Help! Greater Anglia starting Prosecution investigation

[Inspogadget]

For the past 10 months or so I have been shorting tickets and using the incorrect rail card as I’m massively impacted financially with everything going on. I do have a 16-25 rail card but use others to increase the discount sometimes. Not exclusively but have admitted to have done this. I know it’s wrong so would really appreciate no snarky comments if possible.. I really want to resolve the situation out of court if I’m able to. I’m quite anxious about it. I was a little defensive to the agent taking details but was later honest about my situation and he took details.

Looking at the website it says if the person is of good character and can essentially provide context then maybe it can be settled out of court. I read in another thread that they don’t care about personal situations much but it has factored in to why I have done what I have. Life events, DV, facing redundancy etc. Not sure if I should include this in my response or what a better approach would be please.

I typically travel from Chelmsford to Stratford or Liverpool Street and tap out but was caught by a plain clothed person in LS when I tapped out using a Nominee pass. I’m not sure what to do or say when I get the letter. Any advice is welcome

 

[WesternLancer]

For the past 10 months or so I have been shorting tickets and using the incorrect rail card as I’m massively impacted financially with everything going on. I do have a 16-25 rail card but use others to increase the discount sometimes. Not exclusively but have admitted to have done this. I know it’s wrong so would really appreciate no snarky comments if possible.. I really want to resolve the situation out of court if I’m able to. I’m quite anxious about it. I was a little defensive to the agent taking details but was later honest about my situation and he took details.

Looking at the website it says if the person is of good character and can essentially provide context then maybe it can be settled out of court. I read in another thread that they don’t care about personal situations much but it has factored in to why I have done what I have. Life events, DV, facing redundancy etc. Not sure if I should include this in my response or what a better approach would be please.

I typically travel from Chelmsford to Stratford or Liverpool Street and tap out but was caught by a plain clothed person in LS when I tapped out using a Nominee pass. I’m not sure what to do or say when I get the letter. Any advice is welcome

Welcome - you need to wait for the letter but you are doing the rigth thing to prepare. They may consider an out of court settlement but it tends to depend on thre severity of your evading (rather than your character I would tend to say).

There are plenty of threads on here you can look for for advice on that and people will help you with what to say in your draft response. @Hadders posts a general guide to what to say often, so look that out and have a think about how you will follow that advice in what you write.

You need to be sure to get this letter which is almost always on paper and could take some weeks or more to arrive. You will then have a short period in which to reply. It is vital that you get the letter and reply or it will just escalate automatically to court and be much harder for you to sort out.

I assume you gave them your correct postal address, that you are not about to move address, and that they noted it down correctly as far as you know?

If you admitted to 10 months of evasion or have been buying tickets digitally (and thus leaving a big digital fingerprint for them to check which they will do as they have access ot all ticket retailers data) any settlement will not come cheap so you need to prepare for that. You can start to privately calculate that by looking at the Anytime Single fare for every journey and multiply that up. That is what they will expect you to pay - the sum for the short fares you have bought will not usually be set off against that I am afraid.

Did you tell them when you were caught that you have done it before / on multiple occasions?

Edit - I just noticed that:
Also you mention a Nominee pass. What is this - is this a pass issued to a member of your family who works on the railway? If so that is treated as a very serious abuse of the pass and I think runs the risk of them being discipled at work or sacked. If that is the case you need to tell them urgently and they need to urgently seek help eg from a union rep. Apols if that is not the sort of pass you mean however.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

@WesternLancer has given excellent advice above. I'm a little bit confused about exactly what you've been doing and I've got some further questions for you. This will help us to build a full picture of what has happened and offer you the best advice.

- You own a 16-25 Railcard but you've been buying tickets with a larger discount. What discount have you been using - 16-17 Railcard, Child tickets or something else?
- How have you purchased these tickets - online or through an app or from a ticket office or ticket machine?
- Your journey is from Chelmsford to Stratford or Liverpool Street. You wwere caught touching out with a Nominee Pass - why didn't you use the ticket you'd purchased to do this?
- Do the tickets you purchased cover the whole journey or are you buying a short distance ticket from Chelmsford to get through the barriers there and using the Nominee Pass to exit at Liverpool Street?
- Who is the Nominee Pass issued to? Are you entitled to use it?
- Have you told the railway employee responsible for the Nominee Pass? They will have some difficult questions to answer and could potentially lose their job
- Where were you stopped at Liverpool Street? The mainline platforms or exiting the Elizabeth Line or Underground?
- Which company does the inspector who stopped you represent - Greater Anglia or Transport for London?
- What exactly did you admit to the inspector about how often you've been doing this etc.

An out of court settlement can normally be obtained for many ticketing offences but you say this has been going on for 10 months and there seems to be misuse of a staff travel pass involved. I have to be honest and say that is going to make getting an out of court settlement extremely difficult.

You'll get sent a letter in a few weeks and I normally recommend mentioning the following in the reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

When the letter arrives post a copy of it in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Wolfie]

For the past 10 months or so I have been shorting tickets and using the incorrect rail card as I’m massively impacted financially with everything going on. I do have a 16-25 rail card but use others to increase the discount sometimes. Not exclusively but have admitted to have done this. I know it’s wrong so would really appreciate no snarky comments if possible.. I really want to resolve the situation out of court if I’m able to. I’m quite anxious about it. I was a little defensive to the agent taking details but was later honest about my situation and he took details.

Looking at the website it says if the person is of good character and can essentially provide context then maybe it can be settled out of court. I read in another thread that they don’t care about personal situations much but it has factored in to why I have done what I have. Life events, DV, facing redundancy etc. Not sure if I should include this in my response or what a better approach would be please.

I typically travel from Chelmsford to Stratford or Liverpool Street and tap out but was caught by a plain clothed person in LS when I tapped out using a Nominee pass. I’m not sure what to do or say when I get the letter. Any advice is welcome

I am unsure what you mean by DV but if it involves national security clearances you better tell the relevant people immediately. Failure to do so could have very unfortunate consequences.

 

[Inspogadget]

Welcome to the forum.

@WesternLancer has given excellent advice above. I'm a little bit confused about exactly what you've been doing and I've got some further questions for you. This will help us to build a full picture of what has happened and offer you the best advice.

- You own a 16-25 Railcard but you've been buying tickets with a larger discount. What discount have you been using - 16-17 Railcard, Child tickets or something else?
- How have you purchased these tickets - online or through an app or from a ticket office or ticket machine?
- Your journey is from Chelmsford to Stratford or Liverpool Street. You wwere caught touching out with a Nominee Pass - why didn't you use the ticket you'd purchased to do this?
- Do the tickets you purchased cover the whole journey or are you buying a short distance ticket from Chelmsford to get through the barriers there and using the Nominee Pass to exit at Liverpool Street?
- Who is the Nominee Pass issued to? Are you entitled to use it?
- Have you told the railway employee responsible for the Nominee Pass? They will have some difficult questions to answer and could potentially lose their job
- Where were you stopped at Liverpool Street? The mainline platforms or exiting the Elizabeth Line or Underground?
- Which company does the inspector who stopped you represent - Greater Anglia or Transport for London?
- What exactly did you admit to the inspector about how often you've been doing this etc.

An out of court settlement can normally be obtained for many ticketing offences but you say this has been going on for 10 months and there seems to be misuse of a staff travel pass involved. I have to be honest and say that is going to make getting an out of court settlement extremely difficult.

You'll get sent a letter in a few weeks and I normally recommend mentioning the following in the reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

When the letter arrives post a copy of it in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Welcome to the forum.

@WesternLancer has given excellent advice above. I'm a little bit confused about exactly what you've been doing and I've got some further questions for you. This will help us to build a full picture of what has happened and offer you the best advice.

- You own a 16-25 Railcard but you've been buying tickets with a larger discount. What discount have you been using - 16-17 Railcard, Child tickets or something else?
- How have you purchased these tickets - online or through an app or from a ticket office or ticket machine?
- Your journey is from Chelmsford to Stratford or Liverpool Street. You wwere caught touching out with a Nominee Pass - why didn't you use the ticket you'd purchased to do this?
- Do the tickets you purchased cover the whole journey or are you buying a short distance ticket from Chelmsford to get through the barriers there and using the Nominee Pass to exit at Liverpool Street?
- Who is the Nominee Pass issued to? Are you entitled to use it?
- Have you told the railway employee responsible for the Nominee Pass? They will have some difficult questions to answer and could potentially lose their job
- Where were you stopped at Liverpool Street? The mainline platforms or exiting the Elizabeth Line or Underground?
- Which company does the inspector who stopped you represent - Greater Anglia or Transport for London?
- What exactly did you admit to the inspector about how often you've been doing this etc.

An out of court settlement can normally be obtained for many ticketing offences but you say this has been going on for 10 months and there seems to be misuse of a staff travel pass involved. I have to be honest and say that is going to make getting an out of court settlement extremely difficult.

You'll get sent a letter in a few weeks and I normally recommend mentioning the following in the reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

When the letter arrives post a copy of it in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate it.

I do own a 16-25 railcard but I sometimes have used the Jobseeker one as it is 50% off and has made my financial situation easier. Not all tickets are invalid in this duration for sure.

I purchased them online so they will have a record.

My ticket didn’t cover the whole journey and I used the nominee pass to exit

I am the holder of the nominee pass but have informed the TFL worker of this

They were plained clothed but I believe revenue inspectors. They checked my pass and my ticket with their technology.

I was stopped on the main line platform but they had seen i have had other historical journeys.

Greater Anglia stopped me and had said the use of my pass isn’t within their area but they can use the data to see where my end destination should have been. My end destinations have not always been Liverpool Street. He gave me my pass back and reiterated it was separate but now I’m not sure..

I had said that it’s been expensive doing the commute before and I usually go to Shenfield and use The Elizabeth line but alluded to this not being my first time.

I did say I would be moving soon but the gentlemen said they have my email details and generally once the first letter comes in it’s usually dealt with digitally following that

Apologies if I’ve missed anything and thank you again for the time

I am unsure what you mean by DV but if it involves national security clearances you better tell the relevant people immediately. Failure to do so could have very unfortunate consequences.

I had shortened domestic violence to DV

 

[Hadders]

Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate it.

You're welcome!

I do own a 16-25 railcard but I sometimes have used the Jobseeker one as it is 50% off and has made my financial situation easier. Not all tickets are invalid in this duration for sure.

I purchased them online so they will have a record.

My ticket didn’t cover the whole journey and I used the nominee pass to exit

This doesn't put you in a strong position - basically you're done what is known as doughnutting, using short distance tickets at either end of your journey with a gaping gaop in the middle. To make matters worse the tickets you buy had an invalid railcard discount applied and you misused a Staff Nominee Pass.

I am the holder of the nominee pass but have informed the TFL worker of this

That's good. I suggest the TfL worker seeks advice from their Union rep about this at the earliest opportunity.

They were plained clothed but I believe revenue inspectors. They checked my pass and my ticket with their technology.

I was stopped on the main line platform but they had seen i have had other historical journeys.

Greater Anglia stopped me and had said the use of my pass isn’t within their area but they can use the data to see where my end destination should have been. My end destinations have not always been Liverpool Street. He gave me my pass back and reiterated it was separate but now I’m not sure..

I'm surprised they let you have the pass back. I would have expected them to sieze it as part of their investigation. Did they write down any of the pass details (although their device might have done this)

I had said that it’s been expensive doing the commute before and I usually go to Shenfield and use The Elizabeth line but alluded to this not being my first time.

Lots of people are struggling financially at the moment and I really do feel for people in this situation. Staff Travel is not my area of expertise but I assume the Nominee Pass is valid on the Elizabeth Line but not Greater Anglia.

I did say I would be moving soon but the gentlemen said they have my email details and generally once the first letter comes in it’s usually dealt with digitally following that

I recommend you arrange for your post to be re-directed by Royal Mail when you move.

I think you'll need to prepare for the worst on this. I'm not saying they will prosecute you, there have been some high profile cases where out of court settlements have been agreed, but if you do manage to keep this out of court you would have to wonder how serious a case would need to be to end up in court. Whatever happens it isn't going to be cheap - if you are offered an out of court settlement it will need to be paid immediately, paying in installments isn't normally an option.

 

[Wolfie]

I had shortened domestic violence to DV

Ah, that acronym has a very different meaning in the national security space which some people seeking advice on here say that they are linked to.

How to get Security Cleared | Security Cleared Jobs

Find out more on UK security clearance and the procedure of getting security vetted for DV, SC, CTC and NATO levels.

www.securityclearedjobs.com

 

[BJames]

I'm surprised they let you have the pass back. I would have expected them to sieze it as part of their investigation. Did they write down any of the pass details (although their device might have done this)


Lots of people are struggling financially at the moment and I really do feel for people in this situation. Staff Travel is not my area of expertise but I assume the Nominee Pass is valid on the Elizabeth Line but not Greater Anglia.

Just on this one - depends exactly which nominee pass it is, a Bus Operator Nominee pass is not valid on Greater Anglia at all but a Staff Nominee pass is valid between Stratford and Liverpool Street only (I'm presuming the Conditions of Travel haven't changed).

 

[Inspogadget]

You're welcome!




This doesn't put you in a strong position - basically you're done what is known as doughnutting, using short distance tickets at either end of your journey with a gaping gaop in the middle. To make matters worse the tickets you buy had an invalid railcard discount applied and you misused a Staff Nominee Pass.


That's good. I suggest the TfL worker seeks advice from their Union rep about this at the earliest opportunity.




I'm surprised they let you have the pass back. I would have expected them to sieze it as part of their investigation. Did they write down any of the pass details (although their device might have done this)


Lots of people are struggling financially at the moment and I really do feel for people in this situation. Staff Travel is not my area of expertise but I assume the Nominee Pass is valid on the Elizabeth Line but not Greater Anglia.


I recommend you arrange for your post to be re-directed by Royal Mail when you move.

I think you'll need to prepare for the worst on this. I'm not saying they will prosecute you, there have been some high profile cases where out of court settlements have been agreed, but if you do manage to keep this out of court you would have to wonder how serious a case would need to be to end up in court. Whatever happens it isn't going to be cheap - if you are offered an out of court settlement it will need to be paid immediately, paying in installments isn't normally an option.

He did say that they would do their own investigation following the identification check/post. But yeah he did tap my pass and had it for a while whilst chatting so I assume he has the details. So I suppose that will also aid in the investigation but I guess they could assume for all ‘bad’ journeys are Liverpool Street for speed.. can only hope but yes I will prepare for the worst situation

That’s right I can use Elizabeth line but not on GA trains. I own the mistake for sure.

Thanks again for the advice. When the letter comes I would kindly ask for further advice from this supportive community!

Just on this one - depends exactly which nominee pass it is, a Bus Operator Nominee pass is not valid on Greater Anglia at all but a Staff Nominee pass is valid between Stratford and Liverpool Street only (I'm presuming the Conditions of Travel haven't changed).

It was the bus nominee pass unfortunately. I had used on other London transport which is fine but not supposed to be used in this way with incomplete journeys

 

[furlong]

You'll just need to wait for letter(s). If you're "lucky", they'll focus only on the GA aspect of this and disregard the misuse of the Nominee Pass (as that's extra work for them that adds nothing to their case against you). But if they do notify TfL, don't be surprised if you get a separate letter leading to its withdrawal.

 

[Inspogadget]

You'll just need to wait for letter(s). If you're "lucky", they'll focus only on the GA aspect of this and disregard the misuse of the Nominee Pass (as that's extra work for them that adds nothing to their case against you). But if they do notify TfL, don't be surprised if you get a separate letter leading to its withdrawal.

Yeah good shout. Will keep my fingers crossed

 

[AlterEgo]

If you have been systematically evading fares for 10 months they will likely work out from your purchase and nominee pass tap history what has been going on. Train companies may well settle even in extreme cases like this where the abuse has been sustained, deliberate and over long distances, but they often ask for the Anytime Fare to be paid for every occasion.

A Chelmsford to London Anytime Day Return is £34.50, and if you’ve done it over 10 months (has it been every day?) then it’s going to add up. A settlement figure will normally need to be paid immediately, so you will need to have this figure on hand.

However you should be prepared also to be prosecuted. You are fortunate in one respect that it is the train company dealing with this and not the police, because you can’t dispose of a police matter by just paying the victim their money back. However, this is as serious as railway fraud gets and I would not rule out the company prosecuting you and using the case as an example for their press releases.

Do let us know how things progress.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If you admitted to 10 months of evasion or have been buying tickets digitally (and thus leaving a big digital fingerprint for them to check which they will do as they have access ot all ticket retailers data) any settlement will not come cheap so you need to prepare for that. You can start to privately calculate that by looking at the Anytime Single fare for every journey and multiply that up.

I guess they could assume for all ‘bad’ journeys are Liverpool Street for speed..

Something you can be doing is working out precisely what journeys you did make. If you bought the tickets online I expect that there’s a way you can look at your history: if you bought them at a ticket office or a machine then if you paid by card look at your bank/credit card statements. Do this, and you can work out quite how much the railway will be asking for to cover their fares - although if they agree to settle out of court there will be the cost of their investigation on top, while if it goes to court there will be the fine and court costs as well.

 

[Inspogadget]

If you have been systematically evading fares for 10 months they will likely work out from your purchase and nominee pass tap history what has been going on. Train companies may well settle even in extreme cases like this where the abuse has been sustained, deliberate and over long distances, but they often ask for the Anytime Fare to be paid for every occasion.

A Chelmsford to London Anytime Day Return is £34.50, and if you’ve done it over 10 months (has it been every day?) then it’s going to add up. A settlement figure will normally need to be paid immediately, so you will need to have this figure on hand.

However you should be prepared also to be prosecuted. You are fortunate in one respect that it is the train company dealing with this and not the police, because you can’t dispose of a police matter by just paying the victim their money back. However, this is as serious as railway fraud gets and I would not rule out the company prosecuting you and using the case as an example for their press releases.

Do let us know how things progress.

It hasn’t been everyday and I have had correct journeys in between but over that period yes I have made that mistake.

Will update in the the thread

Something you can be doing is working out precisely what journeys you did make. If you bought the tickets online I expect that there’s a way you can look at your history: if you bought them at a ticket office or a machine then if you paid by card look at your bank/credit card statements. Do this, and you can work out quite how much the railway will be asking for to cover their fares - although if they agree to settle out of court there will be the cost of their investigation on top, while if it goes to court there will be the fine and court costs as well.

Thank you. I have managed to look at the journeys and calculate a ball park figure based on a Single Anytime that was mentioned above

 

[WesternLancer]

I did say I would be moving soon but the gentlemen said they have my email details and generally once the first letter comes in it’s usually dealt with digitally following that

don't rely on that - you will need to set up a Royal Mail redirect (see their website) it is vital you get any and all correspondence. The person you spoke to is not back office so can't gaurantee what they told you in my view.
sorry to hear of the DV situation.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I think you'll need to prepare for the worst on this. I'm not saying they will prosecute you, there have been some high profile cases where out of court settlements have been agreed, but if you do manage to keep this out of court you would have to wonder how serious a case would need to be to end up in court. Whatever happens it isn't going to be cheap...

Inclined to agree. At what stage might the OP be advised to consider seeking out specialist legal representation?

 

[Inspogadget]

don't rely on that - you will need to set up a Royal Mail redirect (see their website) it is vital you get any and all correspondence. The person you spoke to is not back office so can't gaurantee what they told you in my view.
sorry to hear of the DV situation.

Thank you I definitely will. Don’t want to make things worst for myself & appreciate your kindness.

Inclined to agree. At what stage might the OP be advised to consider seeking out specialist legal representation?

I have reached out for legal advice and have been given quotes but waiting for the letter before I decide on next steps to be honest

Inclined to agree. At what stage might the OP be advised to consider seeking out specialist legal representation?

I have reached out for legal advice and have been given quotes but waiting for the letter before I decide on next steps to be honest

Inclined to agree. At what stage might the OP be advised to consider seeking out specialist legal representation?

I have reached out for legal advice and have been given quotes but waiting for the letter before I decide on next steps to be honest

 

[Haywain]

At what stage might the OP be advised to consider seeking out specialist legal representation?

I think the cases we see on the forum that actually need specialist legal advice, if any legal advice at all, to resolve are in tiny numbers. Most can be resolved simply by using the right form of words in a letter, and where legal advice is taken it usually comes at a high cost. The key factor in this case is likely to be whether TfL have any involvement.

 

[Hadders]

At what stage might the OP be advised to consider seeking out specialist legal representation?

It's best to wait for the letter to see what GA ask and if they give any clues to how they might proceed.

 

[Inspogadget]

For the past 10 months or so I have been shorting tickets and using the incorrect rail card as I’m massively impacted financially with everything going on. I do have a 16-25 rail card but use others to increase the discount sometimes. Not exclusively but have admitted to have done this. I know it’s wrong so would really appreciate no snarky comments if possible.. I really want to resolve the situation out of court if I’m able to. I’m quite anxious about it. I was a little defensive to the agent taking details but was later honest about my situation and he took details.

Looking at the website it says if the person is of good character and can essentially provide context then maybe it can be settled out of court. I read in another thread that they don’t care about personal situations much but it has factored in to why I have done what I have. Life events, DV, facing redundancy etc. Not sure if I should include this in my response or what a better approach would be please.

I typically travel from Chelmsford to Stratford or Liverpool Street and tap out but was caught by a plain clothed person in LS when I tapped out using a Nominee pass. I’m not sure what to do or say when I get the letter. Any advice is welcome

Update -

I got the letter that everyone seems to get and had responded with the guidance that had been shared on here. I did add my own spin to make this more personal and I got back a response that they are waiting on my journey reports to organise an out of court settlement as a result. Thank you all for your support.

 

[30907]

Update -

I got the letter that everyone seems to get and had responded with the guidance that had been shared on here. I did add my own spin to make this more personal and I got back a response that they are waiting on my journey reports to organise an out of court settlement as a result. Thank you all for your support.

Thanks for the update, sounds like potentially a good outcome except for your bank balance. Let us know what transpires.

 

[Hadders]

This sounds like a positive result, thanks for letting us know.

 

[Hello123]

Update -

I got the letter that everyone seems to get and had responded with the guidance that had been shared on here. I did add my own spin to make this more personal and I got back a response that they are waiting on my journey reports to organise an out of court settlement as a result. Thank you all for your support.

Hey! I have been reading about what happened and a similar situation has just happened to me, can you tell me how long it took to get the letter and more details about how you responded to this ? Do they take a while to reply once you have sent your response to the original letter ?

 

[Gloster]

Hey! I have been reading about what happened and a similar situation has just happened to me, can you tell me how long it took to get the letter and more details about how you responded to this ? Do they take a while to reply once you have sent your response to the original letter ?

If you have a problem please start your own thread. No two problems are exactly the same and good advice for one can be bad advice for another.