Help - why shouldn't you use the Gatwick Express?

[AlterEgo]

Hello forum members,

As some of you know, I run a YouTube channel which documents my travel experiences.

I'm going to make some videos this year about travel in London and options for connecting to airports and other transport. The audience is going to be tourists.

One of these videos is going to be about getting to Gatwick from London. Obviously the advice is going to be around NOT using Gatwick Express!

So, can you tell me all the reasons why a tourist shouldn't use GX? Can you give me the fares on Oyster, GX, TL, etc from central London?

If you help, you will be credited in the video and I'll link to this thread. I'll also give a little plug to TrainSplit.

 

[cuccir]

1. An Anytime Return ticket from Gatwick to London (with no further tube travel!) is £35.50, whereas an Anytime Return NOT Gatwick Express is £25.30. However, the Gatwick Express is typically only 1-3 minutes faster than many of the other services

2. Gatwick Express only stops at Victoria whereas other services also call at Clapham Junction. As the Tube and Rail Map shows, that can be a much better station for accessing much of West and South London

 

[gordonthemoron]

does GatEx have better luggage carrying provision?

 

[swt class 450]

Hello forum members,

As some of you know, I run a YouTube channel which documents my travel experiences.

I'm going to make some videos this year about travel in London and options for connecting to airports and other transport. The audience is going to be tourists.

One of these videos is going to be about getting to Gatwick from London. Obviously the advice is going to be around NOT using Gatwick Express!

So, can you tell me all the reasons why a tourist shouldn't use GX? Can you give me the fares on Oyster, GX, TL, etc from central London?

If you help, you will be credited in the video and I'll link to this thread. I'll also give a little plug to TrainSplit.

Here is a list of the many reasons why you should not use the Gatwick Express:

• Very poorly designed class 387/2 trains.
• The trains are 100% identical to the other 377 and 387 trains operated on their other brands.
• Hard uncomfortable ironing board seats in both Standard Class and First Class.
• First Class is 100% identical to Standard Class.
• It is very easy to sit in First Class with a Standard Class ticket without realising it.
• First Class offers no advantages over standard class.
• The trains are not designed for Airport services.
• Hardly any luggage room.
• Not as much leg room as before.
• No trolley service onboard.
• They pretend that GTR doesn't exist and that Gatwick Express / Great Northern / Southern / Thameslink are four separate companies.
• They wrongly sell separate Any Permitted / Not Gatwick Express / Southern Only / Thameslink Only tickets.
• They confuse tourists by selling separate Any Permitted / Not Gatwick Express / Southern Only / Thameslink Only tickets.
• They wrongly refuse to accept Not Gatwick Express / Southern Only / Thameslink Only tickets (all four types of tickets are valid on their Gatwick Express trains).
• They wrongly make people on board buy brand new Any Permitted tickets when they already have valid tickets.
• Very rude and threatening Red Gestapo staff on P13 and P14 at London Victoria.
• Staff refuse to accept valid tickets.
• Staff rip up perfectly valid tickets.
• The Red Gestapo staff wrongly make passengers buy extra tickets when they already have perfectly valid tickets.
• Unstaffed trains (except for the driver).
• Very recently introduced OBS Red Gestapo staff onboard trains (which will probably get removed within a few years)
• The OBS normally hide away in the rear cab.
• On the rare occasions that they do check tickets the OBS are very rude and threatening and wrongly make passengers buy extra tickets.
• The prices are extortionately expensive.
• You can buy cheaper tickets to London from stations South of Gatwick Airport but they hide this from passengers.
• You can no longer buy tickets onboard.
• The trains are Penalty Fare trains.
• The stopping Southern branded and Thameslink branded services are normally quicker.
• The services are advertised as taking 30 minutes but in reality take longer.
• The services are advertised as running every 15 minutes but in reality are much less frequent.
• Services are very often delayed.
• Services are very often cancelled.
• It is one of the most unreliable services in the UK.
• The whole Gatwick Express operation is used as a dishonest method to rip off tourists.

The list could probably go on and on. It is really an awful service. There are a huge amount of complicating and confusing tickets available between Gatwick Airport and London with Separte Any Permitted / Not Gatwick Express / Southern Only / Thameslink Onky tickets (with single tickets / return tickets / travelcards / day tickets / open tickets / super off peak tickets / off peak tickets / anytime tickets / standard class tickets / first class tickets etc) you can find all the fares on - www.brfares.com - between Gatwick Airport and London.

For an example these are the prices of Off Peak and Anytime (Standard Class) Day Travelcard tickets:

ANY PERMITTED:
Off Peak Travelcard - £32.90
Anytime Travelcard - £44.20

NOT GATWICK EXPRESS:
Off Peak Travelcard - £17.30
Anytime Travelcard - £31.00

SOUTHERN ONLY:
Off Peak Travelcard - £16.60
Anytime Travelcard - £30.10

THAMESLINK ONLY:
Off Peak Travelcard - £14.50
Anytime Travelcard - £26.60

There is also a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard on THAMESLINK ONLY for £12.30 which is only available on weekends (saturdays and sundays).

Of course all Any Permitted / Not Gatwick Express / Southern Only / Thameslink Only tickets are all valid on all brands (Gatwick Express / Southern / Thameslink) between Gatwick Airport and London but most staff refuse to admit and accept this.

And then there are million types of Single and Return fares. So i imagine that tourists must get very confused.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is all very helpful - thank you for those who have contributed!

 

[Joe Paxton]

In this post on a very recent thread I give a reason for buying and using conventional paper tickets to get from Gatwick to London and back - doing this is more expensive than using contactless or Oyster, but it gives access to the "2FOR1" discounts on London attractions which can offer some considerable savings if doing touristy type things.

If going down this route, then the 'Not Gatwick Express' Anytime Return fare to London is £31.40 (there's no Off-Peak period Return fare for this flow).

The Gatwick Express Anytime Return fare meanwhile is £35.50, however if you buy the tickets online from the GatEx website then there's a 10% discount which brings the fare down to £31.60 - just twenty pence more than the 'Not GatEx' fare.

So that's actually a rare argument for using the Gatwick Express!

Another paper ticket option (also eligible for the 2FOR1 offers) is a Thameslink-only Anytime Return at £19.80. Only any good if travelling to a central London destination on the Thameslink route. (Unless they want to try their hand at arguing that a GTR ticket is inherently valid on all GTR services, but I'd suggest that's really not something most people would be up for doing.)

If the 2FOR1 discounts aren't important, I'd recommend using contactless or Oyster (and not travelling on Gatwick Express) - it's simple and hassle free.

(One of the old and now defunct arguments for using GatEx was that you used to be able to just jump on the train and buy a ticket on board - useful if in a bit of a mad rush - but that stopped years ago when Gatwick station and the GatEx platforms at Victoria were gated. But having a contactless or Oyster card in your pocket negates that as advantage nowadays anyway.)

 

[Joe Paxton]

1. An Anytime Return ticket from Gatwick to London (with no further tube travel!) is £35.50, whereas an Anytime Return NOT Gatwick Express is £25.30. However, the Gatwick Express is typically only 1-3 minutes faster than many of the other services

That's incorrect - £25.30 is the cost of a 'NOT GatEx' Anytime Day Return.

A 'NOT GatEx' Anytime (period) Return is £31.40.

 

[Ianno87]

On, the other hand, if you're travelling from Gatwick to somewhere beyond London on an 'Any Permitted' fare (so not paying a premium fare as such), then you at least have the advantage of being able to board two trains per hour that are starting empty.

If you want to be taken seriously, try and give it *some* balance, and not just be focused on being anti-Gatwick Express. State what the service offers - a seat on an empty train - (or doesn't offer) in a 'transparent' way compared to the alternatives. Believe it or not, some people will be happy enough with this to justify the extra outlay

 

[plymothian]

The Southern/Thameslink/GatEx all being GTR and the ticket inter-availability might be a little difficult for unfamiliar people (ie international tourists) to grasp, or argue the case over for anyone with English as a second language.

 

[AlterEgo]

On, the other hand, if you're travelling from Gatwick to somewhere beyond London on an 'Any Permitted' fare (so not paying a premium fare as such), then you at least have the advantage of being able to board two trains per hour that are starting empty.

If you want to be taken seriously, try and give it *some* balance, and not just be focused on being anti-Gatwick Express. State what the service offers - a seat on an empty train - (or doesn't offer) in a 'transparent' way compared to the alternatives. Believe it or not, some people will be happy enough with this to justify the extra outlay

Thanks, that is a useful counterpoint.

 

[Joe Paxton]

On, the other hand, if you're travelling from Gatwick to somewhere beyond London on an 'Any Permitted' fare (so not paying a premium fare as such), then you at least have the advantage of being able to board two trains per hour that are starting empty.

And if there are two of you travelling from (and returning to) Victoria then Gatwick Express offers something they call a "Web Duo" ticket, which gives 35% off so costs £45.50 for two people. This is actually cheaper than 4x the peak 'Not GatEx' contactless or Oyster fare.

If you want to be taken seriously, try and give it *some* balance, and not just be focused on being anti-Gatwick Express. State what the service offers - a seat on an empty train - (or doesn't offer) in a 'transparent' way compared to the alternatives. Believe it or not, some people will be happy enough with this to justify the extra outlay

Agreed.

 

[Clip]

Whilst I agree with this ( though the bit about ripping up tickets I cant quite remember again)

• Staff refuse to accept valid tickets.
• Staff rip up perfectly valid tickets.
.

You are simply wrong with this

• You can buy cheaper tickets to London from stations South of Gatwick Airport but they hide this from passengers.

As has been pointed out to you many times they are simply under no obligation to point this out to anyone.

How is this a valid point

• Unstaffed trains (except for the driver).

When you go on to say this

• Very recently introduced OBS Red Gestapo staff onboard trains (which will probably get removed within a few years)
• The OBS normally hide away in the rear cab.

This seems perfectly valid and sound reasoning to me and fits in with the rest of the areas

• You can no longer buy tickets onboard.
• The trains are Penalty Fare trains.

This is not a valid reason as expensive is relative to income

• The prices are extortionately expensive.

This doesn't seem accurate but then again you havent said how you are measuring this so I think we can dismiss your claim.

• It is one of the most unreliable services in the UK.

Whilst it seems harmony between fares hasnt come about like it should of done I think we all know its a minefield for the whole GTR group who use the same set of rails. And really you need to stop referring to old railway colleagues as the 'Red Gestapo' it seems quite childish for someone in their 40s to do and they are very far away from those who captured and killed a rather lot of people dont you.


You lose all credibility when you contradict yourself so many time too.

 

[talldave]

If you need to travel around London on the day you arrive, a "normal" zones 1-6 Travelcard combined with a Gatwick to Boundary Zone 6 ticket can offer good value for money and is valid on Gatwick Express and all other services too. The problem is getting the ticket office to sell you this combination. The Travelcard can be purchased online in advance and collected from a ticket machine at Gatwick, the Gatwick to Boundary Zone 6 ticket can be bought at the ticket office, but do not accept any argument that a ticket to East Croydon is the same price, as it's not valid on the Gatwick Express in combination with the Travelcard.

 

[swt class 450]

If you need to travel around London on the day you arrive, a "normal" zones 1-6 Travelcard combined with a Gatwick to Boundary Zone 6 ticket can offer good value for money and is valid on Gatwick Express and all other services too. The problem is getting the ticket office to sell you this combination. The Travelcard can be purchased online in advance and collected from a ticket machine at Gatwick, the Gatwick to Boundary Zone 6 ticket can be bought at the ticket office, but do not accept any argument that a ticket to East Croydon is the same price, as it's not valid on the Gatwick Express in combination with the Travelcard.

Before GTR very recently started getting rid of their Shere TVMs and replacing them with Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs you could also buy this ticket from all of their TVMs at almost all of their stations by using the "tickets from another station" button. This avoided having to deal with incompetent ticket office staff.

 

[yorkie]

Off peak the Oyster fare is £8.10 from any London Terminal to Gatwick, and vice-versa (bear in mind there is no evening peak from Gatwick to London) with the exception that if you tap in or out at the Platform 13/14 gateline (used by most, but not all GTR services branded "Gatwick Express) the fare is a whopping £19.80.

does GatEx have better luggage carrying provision?

No. The company's best luggage provision is on its "700" series units on their Thameslink route.

The Southern/Thameslink/GatEx all being GTR and the ticket inter-availability might be a little difficult for unfamiliar people (ie international tourists) to grasp, or argue the case over for anyone with English as a second language.

True; they prey on tourists.

Tip for AlterEgo: turn up at a time when the company's "Express" branded trains are slower, and see what you are advised to do. For example, just after 11am this Sunday:

http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=VIC&dest=GTW&odate=20170409&otime=1115&maxres=3&maxch=0

1106 Victoria - Gatwick 1144 (38min) £8.10
1117 Victoria - Gatwick 1153 (36min) £8.10
1130 Victoria - Gatwick 1209 (39min) £19.80

It is not unknown to ask for the next Gatwick train and be advised to get the 1130.

Asking for a ticket to Gatwick will often see you sold the more expensive fare, even when there is a 29 minute wait for a slower train taking 39minutes, and you end up in Gatwick 25 minutes later than you could have got there.

Not all staff mislead, so you may find that they give correct info.

However anyone caught advising passengers for Gatwick of the existence of the company's faster 1106 or 1117 trains may be told they must leave the station. Some of the company's staff get very angry if you recommend their faster services. I've never known any other company's staff act in a comparable way.

If you turn up as the 1742 is pulling out on any weekday, the company may also mislead you about their faster 1746 and 1757 departures (by either acting as if they do not exist, or by falsely claiming that they are slower) and try to make you wait for their notoriously slow 1800 service, which is scheduled for 36 minutes and yet is often delayed. The 1800 is often short-formed too!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-cancellations-govia-thameslink-a7141166.html

The direct rail link between London Victoria and Gatwick airport has been revealed as the UK’s most delayed train service, notching up more than 8,100 late services in just the last six months.
The premium-priced service is operated by the embattled Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), which is also under fire after it announced last week it was axing 341 Southern trains a day as part of an emergency timetable introduced in an attempt to improve poor punctuality.
The UK’s five worst routes are run by GTR...

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/about-us/how-were-performing/daily-performance-report

(image shows PPM often worse on GTR's Gatwick "Express" branded route compared to its Southern branded routes)

 

[maniacmartin]

There's too much information here. It makes sense to us because we are familiar with the system, but based on my experience travelling by rail abroad you risk overloading your target audience with so many details that they will just become confused. Try to keep it simple, don't include anything about supposed ticket inter-availability, "Red Gestapo", Penalty Fares etc as it will not be helpful.

The main thing people need to know is which London Terminal to go to, as it's easy to just get on a train to Victoria without knowing there other options. Something like to go to Victoria for West London, take Thameslink if they have onward travel from St Pancras or Kings Cross, change at East Croydon or Clapham Junction for various south London destinations or go to London Bridge for East London and the City.

 

[bb21]

I fully concur with the above. Keep it relevant to the audience.

 

[zoneking]

Here is a list of the many reasons why you should not use the Gatwick Express:

• The stopping Southern branded and Thameslink branded services are normally quicker.

I agree with all except the above, which does not apply to Horsham trains, which do stop at every station between Gatwick and Purley. There is never really any reason for Gatwick passengers to use these trains, unless they want to go to intermediate stations such as Earlswood, Merstham, Coulsdon South or Purley. They are often only 4 cars long and get very crowded.

 

[Greenback]

I fully concur with the above. Keep it relevant to the audience.

I agree as well. There's no point in overloading and confusing an audience if you have a message to get across.

The Gatwiok Express can be useful for people like myself who can sometimes find it's both cheaper and a little bit quicker to get to Gatwick via London instead of changing at Reading.

When it comes to those going to and from Central London, I see the main need as showing that there are alternatives to the Gatwick Express that are cheaper, only slightly slower overall, and which serve different stations to Victoria that might be more convenient for the final destination.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for all the contributions so far. It's not going to be a "GX are evil" video, but it's helpful to collate the reasons why they fall short in one place, so I can pick the salient points and mention them.

 

[matt_world2004]

This is not a valid reason as expensive is relative to income.

Expensive can also refer to the services relative price compared to other services with a similar offer,

 

[Clip]

Expensive can also refer to the services relative price compared to other services with a similar offer,

Quite but a stopping service isnt for everyone as even on a relatively short journey such as that from Vic to Gatwick some people believe it or not prefer not to be disturbed by others getting on and off and this shows all across the network with stopping services generally being cheaper than those that dont stop so often.

But the main point is what I wrote originally and still stands.

 

[Clip]

Why does anybody use Gatwick anything, full-stop?

Because its closer to most of the population of the South East of England maybe?

It costs a fortune to get there, takes ages, and is always packed. I'm 11 minutes away from BHX and have only ever flown out of Brum from the UK. It's a tad over an hour from Euston and fares are nothing like this Gatwick Ex-crap thingy.

The same is true for Heathrow - I would rather, and have several times, flown from Brum via Amsterdam or Brussels to the US in preference to going to that hell-hole.

Well bully for you. However thats simply not an option for many people and many many people people prefer to go direct to their destination and not spend time arsing about changing airports.

 

[yorkie]

...When it comes to those going to and from Central London, I see the main need as showing that there are alternatives to the Gatwick Express that are cheaper, only slightly slower overall....

The alternatives are often faster, especially at the times most people travel!

 

[tbtc]

I'm going to make some videos this year about travel in London and options for connecting to airports and other transport. The audience is going to be tourists.

One of these videos is going to be about getting to Gatwick from London. Obviously the advice is going to be around NOT using Gatwick Express!

So, can you tell me all the reasons why a tourist shouldn't use GX?

Best of luck with your venture.

However, your OP could comes across as "I am going to make a video about the fact that Gatwick Express are bad, but I don't know why they are bad, so can someone give me some reasons to justify the opinion that I already hold".

I'm sure it wasn't meant like that, of course, and I don't mean to necessarily defend Gatwick Express (they provide a service that I'm not interested in using, but at least I recognise that they fill some niche, though I'd prefer the scarce paths through East Croydon to be better used with services that benefit everyone rather than just airport passengers).

Hopefully the video will be more balanced than some of the comments on this thread - I think I'd be careful of the "faster"/ "slower" issue though as it really depends on the time that you travel. The fact that there's a Southern service that gets from Victoria to Gatwick two minutes faster than the next GatEx service is interesting to me, but if neither service overtakes the other then it may not be relevant to a member of the public who is just interested in taking the next "fast" service (i.e. one that won't get overtaken).

By all means highlight the "fast" Victoria - Gatwick "Southern" services, and the benefits of taking Thameslink (especially once Crossrail comes to Farringdon).

 

[AlterEgo]

Best of luck with your venture.

However, your OP could comes across as "I am going to make a video about the fact that Gatwick Express are bad, but I don't know why they are bad, so can someone give me some reasons to justify the opinion that I already hold".

I'm sure it wasn't meant like that, of course, and I don't mean to necessarily defend Gatwick Express (they provide a service that I'm not interested in using, but at least I recognise that they fill some niche, though I'd prefer the scarce paths through East Croydon to be better used with services that benefit everyone rather than just airport passengers).

Hopefully the video will be more balanced than some of the comments on this thread - I think I'd be careful of the "faster"/ "slower" issue though as it really depends on the time that you travel. The fact that there's a Southern service that gets from Victoria to Gatwick two minutes faster than the next GatEx service is interesting to me, but if neither service overtakes the other then it may not be relevant to a member of the public who is just interested in taking the next "fast" service (i.e. one that won't get overtaken).

By all means highlight the "fast" Victoria - Gatwick "Southern" services, and the benefits of taking Thameslink (especially once Crossrail comes to Farringdon).

Thanks,

To be honest I don't often use GX and I zone out of the discussions about them on here. But I am vaguely aware that they aren't always the cheapest, most convenient option.

Reasons to use GX are obvious, but just wanted a quick dump in one place of all the reasons why you might not want to use them - I'll obviously cherrypick those.

 

[yorkie]

... I don't mean to necessarily defend Gatwick Express (they provide a service that I'm not interested in using, ....

Gatwick Express is not an entity; it's nothing more than a brand name. The service is provided by the train company called GTR (Govia Thameslink Railway).

Apologies if you already know this but I feel it is important that anyone reading this is left in absolutely no doubt, as I am keen for people to know the true situation, as the company often uses language that is designed to mislead people.

...a member of the public who is just interested in taking the next "fast" service (i.e. one that won't get overtaken)....

People who want to get to Gatwick quickly are often lied to, and that is one of the biggest issues.

People should be given accurate information and accurate prices.

So, just after 11am on Sunday (to use my example) people should be informed of the next available trains (not just the one half an hour later) and told that the journey can be done for £8.10 on the fastest trains. In practice, only a few of the company's staff who work on the Platform 13/14 ticket office and gateline will actually inform customers of the truth, in my experience.