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Help With FPN?

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ModernRailways

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I think I might try this, I spoke to Northern Rail, right at the start and they refused to deal with me and told me everything must go through TPS, I have a feeling as TPS have rejected my appeals, they'll tell me theres nothing they can do, but it might be worth a try.

I'm not holding out much hope, I think a complaint won't do much good either as they are all seem to be agreeing with each other that they have commmited no fault. It has been well over 28 days since I have recieved the penalty notice, but I have had no communication from Northern Rail, maybe they have seen my communications / are aware they can only go down the civil route and thought it was not worth the hassle? Heres hoping

At the start of this did you speak to Northern customer service or the prosecutions/revenue protection team (DRPU as it's known). If the former then there is nothing they can do, other than advise you to go through the necessary appeals process etc.
The latter should have access to the PFN and they will also be the ones who take any further action, hence my suggestion to get in touch with them now. Previously, they may have just advised to follow the normal process, but as that has been exhausted to no avail it's clear you need someone in a position to actually be able to assist you. As much as I would advise against calling, it may be helpful to actually be able to speak to someone and have them understand the extenuating circumstances
 
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KirkstallOne

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I am sorry to hear you are going through the same process that I am suffering. My PFN was for the same reason, I was unable to obtain a ticket due to a technical issue with the machine. The PFN was issued by the squad of RPOs who hang around the Leeds excess fares window shooting fish in a barrel.

I have refused to pay the PFN and this has resulted in a summons to court to answer a criminal charge. I have pled not guilty and the first hearing is on August 3rd. There was a final offer of settlement for £150 so I would expect similar in your case.

If you are tempted to go down this route then you likely have enough time to see the outcome of my case before making your decision as my PFN was issued in November 2022.

Best of luck, please see this thread for details of my case.

 

ConfusedNorth

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I am sorry to hear you are going through the same process that I am suffering. My PFN was for the same reason, I was unable to obtain a ticket due to a technical issue with the machine. The PFN was issued by the squad of RPOs who hang around the Leeds excess fares window shooting fish in a barrel.

I have refused to pay the PFN and this has resulted in a summons to court to answer a criminal charge. I have pled not guilty and the first hearing is on August 3rd. There was a final offer of settlement for £150 so I would expect similar in your case.

If you are tempted to go down this route then you likely have enough time to see the outcome of my case before making your decision as my PFN was issued in November 2022.

Best of luck, please see this thread for details of my case.

That’s interesting, so you were issued the penalty notice in Nov but only received a court summons this month? I was hoping as I’d not heard anything they might have dropped it but sounds like I have a few months to wait

I’ve actually had no correspondence from Northern Rail, are you the same? I appealed the my penalty notice the same day I recieved it and have only had emails from The Penalty Servies to say each of my appeals have been rejected but nothing from Northern Rail and nothing in the post.

I’m hoping it means they have decided to drop chasing anything, but more concered it may be lost in the post. My street has 3 or 4 streets around with near identical names so it’s common for post to get lost.

At the start of this did you speak to Northern customer service or the prosecutions/revenue protection team (DRPU as it's known). If the former then there is nothing they can do, other than advise you to go through the necessary appeals process etc.
The latter should have access to the PFN and they will also be the ones who take any further action, hence my suggestion to get in touch with them now. Previously, they may have just advised to follow the normal process, but as that has been exhausted to no avail it's clear you need someone in a position to actually be able to assist you. As much as I would advise against calling, it may be helpful to actually be able to speak to someone and have them understand the extenuating circumstances
I spoke to Northern Rail, and tried to place a complaint, they then put me through to the prosecution team, who said I must appeal it and the appeal outcome is final. I have not spoken to them since my last appeal was rejected.

As they’ve not chased me yet, I was going to keep my head down and hope they’ve dropped it. I didn’t want to chase and make them aware to the fact, I have not been chased

Is this correct, they must chase within six months or it is dropped?
 

KirkstallOne

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@ConfusedNorth I believe I had at least one letter demanding payment, possibly several although I have not kept records. Like you I hoped that they would drop the matter since I felt I had an valid reason for not having a ticket and was perfectly willing to fight it in court.

Then in May I received a Single Justice Procedure Notice inviting me to plead guilty or not guilty to a RoRA offence, accompanied by a final offer of settlement to dispose of the matter. The not guilty plea was returned directly to Doncaster Magistrate's court.
 

Watershed

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That’s interesting, so you were issued the penalty notice in Nov but only received a court summons this month? I was hoping as I’d not heard anything they might have dropped it but sounds like I have a few months to wait
They have up to six months from the date of the alleged offence to begin a prosecution - although again, given their gross incompetence, it wouldn't surprise me if they started a prosecution that is out of time. It might take a week or so after they begin any prosecution for you to receive the SJPN (again, even though they are not legally allowed to bring a RoRA prosecution using the SJPN procedure).

As they’ve not chased me yet, I was going to keep my head down and hope they’ve dropped it. I didn’t want to chase and make them aware to the fact, I have not been chased

Is this correct, they must chase within six months or it is dropped?
Yes, the six month time limit is absolute for this category of offence. Although as mentioned above, Northern seem to have little regard for complying with the law...
 

Haywain

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They have up to six months from the date of the alleged offence to begin a prosecution - although again, given their gross incompetence, it wouldn't surprise me if they started a prosecution that is out of time. It might take a week or so after they begin any prosecution for you to receive the SJPN (again, even though they are not legally allowed to bring a RoRA prosecution using the SJPN procedure).
In @KirkstallOne's case, the timing appears to have been satisfied with the SJPN being received in May. The handling of the matter under the SJPN will presumably be moot as it will now be heard before magistrates following the not guilty plea.
 

John Palmer

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In @KirkstallOne's case, the timing appears to have been satisfied with the SJPN being received in May. The handling of the matter under the SJPN will presumably be moot as it will now be heard before magistrates following the not guilty plea.
If, at the forthcoming case management hearing, the proceedings are held to be a nullity following a submission that Northern Trains Ltd had no authority to initiate proceedings by SJPN, then there will be no case to go before magistrates for determination. Even if such a submission is rejected and the magistrates convict following trial of the issues in the light of the not guilty plea, that verdict might still be overturned on appeal on the basis that the magistrates were wrong to entertain proceedings begun without the requisite authority.
 

basfordlad

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@ConfusedNorth I believe I had at least one letter demanding payment, possibly several although I have not kept records. Like you I hoped that they would drop the matter since I felt I had an valid reason for not having a ticket and was perfectly willing to fight it in court.

Then in May I received a Single Justice Procedure Notice inviting me to plead guilty or not guilty to a RoRA offence, accompanied by a final offer of settlement to dispose of the matter. The not guilty plea was returned directly to Doncaster Magistrate's court.
I was advised on another thread that once someone had logged an appeal this could not proceed to a case in the magistrates court
 

MrJeeves

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I was advised on another thread that once someone had logged an appeal this could not proceed to a case in the magistrates court

It can't. They have mistakenly attempted to prosecute for failing to provide name and address after not having a valid ticket, but the person's name and address is clearly on the penalty fare notice, hence they can't be prosecuted for this.
 

Watershed

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I was advised on another thread that once someone had logged an appeal this could not proceed to a case in the magistrates court
It's no longer permitted for them to prosecute under section 5(3) of RoRA (travelling without having paid the fare, with intent to avoid payment) or the Byelaws (notably Byelaw 18 - boarding a train without a valid ticket). These are the main "ticketing" offences which TOCs tend to use in Court.

Unfortunately, it doesn't bar them from prosecuting other offences, such as section 5(1) of RoRA (failing to either show a valid ticket, pay the fare, or provide your name and address).

This is essentially an offence used when someone doesn't cooperate, and so the drafters of the Penalty Fares Regulations probably didn't consider it necessary to exclude prosecution for this offence - the very fact a name and address is required for a Penalty Fare to be issued is evidence that you cannot have committed a section 5(1) RoRA offence!

Sadly, this does not seem to have stopped Northern from bringing prosecutions which are completely unfounded (such as the section 5(1) RoRA prosecution that @KirkstallOne is facing), and from doing so in a way that they're not legally allowed to (they can only use the SJPN procedure for Byelaw cases - they have to apply for a summons for a RoRA prosecution).
 

ConfusedNorth

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What a nightmare all this has been

I spoke to transport focus, they’ve said there’s nothing they can do

Northern rail have advised the penalty services have just made an admin error, so it doesn’t impact the judgement

I’ve now had a letter saying if I don’t pay by the 17th they will start proceedings. Has anyone got a general idea of what to expect if it’s goes to court? Or what could happen if I lose the case? Compare to some of the other cases, does my evidence look strong?

Thanks
 

ConfusedNorth

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Can anyone clarify regarding the civil and criminal side? Because i’ve appealed Northern can’t take criminal proceedings? Is this correct? And if I was to be found guilty what kind of punishment is normal for these cases?
 

Watershed

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What a nightmare all this has been

I spoke to transport focus, they’ve said there’s nothing they can do
Unfortunately, there is no regulatory body that is able - or willing - to hold Northern to account here :(

Northern rail have advised the penalty services have just made an admin error, so it doesn’t impact the judgement
Their decision is fundamentally wrong, but sadly this was somewhat foreseeable given the utter incompetence we've seen from them in other cases. It doesn't change the fact that Northern are legally barred from prosecuting you in relation to the main offences that they might allege you have committed here.

Northern aren't barred from prosecuting you under section 5(1) of RoRA or other offences not explicitly included in the legal bar, but based on what you have told us, you haven't committed an offence under section 5(1) of RoRA because you gave your name and address and offered to pay the fare.

Despite Northern's rather convenient misquoting of the law, you only commit an offence if you fail or refuse to do all three of the things that the law gives you the choice between doing (produce a valid ticket, give your details, or pay the fare). This is known as the "three fails" (for good reason!) to most revenue protection staff, but evidently Northern haven't got the foggiest about even this most basic of legal principles.

I’ve now had a letter saying if I don’t pay by the 17th they will start proceedings.
This obviously puts you in an invidious position. If you pay, you'll forfeit £100 odd - even though you have done nothing wrong and should only have had to pay the fare due. But if you don't pay, you'll have to spend a lot of time, effort and possibly expense defending yourself in Court because Northern seem to have no scruples about breaking the law and prosecuting you anyway (or prosecuting you for an offence which their own evidence proves you didn't commit). I certainly wouldn't blame you if you decide that paying is the least worst option.

Has anyone got a general idea of what to expect if it’s goes to court?
@KirkstallOne and @Hodgs0 , who have both had similar experiences, may be able to advise on this point. But in brief, it seems that the likes of Northern eventually withdraw any contested case in these sorts of circumstances, typically around the time of the first case management hearing.

Obviously there is no guarantee that this will happen, but if they took even a cursory glance at your case (something which it seems they can't be bothered to do at an earlier stage), they would realise they are on to a loser.

Or what could happen if I lose the case?
In the worst case scenario, you would be fined and ordered to pay the fare due, plus costs and the Victim Surcharge - see the Sentencing Guidelines. However, as described in previous posts, based on what you've said you have committed no offence, and Northern are in any event barred from prosecuting you for most of the offences that would normally be alleged. So long as you are properly prepared and (ideally) legally represented, it seems very unlikely that you would lose.

Compare to some of the other cases, does my evidence look strong?

Thanks
I would say it is strong overall. The only thing which I think weakens your case is the fact you lack a picture specifically showing the inability to buy a ticket (as opposed to getting a Promise to Pay Notice). But given what we've said before, this doesn't really change the position overall.
 

KirkstallOne

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Hi @ConfusedNorth

Northern have little realistic chance of convicting you of a criminal offence for the unpaid penalty fare. The main reason for this is the Penalty Fares regulations, specifically S.11(3) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 which states that because you have appealed, and Northern have not cancelled the Penalty Fare before the appeal decision was given, they are not allowed to prosecute you under S.5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (intent to evade a fare), or any of the railway bye-laws (e.g. the strict liability offences of ensuring you have a valid ticket for your journey).

The proper route for Northern to pursue at this point is to attempt recovery of the unpaid Penalty Fare as a 'civil debt'. They have two routes for pursuing this, either via a complaint at the magistrates court (in which case the court may order you to pay the debt), or by obtaining a county court judgement (CCJ) at the county court.

However, it is unheard of in these forums for railway operators to pursue civil debts via either of those routes so it is unlikely they will do this.

What they will do, if my recent experience is their standard practice, is unlawfully attempt to launch a criminal prosecution via a Single Justice Procedure Notice for a Section 5(1) Regulation of Railways Act offence. This will allege that because you have still not paid the original fare for your journey you are guilty of the offence (you are not). They will probably send this shortly before the 6 month time limit for charging summary offences expires.

I believe your alleged offence occurred in early April, so this will likely not happen until late September. Before then they are likely to send you several letters threatening criminal prosecution and demanding payment of the original penalty fare plus an administrative fee.

You have several options here:

1) Pay the penalty fare, including any admin fee, as requested. This will close the matter removing any risk of having to attend criminal or civil court, or receiving either a CCJ or a criminal record.

2) If you are determined not to pay this, then do nothing, ignore any further letters demanding payment, and return to the forum if and when you receive a Single Justice Procedure Notice or a summons to the magistrates court.

If you go down this route, you may have to present your own defence in court to a criminal charge (or in representations to the prosecutor before the court date). The exact nature of this defence will be determined by the nature of the charge, at this point we have nothing but threatening letters. However, it is likely they will charge you with a S5.(1) offence in which case your defence will be quite simple - you gave your name and address on request and so cannot have committed the offence in question. If you are not confident or willing to present your defence in court, then I would not advise this option. You could get a solicitor to represent you, but given you indicated money was tight this is going to cost you more than option 1) with little chance of recovering your costs. To defend yourself properly you will need to read and understand the relevant sections of the The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, and the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

Also please bear in mind that you may be found guilty regardless of how good your defence is. This would result in a criminal conviction for a recordable offence which will show on a standard DBS check for 6 years. You would also be ordered to pay several hundreds of pounds minimum. I would say this outcome is very unlikely, but it cannot be discounted entirely so it would be remiss not to emphasise this fact.

3) Engage with Northern's DPRU directly now and try to negotiate a settlement (using some of the arguments already outlined about how they are barred from prosecuting you, that your appeal should have been upheld, that you will be defending yourself if they try to take you to court etc.)

I would recommend either 1 or 2, pay up now or let Northern reveal their hand first.

Northern rail have advised the penalty services have just made an admin error, so it doesn’t impact the judgement
Northern speak with a forked tongue here, as amazingly they were able to review my appeal and cancel the penalty fare once it became clear that they didn't have a leg to stand on. They even stated this as the reason for withdrawing the case in open court. Seems they are just hiding behind the independent appeals service when it suits them.
 
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Watershed

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Thanks for a comprehensive overview @KirkstallOne!

You could get a solicitor to represent you, but given you indicated money was tight this is going to cost you more than option 1) with little chance of recovering your costs.
It's also worth noting that you cannot recover costs at all unless you apply for Legal Aid. It's very unlikely that this kind of case would qualify for Legal Aid, but one of the prerequisites to any claim for legal costs is being able to produce proof that you've been refused Legal Aid funding.

Also please bear in mind that you may be found guilty regardless of how good your defence is. This would result in a criminal conviction for a recordable offence which will show on a standard DBS check for 6 years. You would also be ordered to pay several hundreds of pounds minimum. I would say this outcome is very unlikely, but it cannot be discounted entirely so it would be remiss not to emphasise this fact.
This is absolutely true. That being said, there is always the option of an appeal to the Crown Court, so if the OP did go down this road and were to be (wrongly IMHO) convicted, that would not necessarily have to be the end of the matter.
 

Puffing Devil

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Two points to add to the excellent discussion and summary.

1. I have never seen an application for a civil debt order in the Magistrate's court; I don't believe that it is intended to be used in these circumstances and that the County Court would be the route to go down. That would also result in a hearing on the balance of probabilities, and the judge would hear the case, unless the OP settled when a summons was issued.

2. Any appeal against a conviction in this case on the interpretation of the law would be by way of "case stated" to the High Court, as the argument is about the interpretation of the law, not the facts. These I have seen. More here https://www.defence-barrister.co.uk/appeal-by-way-of-case-stated
 

KirkstallOne

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Two points to add to the excellent discussion and summary.

1. I have never seen an application for a civil debt order in the Magistrate's court; I don't believe that it is intended to be used in these circumstances and that the County Court would be the route to go down. That would also result in a hearing on the balance of probabilities, and the judge would hear the case, unless the OP settled when a summons was issued.

Thanks for the additional info. There seems to be provisions in the Magistrates Court Act 1980 about recovering 'civil debt' (section 58) but wasn't sure if this was ever done in practice.
 
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