Heinz Factory near Wigan to get its own siding?

[Meerkat]

RE how they are going to reverse the train but wasn't that explained in the media releases about the trial? I can't remember but think there were thanks for somebody keeping Parbold signal box open and doing a long run round via there and Wigan???

 

[furnessvale]

I did also think about this, but wouldn't top and tailing increase (double?) the carbon footprint of the service, which goes against the initial principle of the whole concept?

Even if both locos were powered (and using that power) there would still be less CO2 emitted than the road equivalent. However with many top and tail operations, only the lead loco is powered so the net result is a small increase in overall tare weight of the train.

 

[zwk500]

RE how they are going to reverse the train but wasn't that explained in the media releases about the trial? I can't remember but think there were thanks for somebody keeping Parbold signal box open and doing a long run round via there and Wigan???

There are some mentions of running round via Parbold in the press, although both references I found say signalling changes would likely be needed if that was to be a regular method of operation. What worked on the trial might not be cost-effective or considered safe long term, e.g. Leaving wagons unattached on the main line during the runround move. Also arranging for an extra member of staff for 1 night is fairly straightforward. Making sure the extra person is available week in week out is another matter - locos are somewhat easier to plan for in this regard.

 

[Gathursty]

People in Parbold may not be happy with the sound of idle freight train engines in the middle of the night.

 

[furnessvale]

People in Parbold may not be happy with the sound of idle freight train engines in the middle of the night.

People in villages the length and breadth of the country are not happy with convoys of HGVs in the middle of the night but they have to put up with it.

 

[zwk500]

People in Parbold may not be happy with the sound of idle freight train engines in the middle of the night.

They already complain about the lorries, what do they want to happen? A runround move would be stationary for about 3 minutes maximum, a top/tail reversal could do it in 5 if double-crewed but would need 10-15 minutes if single-crewed.

 

[Gloster]

But people have dual standards with road and rail. With lorries they put up with it, with possibly a touch of grumbling, even if it gets steadily worse. Try and introduce a freight train and they are up in arms. “They told us it was just a tiny branch line with a sweet little Thomas puffing up and down. This MUST be stopped.”

 

[507020]

RE how they are going to reverse the train but wasn't that explained in the media releases about the trial? I can't remember but think there were thanks for somebody keeping Parbold signal box open and doing a long run round via there and Wigan???

Now if they decide to build a siding to the factory rather than a pad on the main line, surely it would be worth doing a new crossover to go with it giving access to both lines and not having to run all the way to Parbold to reverse wouldn’t it?

 

[Gathursty]

They already complain about the lorries, what do they want to happen? A runround move would be stationary for about 3 minutes maximum, a top/tail reversal could do it in 5 if double-crewed but would need 10-15 minutes if single-crewed.

Being Devil's Advocate, is there any reason why it could take longer than your 15 minutes to complete that?

I ask because you do see freight trains parked up for a long time in places.

Has the Knowsley bin liner had issues where it had to stay on the branch for longer than normal?

 

[zwk500]

Now if they decide to build a siding to the factory rather than a pad on the main line, surely it would be worth doing a new crossover to go with it giving access to both lines and not having to run all the way to Parbold to reverse wouldn’t it?

The optimal layout is a crossover leading to a siding with release/runround line so that the freight is clear of the main line for the maximum possible time. However this will require substantial modification to the signalling as it's AB from Wigan Wallgate to Parbold and so would need a ground frame and facility to 'lock in' once the train is arrived. My bet is Heinz won't want to pay for all of that, so it'll be a pad on the lineside.

Being Devil's Advocate, is there any reason why it could take longer than your 15 minutes to complete that?

I ask because you do see freight trains parked up for a long time in places.

Has the Knowsley bin liner had issues where it had to stay on the branch for longer than normal?

Yes. It can take longer than 15 minutes for a variety of reasons. However the majority of times the reason you see freight parked up is because it's waiting for a path, which won't be the issue here as the freight will only run when nothing else is about. But even if it took 30 minutes (the longest it would stand unless something failed, which is always a risk) is that worse than an endless procession of HGVs?

 

[kermit]

And while we're at it...

Beenz Beenz the more you eat, the more you freight.

In order to make that scan better, could it be "Beenz Beenz they're good for the heart, the more you eat the more you become interested in the detailed logistics of their production and transport to market"?

Though I feel it could still do with some polishing.............

 

[CHAPS2034]

I believe the fact that Heinz have gone to the trouble of actually arranging a trial means that before going that far, they had at least got some ball-park figures for providing infrastructure options.

Will be interesting to see how the bean counters evaluate this.

Does anyone know when the trial was actually carried out?

 

[Gathursty]

The optimal layout is a crossover leading to a siding with release/runround line so that the freight is clear of the main line for the maximum possible time. However this will require substantial modification to the signalling as it's AB from Wigan Wallgate to Parbold and so would need a ground frame and facility to 'lock in' once the train is arrived. My bet is Heinz won't want to pay for all of that, so it'll be a pad on the lineside.

Yes. It can take longer than 15 minutes for a variety of reasons. However the majority of times the reason you see freight parked up is because it's waiting for a path, which won't be the issue here as the freight will only run when nothing else is about. But even if it took 30 minutes (the longest it would stand unless something failed, which is always a risk) is that worse than an endless procession of HGVs?

Thanks. I wanted someone to write a paragraph like that so if concerned Parboldians wish to complain to NR/their MP, they have the opportunity to have their worst nightmares dispelled by reading your post before hitting the send button.

 

[Gostav]

But people have dual standards with road and rail. With lorries they put up with it, with possibly a touch of grumbling, even if it gets steadily worse. Try and introduce a freight train and they are up in arms. “They told us it was just a tiny branch line with a sweet little Thomas puffing up and down. This MUST be stopped.”

But such NIMBYs will not be supported by the law, right? Just like HS2 Rebellion may cause some troubles to the project but they can’t stop the project at all.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Just look at what has happened at Scarborough, where residents objected to Class 68's being fired up during the night at a new passenger depot. That practice has been stopped as a result.

A top-and-tail operation with Class 68s at either end being reversed and one fired up at Parbold at 0400 or whenever is entirely within the bounds of plausibility on the basis of the current discussion.

But such NIMBYs will not be supported by the law, right? Just like HS2 Rebellion may cause some troubles to the project but they can’t stop the project at all.

Have all of the necessary planning consents, presumably including environmental impact statements, already been approved?

 

[zwk500]

Thanks. I wanted someone to write a paragraph like that so if concerned Parboldians wish to complain to NR/their MP, they have the opportunity to have their worst nightmares dispelled by reading your post before hitting the send button.

I'm sure my post will A. Not be read by anybody complaining directly and B. doesn't even answer half of their worst nightmares. There are many possible ways to operate this train and each will have a different level of impact on Parbold. It is impossible to answer concerns about noise at night until more details are known.

 

[randyrippley]

If it's going to be palletized rather than containers, seems a good use of redundant HSTs
Cut some holes in the mk3 coaches and fit roller doors. No need to worry about impact strength as nobody will be riding them

 

[zwk500]

If it's going to be palletized rather than containers, seems a good use of redundant HSTs
Cut some holes in the mk3 coaches and fit roller doors. No need to worry about impact strength as nobody will be riding them

Then you need somebody to get inside and shift the stuff around. A curtainsider swapbody is the obvious choice: pull up, curtain away then forklift can get straight at the goods, in whichever order it needs to.

 

[edwin_m]

If it's going to be palletized rather than containers, seems a good use of redundant HSTs
Cut some holes in the mk3 coaches and fit roller doors. No need to worry about impact strength as nobody will be riding them

Unfortunately the whole of the body of the Mk3 is structural, and even without considering crashworthiness it would need a lot of modification to accommodate this. Even cutting holes in the roof for the generator vans for the proposed European sleepers was very problematic.

If that's what's wanted, far better to start with an EMU that already has holes in approximately the right places, and maybe fit aircraft-type roller floors. It could be dragged or have a 769-type conversion to access the non-electrified section - in fact I suspect many on this forum would prefer the existing 769s were converted for this use...

 

[furnessvale]

Then you need somebody to get inside and shift the stuff around. A curtainsider swapbody is the obvious choice: pull up, curtain away then forklift can get straight at the goods, in whichever order it needs to.

IF this service comes to fruition I believe it will almost certainly be containers suitable for stacking on a standard short sea, cross North Sea container ship, for delivery to and from European factories and distribution depots of the parent company. I also believe the containers will include either bulk tanks or possibly bulk bags inside containers allowing backloading by dry product.

 

[WatcherZero]

They did the trial with cradles which suggests what they would be shipping would be bulk dry food stuffs, e.g. grain hoppers and using unloading conveyors or vacuum loading.

 

[ic31420]

They did the trial with cradles which suggests what they would be shipping would be bulk dry food stuffs, e.g. grain hoppers and using unloading conveyors or vacuum loading.

Aww that sucks.

What are these cradles?

Didn't the bottles water flow from a couple of decades ago used to be palletised and use some sort of wagons that allowed side loading?

Wider question. Does the UKs wagon fleet hold back freight like this?

Containers whilst easy ish to trans mode and ubiquitous arnt necessary the easiest things to load, opening as they do at the small end, being standard sizes etc.

 

[furnessvale]

Aww that sucks.

What are these cradles?

Didn't the bottles water flow from a couple of decades ago used to be palletised and use some sort of wagons that allowed side loading?

Wider question. Does the UKs wagon fleet hold back freight like this?

Containers whilst easy ish to trans mode and ubiquitous arnt necessary the easiest things to load, opening as they do at the small end, being standard sizes etc.

Swap bodies are normally curtain sided, matching a standard tautliner road trailer. Provided they match the standard bottom corner twistlock pockets, they can also come in any shape or size the user requests.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

But people have dual standards with road and rail. With lorries they put up with it, with possibly a touch of grumbling, even if it gets steadily worse. Try and introduce a freight train and they are up in arms. “They told us it was just a tiny branch line with a sweet little Thomas puffing up and down. This MUST be stopped.”

Far more people object to a succession of heavy lorries than to a few freight trains. Many, if not most, of the bypasses avoiding towns were constructed at least partly because of campaigning by local residents who were fed up with traffic going through their small town or village. Very few people complain about freight trains. I live in London where there are several lines busy with freight trains and no-one complains.

 

[zwk500]

Far more people object to a succession of heavy lorries than to a few freight trains. Many, if not most, of the bypasses avoiding towns were constructed at least partly because of campaigning by local residents who were fed up with traffic going through their small town or village. Very few people complain about freight trains. I live in London where there are several lines busy with freight trains and no-one complains.

Bit different in London where the noise of a freight train is hardly noticeable between all the other noise of living in one of the busiest cities in the world, and where the freight trains pass multiple times an hour. Parbold is hardly the world's most bustling metropolis so a freight train standing idle for up to 30 minutes at 3am would certainly be a noticeable change to the area. I do agree that people will object far more to many HGVs than 1 freight, but the noise of a reversal would be quite different to a train passing in cruise at 60mph.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Bit different in London where the noise of a freight train is hardly noticeable between all the other noise of living in one of the busiest cities in the world, and where the freight trains pass multiple times an hour. Parbold is hardly the world's most bustling metropolis so a freight train standing idle for up to 30 minutes at 3am would certainly be a noticeable change to the area. I do agree that people will object far more to many HGVs than 1 freight, but the noise of a reversal would be quite different to a train passing in cruise at 60mph.

Two points: some of the busiest freight routes in London run through some of the most select neighbourhoods which are not noisy, e.g. Canonbury, Kensington, Virginia Water. The freight trains also run at night when ambient noise is minimal.

Second, have there been any complaints about that bin liner train from Knowsley? It runs through Wigan. Is there a lobby group in Wigan campaigning against it?

 

[zwk500]

Two points: some of the busiest freight routes in London run through some of the most select neighbourhoods which are not noisy, e.g. Canonbury, Kensington, Virginia Water. The freight trains also run at night when ambient noise is minimal.

Second, have there been any complaints about that bin liner train from Knowsley? It runs through Wigan. Is there a lobby group in Wigan campaigning against it?

The specific concern was about freight standing for a specific length of time at Parbold, not freight passing through. I've got no idea about the binliner.

 

[Gathursty]

Two points: some of the busiest freight routes in London run through some of the most select neighbourhoods which are not noisy, e.g. Canonbury, Kensington, Virginia Water. The freight trains also run at night when ambient noise is minimal.

Second, have there been any complaints about that bin liner train from Knowsley? It runs through Wigan. Is there a lobby group in Wigan campaigning against it?

I'm under the impression that it doesn't stop in Wigan. It may pause at Rainford for a token but it must stop to reverse in a partially suburban part of Kirkby and the binliner terminal is within the industrial estate so not many people around to complain unlike Parbold where the line and station splits the village in two.

 

[507020]

I'm under the impression that it doesn't stop in Wigan. It may pause at Rainford for a token but it must stop to reverse in a partially suburban part of Kirkby and the binliner terminal is within the industrial estate so not many people around to complain unlike Parbold where the line and station splits the village in two.

And of course Rainford Junction is not actually in the village of Rainford itself.

 

[Brian1947]

I'm under the impression that it doesn't stop in Wigan. It may pause at Rainford for a token but it must stop to reverse in a partially suburban part of Kirkby and the binliner terminal is within the industrial estate so not many people around to complain unlike Parbold where the line and station splits the village in two.

When the binliner reverses out of the terminal it may have to wait a while for its booked path. The end of the train will be near to the new Headbolt Lane station and any easterly breeze may produce some unpleasant odours to any waiting passengers. Mask on, once again!