Heinz Factory near Wigan to get its own siding?

[Dr Hoo]

It might have been thought that the Wigan-Southport line would be a relatively early candidate for electrification as little more than 'infill'. (Yes, I know about the bridge at Wallgate but that is going to have to re-built at some point anyway.)

How does lineside loading and unloading of containers and swap-bodies work with that?

 

[zwk500]

It might have been thought that the Wigan-Southport line would be a relatively early candidate for electrification as little more than 'infill'. (Yes, I know about the bridge at Wallgate but that is going to have to re-built at some point anyway.)

How does lineside loading and unloading of containers and swap-bodies work with that?

Lifting containers, presumably not very well. Curtain-sider swap bodies could, in theory, have the pallets loaded/unloaded by forklift rather than needing the entire thing taking off the wagon.

 

[terryc]

I'm still curious as to how the return journey will be made? As there is no longer a loop at Burscough Bridge, then is it a trip all the way to Southport to run around?

 

[zwk500]

I'm still curious as to how the return journey will be made? As there is no longer a loop at Burscough Bridge, then is it a trip all the way to Southport to run around?

Running round at Southport limits the train length because of the arrangement of crossovers to access the loop (you have to shunt in via the platform). That may be acceptable, or the other way to do it would be to top & tail the train and reverse using the crossover at Parbold.

 

[mmh]

You can, engineering periods permitting, which is why I said it will likely end up as a pad.

You've said "a pad" twice now. I appreciate it isn't, presumably, an acronym so the usual forum etiquette of explaining those might not apply, but I think it'd be useful if you would explain what a pad is please. Thank you.

 

[Elecman]

You've said "a pad" twice now. I appreciate it isn't, presumably, an acronym so the usual forum etiquette of explaining those might not apply, but I think it'd be useful if you would explain what a pad is please. Thank you.

A pad is an area of hard standing (usually concrete ) installed parallel to the track that enables forktrucks to run upto the train to load/unload, and to turn safely

 

[AndrewE]

It might have been thought that the Wigan-Southport line would be a relatively early candidate for electrification as little more than 'infill'. (Yes, I know about the bridge at Wallgate but that is going to have to re-built at some point anyway.)

How does lineside loading and unloading of containers and swap-bodies work with that?

post #1 says

Of the experiment, a Kraft-Heinz spokesman said: “The trial was a simulation which involved a locomotive and 30 unloaded cradles.
“There was no need to run actual containers as there were no means to unload at this stage.

"Cradles" sounds like the Post Office's trolleys of trays of mail which their EMUs were built around. Mind you, there are articulated lorries which can handle containers, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidelifter .

 

[matacaster]

Should be a class 57 for Heinz

Yes, but they need varieties.

 

[L+Y]

I'm still curious as to how the return journey will be made? As there is no longer a loop at Burscough Bridge, then is it a trip all the way to Southport to run around?

Running round at Southport limits the train length because of the arrangement of crossovers to access the loop (you have to shunt in via the platform). That may be acceptable, or the other way to do it would be to top & tail the train and reverse using the crossover at Parbold.

I'd wondered this too. If bi-di signalling is too expensive, I can't see much alternative to either a run round at Southport or a top and tail crossover at Parbold?

 

[terryc]

I'd wondered this too. If bi-di signalling is too expensive, I can't see much alternative to either a run round at Southport or a top and tail crossover at Parbold?

I did also think about this, but wouldn't top and tailing increase (double?) the carbon footprint of the service, which goes against the initial principle of the whole concept?

 

[edwin_m]

I did also think about this, but wouldn't top and tailing increase (double?) the carbon footprint of the service, which goes against the initial principle of the whole concept?

It wouldn't double but it would increase the carbon footprint (the rear locomotive would be dead). More significantly it would increase costs because the second locomotive would be charged to the operation.

If there's no passenger service running, couldn't they run to just west of the next crossover, secure the train on the running line and run the locomotive on to the crossover after that to come back on the other line, then couple up and use the original crossover to gain correct line?

 

[The Planner]

I did also think about this, but wouldn't top and tailing increase (double?) the carbon footprint of the service, which goes against the initial principle of the whole concept?

It will come down to £££ at the end of the day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A pad is an area of hard standing (usually concrete ) installed parallel to the track that enables forktrucks to run upto the train to load/unload, and to turn safely

Is that similar to what Vivarail had in mind in the early days when their diesel traction items could be changed by a fork-lift truck on an lineside area of hard standing?

 

[zwk500]

It wouldn't double but it would increase the carbon footprint (the rear locomotive would be dead). More significantly it would increase costs because the second locomotive would be charged to the operation.

If there's no passenger service running, couldn't they run to just west of the next crossover, secure the train on the running line and run the locomotive on to the crossover after that to come back on the other line, then couple up and use the original crossover to gain correct line?

In theory, yes. But leaving wagons on the mainline without a loco attached means things like screwing handbrakes down in case the air pressure leaks off. Also it'll take quite a long time to bring the train up to Parbold, detach the loco and secure the wagons, then wait while it runs to Southport and back to get on the eastern end of the train. Either option involving a runround requires a second member of staff as well, whereas top/tail operation requires only a 2nd loco - somewhat easier to manage as they don't need breaks or run out of hours in the same way drivers do.
As The Planner says, it'll come down to costs at the end of the day - a train with a loco on each end is still more efficient than the equivalent lorry journeys.

 

[ic31420]

With all these questions regarding running round and what not, then the mention of cages. I can't help but wondering if this is a service for which FMUs are being considered.

Weight of the product would be my only concern, thinking that 769s or convert FMUs would have a limited payload. But might be idea for a proof of concept.

It's been a while since I was in a foody warehouse but don't Heinz use their own bespoke "pallets" / "crates" for at least some tinned goods?

And while we're at it...

Beenz Beenz the more you eat, the more you freight.

If it is a 769 with 2 pallets on, the driver will have to give it some beans!

 

[zwk500]

With all these questions regarding running round and what not, then the mention of cages. I can't help but wondering if this is a service for which FMUs are being considered.

Weight of the product would be my only concern, thinking that 769s or convert FMUs would have a limited payload. But might be idea for a proof of concept.

The quote in the OP suggested they were looking at wagons and a loco, as that was what they trialled. Given this would be part of their bulk logistics flows I'd be surprised if they wanted to go to the effort of transhipping the contents of a container/swapbody at Hull onto a 769. It's not impossible, but the Orion-type operation is geared towards small parcel consignments for companies like Hermes and Amazon rather than big bulk loads that Heinz are looking at.
If Heinz were looking at shifting their local end distribution with a cage or 2 at each station to rail then a 769 would make sense, but the article is pretty clear that's not what's being looked at for this proposal.

 

[ic31420]

Fair point well made I rather quickly skim read the op with a toddler chewing my ear.

 

[zwk500]

Fair point well made I rather quickly skim read the op with a toddler chewing my ear.

No worries, the local news article does refer to 'a locomotive and carriages' so you could be forgiven for thinking the 769s may have come into it on first glance!

 

[Brian1947]

With all these questions regarding running round and what not, then the mention of cages. I can't help but wondering if this is a service for which FMUs are being considered.

Weight of the product would be my only concern, thinking that 769s or convert FMUs would have a limited payload. But might be idea for a proof of concept.

It's been a while since I was in a foody warehouse but don't Heinz use their own bespoke "pallets" / "crates" for at least some tinned goods?

And while we're at it...

Beenz Beenz the more you eat, the more you freight.

If it is a 769 with 2 pallets on, the driver will have to give it some beans!

The vast majority of their products, either imported or manufactured at Kitt Green, use standard GKN 1200 x 1000mm pallets. The crates you refer to were used for some products destined for Tesco and termed “dollies” but I do not know if they are still used.

Have potential volumes been discussed yet? Daily, weekly or monthly? Guess not the latter as a lot of capital spend for little return.

 

[The Ham]

The vast majority of their products, either imported or manufactured at Kitt Green, use standard GKN 1200 x 1000mm pallets. The crates you refer to were used for some products destined for Tesco and termed “dollies” but I do not know if they are still used.

Have potential volumes been discussed yet? Daily, weekly or monthly? Guess not the latter as a lot of capital spend for little return.

Although not the point of the trail, presumably if it results in a semi regular service, if it's not daily there could (and I'm fully into playing with my crayons here) potentially be scope for export from the site as well as import. For example taking tins to a Tesco depot or for travel to mainland Europe.

Whether that would be using the same trains or another would presumably depends on quite a number of factors.

 

[driverd]

Just a quick generic question - why does the construction of a simple siding rack up such a hefty bill? For instance, why could a siding not be built and operated privately by Heinz, with the only fee to NR being to construct and instate a set of points? Or is that where the costs come in (signalling etc one presumes)?

At circa £14m, they don't half like to disincentivise access to the infrastructure!

 

[Donny_m]

I don’t understand why a pad of concrete and a hundreds metres of rail line can be tens of millions.
Imagine the mansion with quad garage, indoor and outdoor pool, and helipad you could build for £14m.

Google £5m, £10m property and you’ll see.

I thought exactly the same when they announced how much a 2 car long platform and no building would be for Portway Park and ride station in Bristol.

Can you imagine ringing up a building firm and saying you want a 60m length of 3 foot high concrete and a little path running too it, would be 10-20 grand if that.

 

[The Ham]

Just a quick generic question - why does the construction of a simple siding rack up such a hefty bill? For instance, why could a siding not be built and operated privately by Heinz, with the only fee to NR being to construct and instate a set of points? Or is that where the costs come in (signalling etc one presumes)?

At circa £14m, they don't half like to disincentivise access to the infrastructure!

I don't recall the figures, (IIRC £3 million) but the signals required to allow the Swanage Railway to have NR signals to gain access to the branch was going to cost a few million when NR were replacing the whole lot of the signalling in the area anyway. That would increase significantly if it was adding to existing signals.

 

[Gloster]

There are difficulties caused by ensuring the safety of construction workers, rail staff and passengers; preventing damage to the railway infrastructure; and the enormous amount of approvals that are required. However, Network Rail seems to have lost the plot when it comes to developing rail. A philosophy of being more interested in maximising its own profits (and those of contractors, with whom (I consider) it to be too closely entwined), rather than the future of rail.

 

[driverd]

I don't recall the figures, (IIRC £3 million) but the signals required to allow the Swanage Railway to have NR signals to gain access to the branch was going to cost a few million when NR were replacing the whole lot of the signalling in the area anyway. That would increase significantly if it was adding to existing signals.

The £14m figure came from the 3rd or 4th reply to the thread on page 1.

Why it's into the millions is what escapes me. Naturally NR will need 536 consultants, each charging 3 times the cost of the actual work, but in principle this should be a doddle. Throw in a set of points, stop board on entry, stop board with PL/shunt disk as appropriate and a phone (or just use GSMR) for departure, motorised trap points before access to mainline, bish bash bosh, that's your lot.

(Yes I know I'm being facetious please no one take this seriously). I would, however, love to see/hear a genuine breakdown of cost though.

 

[zwk500]

The £14m figure came from the 3rd or 4th reply to the thread on page 1.

Why it's into the millions is what escapes me. Naturally NR will need 536 consultants, each charging 3 times the cost of the actual work, but in principle this should be a doddle. Throw in a set of points, stop board on entry, stop board with PL/shunt disk as appropriate and a phone (or just use GSMR) for departure, motorised trap points before access to mainline, bish bash bosh, that's your lot.

(Yes I know I'm being facetious please no one take this seriously). I would, however, love to see/hear a genuine breakdown of cost though.

It's impossible to give a genuine breakdown of costs without somebody sitting down and doing the work, which they would then need to charge the project for!

The project would need to pay for everything, from Surveys to the design work to the line block to the rails to the person who has to update each and every document to include all the changes for future maintenance/enhancements. As a new project it will need to meet modern standards and be assured to that level. It takes time to gather the information, work out solutions and come up with a final design, then it has to be checked by drivers and signallers to make sure the signals can be seen and the signallers can set the routes. Once that's been done, the line will need to be blocked and the signalling altered when the points go in, and everything tested to make sure it all works as it should. Then there's clearup and final fettling, and meanwhile somebody's been going through several hundred documents to make sure everything is up to date and accurate.

NR has it's own in-house consultants, and they cost the company a lot less than going through private sector companies. A passenger line cannot be protected by a stop board, it needs an aspect that can be proved, and trap points need to be designed so that a derail train is not sent into a lorry loading bay!

Just because you can't work out how something costs that much doesn't mean people are lying when they quote figures of £Xm.

 

[driverd]

Just because you can't work out how something costs that much doesn't mean people are lying when they quote figures of £Xm.

To clarify - I wasn't at any point suggesting anyone was lying. It was more intrigue as to how a seemingly small project can rack up such a (atleast to the layman) large bill.

The explanation is much appreciated - there's a lot to consider and I can see that it would take up some time and resource.

Just out of interest, is a position light sufficient for a signal that can be proved? If protected with TPWS rather than trap points, how is the distance from Signal to mainline junction arrived at (although with wagons in a yard which don't have TPWS fitted themselves, I presume that wouldn't be sufficient, depending on gradient etc)?

 

[Killingworth]

Now if there was a war on and we needed tons of baked beans...........

 

[zwk500]

To clarify - I wasn't at any point suggesting anyone was lying. It was more intrigue as to how a seemingly small project can rack up such a (atleast to the layman) large bill.

The explanation is much appreciated - there's a lot to consider and I can see that it would take up some time and resource.

No worries, there's lots more that could be included in that explanation but exactly what is needed varies from project.

Just out of interest, is a position light sufficient for a signal that can be proved? If protected with TPWS rather than trap points, how is the distance from Signal to mainline junction arrived at (although with wagons in a yard which don't have TPWS fitted themselves, I presume that wouldn't be sufficient, depending on gradient etc)?

Yes. A shunt/GPL or even a disc is fine, as long as it can be proved whether it is at 'danger' or 'proceed'. Any electric signal will be able to prove the aspect is being displayed correctly using relays in the circuit. A lever frame can prove the interlocking is set correctly either mechanically or again with relays. The distance between the TPWS train stop sensor and the obstruction are worked out from the attainable speed of the train and it's expected braking characteristics. The gradient and curvature are considered as part of this. If wagons are to be left unattended then they'll need a separate risk assessment and this may well decide that trap points or similar (sand drags) are needed. Trap points are permitted (I think), but they do need to carefully consider where the train is sent after being derailed - recent incidents at Toton and Bromsgrove show the potential danger here.

 

[Gloster]

Now if there was a war on and we needed tons of baked beans...........

What are we going to do? Turn our backs on the enemy and pull down our trouser? “Gad, this’ll make a hero of you, Bloodnok.”