with the Trafford Centre, 22, 52, 68 and 100, the first also serving Urmston and last also serving Warrington, Irlam, Salford Crescent, Salford Central and Manchester Victoria. The 23 also goes from the Trafford Centre to Urmston.

The 247 links Altrincham and Flixton with the Trafford Centre.

....Saying that having been once to the T/Centre in my life I don't know why anyone would ever choose to go there of their own free will. If you have got on the train to go shopping I would much rather go to either Liverpool or Manchester City center than to the Trafford Centre.

It used to have a TMC store, long ago now......

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed. If these OOT centres are now deemed to be exacerbating global warming, given that such a measure as denying use of the car parks (the idea!), the only way for authorities to succeed would be to allow planning permission for a nearby centre that has no parking, has good public transport connections and is subsidised in some clever ways, so as to make the OOT centres unprofitable. Not going to happen.

So I think the authorities have to bite the bullet and extend far more lines to places like Trafford, Merry Hill, Cribbs, Bluewater, etc, with park and ride facilities near where more rural dwellers are coming from.

Given that a Metrolink line to Trafford Centre is coming, it would be interesting to see what proportion of footfall to Meadowhall is by tram/train/bus as opposed to car. I'd hazard a guess that travel from Sheffield city centre to Meadowhall is small, and most arriving by train will be from further afield on the routes that are well-served (Barnsley, Doncaster and beyond). The trams I'd guess carry reasonable volume from the other branches of the system. The car is obviously going to be the main mode from areas that don't have a convenient alternative (the far side of Huddersfield, Leeds, etc.) and even from those that do for those that have access to a car, due to the convenience of being able to get large volumes of purchases right to the door.

My parents live in Skelmanthorpe near Huddersfield, not far from Denby Dale and Shepley stations on the Penistone Line but as they both have cars, that will always be the first option for a trip to Meadowhall. If I'm house/cat-sitting for them I'm happy to use the train as I currently don't own a car but even when I did I thought nothing of driving the one mile or so to DBD to use the train. I'm in the minority there though, if we want to cut down on car use there needs to be a lot of "carrot" and a little bit of "stick" too.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed. If these OOT centres are now deemed to be exacerbating global warming, given that such a measure as denying use of the car parks (the idea!), the only way for authorities to succeed would be to allow planning permission for a nearby centre that has no parking, has good public transport connections and is subsidised in some clever ways, so as to make the OOT centres unprofitable. Not going to happen.

A more realistic measure would perhaps be to compel these kinds of shopping centres to charge for parking (perhaps, with the income so derived invested back into public transport). In today's climate that might perhaps be too unpopular for any major political party to risk proposing, but given the huge damage done to other people by car journeys, it would arguably not be unreasonable. Maybe in 10-20 years time, the political climate around cars might have evolved sufficiently to make something like that more likely?

 

[telstarbox]

IIRC people spend more money (and stay for longer) on a single trip to Bluewater/the TC than they do in town centres. If you're already planning to spend a few hours and £100+ in the shops then another £5 for parking won't put a lot of people off.

 

[JohnB57]

A more realistic measure would perhaps be to compel these kinds of shopping centres to charge for parking (perhaps, with the income so derived invested back into public transport). In today's climate that might perhaps be too unpopular for any major political party to risk proposing, but given the huge damage done to other people by car journeys, it would arguably not be unreasonable. Maybe in 10-20 years time, the political climate around cars might have evolved sufficiently to make something like that more likely?

I think it needs far more vision than the usual "tax the motorist" approach that most governments and councils have adopted as panic measures.

It's exactly that kind of pretzel logic that has resulted in town centres such as Huddersfield for example dying a slow lingering death. If you want to compromise out of town shopping centres and the massive contribution they make to local economies in the same way, make it more difficult and expensive for people to visit. They'll just find somewhere else to spend their money.

 

[A0wen]

Indeed. If these OOT centres are now deemed to be exacerbating global warming, given that such a measure as denying use of the car parks (the idea!), the only way for authorities to succeed would be to allow planning permission for a nearby centre that has no parking, has good public transport connections and is subsidised in some clever ways, so as to make the OOT centres unprofitable. Not going to happen.

And such a centre would be highly unpopular and probably fail due to lack of use - people don't want to be lugging their shopping home on a train or bus. It might have been acceptable in the 50s or 60s, but people no longer will accept that.

You've already seen a massive move away from traditional 'bricks & mortar' retail and town centres have been in decline in part due to the poor choice of shops - which in turn is driven by the poor choice of store units (yet everyone whinges about redevelopment) and in part due to the excessive and obstructive parking charges many councils have imposed.

Unless councils make shopping centres easily accessible in the way THE MAJORITY of people want access them they will fail. And send customers into the hands of the online retailers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And such a centre would be highly unpopular and probably fail due to lack of use - people don't want to be lugging their shopping home on a train or bus. It might have been acceptable in the 50s or 60s, but people no longer will accept that.

Well said indeed. If you are going to a very large retail location such as the Trafford Centre, it may be that there are small sized household items to purchase, items of clothing, etc, that you want to buy after physically seeing them, which you can then put in your car boot and the next time that you need to handle them will be when you are at home.

Posting made from the personal knowledge of having this happen on a regular basis.

 

[Haydn1971]

A more realistic measure would perhaps be to compel these kinds of shopping centres to charge for parking (perhaps, with the income so derived invested back into public transport).

I'd suggest that horse has well and truly bolted now... Realistic measures now would be to introduce a slowly increasing public transport levy based upon business rates on all retail that invests back into regional investment funds for direct improvements into public transport schemes and select non-public transport schemes that can demonstrate an indirect benefit to public transport.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd suggest that horse has well and truly bolted now... Realistic measures now would be to introduce a slowly increasing public transport levy based upon business rates on all retail that invests back into regional investment funds for direct improvements into public transport schemes and select non-public transport schemes that can demonstrate an indirect benefit to public transport.

You need an awful lot of those levies to make a dent in the capital cost of public transport schemes though. The whole of London is paying a business rate levy (all non domestic property with a rateable value over £55k) for Crossrail. For around 30 years. And that pays for a quarter of Crossrail.

A business rate levy in just retail property out of town would barely scratch the surface of anything except perhaps a bus priority scheme.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think it needs far more vision than the usual "tax the motorist" approach that most governments and councils have adopted as panic measures. It's exactly that kind of pretzel logic that has resulted in town centres such as Huddersfield for example dying a slow lingering death. If you want to compromise out of town shopping centres and the massive contribution they make to local economies in the same way, make it more difficult and expensive for people to visit. They'll just find somewhere else to spend their money.

If some people's ideas of "the old days were the best", we would all be shopping at outdoor market stalls, totally unprotected from the weather...

 

[8A Rail]

I must have been seeing mirages if that be the case as I have stood in the bus shelter at Stevenson Square in Manchester City Centre and seen both the V1 service to Leigh and the V2 service to Atherton there....

But the "Busway" don't so why build it in the first place for something that won't reach its ultimate destination! Sorry, it is crazy and sheer waste of money! Yes I dont like buses either!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think it needs far more vision than the usual "tax the motorist" approach that most governments and councils have adopted as panic measures.

It's exactly that kind of pretzel logic that has resulted in town centres such as Huddersfield for example dying a slow lingering death. If you want to compromise out of town shopping centres and the massive contribution they make to local economies in the same way, make it more difficult and expensive for people to visit. They'll just find somewhere else to spend their money.

I'm not sure I agree that Huddersfield is "dying a slow and lingering death" as you say, certainly not to the extent that other similar centres in the area such as Halifax and Dewsbury are. Sure, there's too many pound shops and the like, but much like the housing rental market that's down to landlords being unwilling to accept that they need to lower their rates to a level that's sustainable.

Back to the Trafford Centre, the only way a heavy rail link would succeed would be if it went beyond there to another centre of population such as Bolton. If such a link was already in place it would be a success but building it from scratch is a step too far. Perhaps extending the Metrolink line beyond there to a large park and ride site next to the M60, coupled with increased parking charges in central Manchester (which on my last visit compared very favourably with charges in Leeds and Bristol to name but two) would help in terms of easing congestion and pollution in the city.

 

[Haydn1971]

A business rate levy in just retail property out of town would barely scratch the surface of anything except perhaps a bus priority scheme.

You don't need to spend £15Bn to make a dent in public transport services - bus priority and secured funding for quality bus services would be sufficient for many urban areas outside of greater London and the core cities. The larger schemes always have a better business case and don't need to be helped by third party funding.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think it needs far more vision than the usual "tax the motorist" approach that most governments and councils have adopted as panic measures.

I agree with you to the extent that you do need more vision, and other measures too, but that doesn't present charging from being part of the solution too.

It's exactly that kind of pretzel logic that has resulted in town centres such as Huddersfield for example dying a slow lingering death. If you want to compromise out of town shopping centres and the massive contribution they make to local economies in the same way, make it more difficult and expensive for people to visit. They'll just find somewhere else to spend their money.

I don't think your logic works. One of the biggest problems right now is the lack of a level playing field between traditional town centres and out-of-town places like the Trafford Centre, and what I'm suggesting (requiring all shopping centres to charge for parking, with the money raised going to fund public transport schemes etc.) would even that up.

Councils, as you say, use parking charges and other measures to encourage people to use public transport to get to town centres. But the trouble is - because the out-of-town places remain free, motorists simply side-step the charges by going to the out-of-town places instead. That is what is killing many town centres, and what I'm suggesting would actually solve that: If all shopping centres were required to charge for parking - so that you know that if you choose to drive, then you'll pay similar fees to park wherever you go, then it's more likely that those people who are reasonably able to use public transport would do so. It also means that people are more likely to go to their local shopping centres, instead of driving miles away to get to one where the parking is free - so this would be to the benefit of many local shopping centres, including town centres.

Sure, some people might choose to buy online instead - and if online retailers can serve those people's needs better, then that's arguably not a bad thing. The large numbers of people who are going shopping because they like shopping - will continue to do so, but would be more likely to do so locally, or in those shopping centres that they can get to without driving. Obviously, those who are buying stuff that is too bulky/heavy to take on public transport, or who live in places that require driving will continue to do so, and will use the paid parking - in the process perhaps making a fairer contribution to society to cover the various environmental costs that other people have to bear as a result of their car journeys.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.
Obviously, those who are buying stuff that is too bulky/heavy to take on public transport, or who live in places that require driving will continue to do so, and will use the paid parking - in the process perhaps making a fairer contribution to society to cover the various environmental costs that other people have to bear as a result of their car journeys.

I can see certain legal challenges being made by organisations such as intu to such a parking fee being imposed upon them in terms of how the legal agreements were first made between the authority in question and those who developed these large retail outlets.

One way out of this would be that the local authority concerned who wished to impose parking charges on private land not owned by them, such as the car parks at the Trafford Centre, would be to purchase the car park land at the current prevailing land price costs from those who own the land occupied by the existing car parks and also to be responsible for the upkeep and the security provision of them after such a purchase.

 

[6Gman]

But the "Busway" don't so why build it in the first place for something that won't reach its ultimate destination! Sorry, it is crazy and sheer waste of money! Yes I dont like buses either!

The busway was built on a stretch of disused railway. Which was between Leigh and Ellenbrook. Not Manchester City Centre.

That's why it's not in Manchester!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But the "Busway" don't so why build it in the first place for something that won't reach its ultimate destination! Sorry, it is crazy and sheer waste of money! Yes I dont like buses either!

I appear not to follow your logic...:roll: Where exactly to your way of thinking is "its ultimate destination"?

The term "Leigh Guided Busway" is used to describe a route that currently runs in to the heart of the city of Manchester and as others have stated, in doing so, utilised the disused track bed of the Tyldesley Loop Line, which lay dormant since closure and which is now being used for a mode of public transport once again.

 

[8A Rail]

The busway was built on a stretch of disused railway. Which was between Leigh and Ellenbrook. Not Manchester City Centre.
That's why it's not in Manchester!

Precisely! That is the point, build a busway on former trackbed to save a few minutes, when most of the journey is still on normal roads! Why? If dont make sense. Had it been the Metro Tram which would go the whole route, then it makes sense. Yes it would be more expensive but far more chance of getting people off the roads which is the reason for doing so in the first instance, with in the long run I find, make it more economically viable too.

I appear not to follow your logic...:roll: Where exactly to your way of thinking is "its ultimate destination"?
The term "Leigh Guided Busway" is used to describe a route that currently runs in to the heart of the city of Manchester and as others have stated, in doing so, utilised the disused track bed of the Tyldesley Loop Line, which lay dormant since closure and which is now being used for a mode of public transport once again.

I thought the "ultimate destination" is obvious - Manchester City Centre, where else would it be? In regards to your second comment - the Guided Busway does NOT currently run into the heart of the city, does it? It only for a few miles from Leigh (old track bed or not) before it returns back to the normal roads!

Just say we agree to disagree - the Guided Busway scheme is a waste of money, serves no real purpose other than save a few minutes at the beginning of the journey from Leigh.

 

[6Gman]

Precisely! That is the point, build a busway on former trackbed to save a few minutes, when most of the journey is still on normal roads!

the Guided Busway scheme is a waste of money, serves no real purpose other than save a few minutes at the beginning of the journey from Leigh.

It saves a few minutes on the journey! It achieves its purpose! It brings the journey time from Leigh down to 55 minutes, broadly comparable to the time the tram takes from Rochdale - but at a fraction of the cost.

Or are you suggesting they should have bulldozed swathes of Swinton and Pendleton to save more time?

 

[Greenback]

Let's keep the discussion on topic folks. Talk of busways should be in the appropriate sub forum.

 

[Intercity 225]

Thanks for all the replies so far - another interesting read.

 

[Bevan Price]

I must have been seeing mirages if that be the case as I have stood in the bus shelter at Stevenson Square in Manchester City Centre and seen both the V1 service to Leigh and the V2 service to Atherton there....

The buses do run into the city centre - and suffer traffic congestion there. The actual misguided busway consists of just over 4 miles of concrete at the "quiet" end of the route (Leigh / Tyldesley / Ellenbrook.) Buses then use normal roads between Ellenbrook & Manchester, including many miles of the A580, a multi-lane road afflicted with an incredibly stupid 40 mph speed limit.

 

[TBSchenker]

A couple of photos to illustrate part of the line, I'm not sure this train runs all the way through to Barton Dock Road anymore, the few times I've been past the tracks look remarkably unkept.

09002 trips from Trafford Park Freightliner terminal across Barton Dock Road (14/10/2011)



A few months later, 09009 crosses Barton Dock Road heading towards Trafford Park Freightliner terminal. (01/12/2011)



A quick one of the depot for the Class 09s at Barton Dock Road.

 

[8A Rail]

A couple of photos to illustrate part of the line, I'm not sure this train runs all the way through to Barton Dock Road anymore, the few times I've been past the tracks look remarkably unkept.

As far as I am aware, no trains have operated to Barton Terminal for at least two / three years.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let's keep the discussion on topic folks. Talk of busways should be in the appropriate sub forum.

Thanks to whoever it was on the forum staff who made this thread title read more logically.

 

[D869]

One of the biggest problems right now is the lack of a level playing field between traditional town centres and out-of-town places like the Trafford Centre, and what I'm suggesting (requiring all shopping centres to charge for parking, with the money raised going to fund public transport schemes etc.) would even that up.

Councils, as you say, use parking charges and other measures to encourage people to use public transport to get to town centres. But the trouble is - because the out-of-town places remain free, motorists simply side-step the charges by going to the out-of-town places instead. That is what is killing many town centres, and what I'm suggesting would actually solve that: If all shopping centres were required to charge for parking - so that you know that if you choose to drive, then you'll pay similar fees to park wherever you go, then it's more likely that those people who are reasonably able to use public transport would do so. It also means that people are more likely to go to their local shopping centres, instead of driving miles away to get to one where the parking is free - so this would be to the benefit of many local shopping centres, including town centres.

Well said. The only place where parking is truly "free" is on the Monopoly board. Everywhere else it's the non-motorist and the environment that pays the price.

Quoting from its website "Trafford Centre has free (sic) parking for 11,500 cars." A charge of £1 for up to 1 hour would not be much at all. Allowing for time when vacant, let's suppose the Retail Parking Charge is £5 per space per day, applicable to all parking above some minimum so that small local shops are excluded.

The Trafford Centre alone would generate over £20 million per year, which should be ring-fenced for spending on high-quality non-polluting public transport, cycling and walking. Adding the thousands of other so-called "free" parking spaces in the Manchester area and we are talking serious money that could make a real impact. Not just in large cities, either, much smaller urban areas have uncharged parking spaces in four figures.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Could the Council impose a toll road or congestion charge zone?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Could the Council impose a toll road or congestion charge zone?

If you think that any of those two ideas will be seen as an imposition upon the city residents and will be greeted with delight, then all you need to remember is that when the last time that a two-band congestion charge was put to a referendum in the ten council authorities that go to make up "Greater Manchester", every single area, even the rock-solid Labour areas of Manchester, Salford and Wigan, voted overwhelmingly against that scenario. That referendum put the case that monies raised from the congestion-charge levy would be used in the expansion of the Manchester Metrolink system, but that had no effect whatsoever on those who saw their pockets being hit as car users, just to see a tram system that would not serve many of the areas in the referendum coverage.

The word "impose" is not one that neither GMCA nor TfGM would want to be connected with. With regard to the proposed toll road, where would the contractual finance be sourced, as the finance methodology used to build the still-to-be approved Trafford Park Metrolink line is not a bottomless pit of money to be used.

 

[edwin_m]

Unfortunately many motorists have a sense of entitlement that leads them to expect they can drive and park where they wish, without additional charge or impediment. Of course if everyone did that in a city like Manchester it would simply cease to function.