Heritage fleets: should bus companies keep them going?

[Flange Squeal]

Stagecoach are looking to sell several members of their heritage fleet. A poster asks interested parties to contact [email protected] to arrange viewings. The poster is attached but the vehicles listed are (arranged oldest to newest):

• 1929 Leyland Titan TD1 UF 4813
• 1950 AEC Regal AHC 411
• 1956 Leyland Titan PD2 LRV 992
• 1959 Leyland Atlantean 872 ATA
• 1964 Leyland PD3 409 DCD
• 1966 AEC Routemaster JJD 451D
• 1966 Bristol FLF JAH 552D
• 1967 Leyland Titan PD2 DHC 782E
• 1968 AEC Regent MFN 946F
• 1988 Leyland Olympian F601 MSL
• 1991 Dennis Dart J501 GCD

 

[M803UYA]

Stagecoach are looking to sell several members of their heritage fleet. A poster asks interested parties to contact [email protected] to arrange viewings. The poster is attached but the vehicles listed are (arranged oldest to newest):

• 1929 Leyland Titan TD1 UF 4813
• 1950 AEC Regal AHC 411
• 1956 Leyland Titan PD2 LRV 992
• 1959 Leyland Atlantean 872 ATA
• 1964 Leyland PD3 409 DCD
• 1966 AEC Routemaster JJD 451D
• 1966 Bristol FLF JAH 552D
• 1967 Leyland Titan PD2 DHC 782E
• 1968 AEC Regent MFN 946F
• 1988 Leyland Olympian F601 MSL
• 1991 Dennis Dart J501 GCD

Goes to show how wonderful Stagecoach really is and the lack of respect the new brooms have for the business they lead now. Wasn't the 1929 Titan at Amberley? Shouldn't be too hard to 'donate' the bus to them to secure it's future. The two newest vehicles on that list - the first service buses the group bought new post privatisation. Wouldn't cost a great deal to keep those vehicles going....

 

[overthewater]

The way the Germans have treated Arriva, I think its comes as no surprise this has happened, it's only going to get worse with Stagecoach now. You never know, maybe Brian Souter will end up buying a few for his own collection.

 

[Flange Squeal]

The way the Germans have treated Arriva, I think its comes as no surprise this has happened, it's only going to get worse with Stagecoach now. You never know, maybe Brian Souter will end up buying a few for his own collection.

Looks like he is acquiring the tri-axle Megadekka Olympian (F110 NES) for his own collection according to a tweet by Steven Knight Media, albeit that's not a vehicle from the advert here but shows it's perhaps not an impossibility.

https://twitter.com/skmpub/status/1590177367628079107

 

[DunsBus]

The way the Germans have treated Arriva, I think its comes as no surprise this has happened, it's only going to get worse with Stagecoach now. You never know, maybe Brian Souter will end up buying a few for his own collection.

There's an irony here in that one of the first things which Stagecoach did on acquiring Busways in 1994 was to sell the Busways heritage fleet as it was non-core to the main business. Now it's Stagecoach's own heritage fleet which is being sold, for the very same reason.

Antique buses - which see occasional use - don't make money.

 

[Towers]

Very, very sad to see this. Stagecoach has a good relationship with the bus preservation movement going back decades, particularly around the south coast depots; there's always a Queen Mary or two sitting somewhere inside Farlington or Chichester. Presumably we'll see their heritage fleets in other parts of the empire dispensed with soon in similar fashion. I sincerely hope we don't lose any to foreign lands or awful cafe/camper conversions etc

 

[Flange Squeal]

Presumably we'll see their heritage fleets in other parts of the empire dispensed with soon in similar fashion. I sincerely hope we don't lose any to foreign lands or awful cafe/camper conversions etc

A tweet this afternoon by Steven Knight Media says: "Stagecoach has confirmed that the heritage vehicles it announced for sale yesterday is only the beginning and vehicles operating with companies in the Midlands, North and Scotland will be listed for disposal of over the coming weeks and months".

Source: https://twitter.com/skmpub/status/1590732189863641088

 

[overthewater]

A tweet this afternoon by Steven Knight Media says: "Stagecoach has confirmed that the heritage vehicles it announced for sale yesterday is only the beginning and vehicles operating with companies in the Midlands, North and Scotland will be listed for disposal of over the coming weeks and months".

Source: https://twitter.com/skmpub/status/1590732189863641088

Does anyone know which heritage vehicles in Scotland will go up for sale? Many of them were recently transferred over to Brian Souter.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I know this is being a bit controversial and I'm not being contentious for the sake of it.

We're talking about 11 vehicles here, plus another x number in the rest of the country. I'm of a certain age and like nostalgia like everyone else, and would certainly appreciate some of these vehicles perhaps being bequeathed to museums or charitable trusts etc.

However, how much are Stagecoach spending each year on these vehicles in terms of tax, insurance, maintenance etc? The cost can be determined. However, what is the actual value? Amongst the enthusiast fraternity, there is an understandable wish to see vehicles preserved but for the average passenger, what is the actual benefit?

To be honest, I think that Stagecoach lost its mojo about 3/4 years ago and whilst this may be a saddening event, there are bigger and more concerning issues about how Stagecoach is going.

 

[Robertj21a]

I know this is being a bit controversial and I'm not being contentious for the sake of it.

We're talking about 11 vehicles here, plus another x number in the rest of the country. I'm of a certain age and like nostalgia like everyone else, and would certainly appreciate some of these vehicles perhaps being bequeathed to museums or charitable trusts etc.

However, how much are Stagecoach spending each year on these vehicles in terms of tax, insurance, maintenance etc? The cost can be determined. However, what is the actual value? Amongst the enthusiast fraternity, there is an understandable wish to see vehicles preserved but for the average passenger, what is the actual benefit?

To be honest, I think that Stagecoach lost its mojo about 3/4 years ago and whilst this may be a saddening event, there are bigger and more concerning issues about how Stagecoach is going.

I think you can keep a good heritage fleet to show your history when you are a vibrant, thriving, company.
Unfortunately, Stagecoach has slipped down the ladder in recent years and the new owners are unlikely to improve on that (imho).

 

[Megafuss]

I know this is being a bit controversial and I'm not being contentious for the sake of it.

We're talking about 11 vehicles here, plus another x number in the rest of the country. I'm of a certain age and like nostalgia like everyone else, and would certainly appreciate some of these vehicles perhaps being bequeathed to museums or charitable trusts etc.

However, how much are Stagecoach spending each year on these vehicles in terms of tax, insurance, maintenance etc? The cost can be determined. However, what is the actual value? Amongst the enthusiast fraternity, there is an understandable wish to see vehicles preserved but for the average passenger, what is the actual benefit?

To be honest, I think that Stagecoach lost its mojo about 3/4 years ago and whilst this may be a saddening event, there are bigger and more concerning issues about how Stagecoach is going.

When I saw the headline, I thought they meant the dodgy MANs' still trundling around west Newcastle....

You are right though. I doubt a company like ASDA keeps expired tills for old times sake.

 

[STINT47]

You are right though. I doubt a company like ASDA keeps expired tills for old times sake.

It's not ASDA but Boots has a museum collection at their head office in Nottingham. It's full of artifacts including a few tills.

In my opinion a small amount of heritage collections a worthwhile endeavour. A company shouldn't be all about profits.

 

[Andyh82]

When I saw the headline, I thought they meant the dodgy MANs' still trundling around west Newcastle....

You are right though. I doubt a company like ASDA keeps expired tills for old times sake.

I bet they do, I know Sainsburys have an archive/museum

The point is, in the Stagecoach group accounts, how significant is the cost of the heritage fleet at full group level, I bet it’s hardly worth mentioning

 

[johnw]

A poor move by Stagecoach, though I think there was a case to rationalise the fleet which could have been a compromise. There seems an excessive amount of Routemasters, and the Eastern Counties Bristol FLF at Midlands - a former United Counties depot For example.

 

[AVK17]

I bet they do, I know Sainsburys have an archive/museum

The point is, in the Stagecoach group accounts, how significant is the cost of the heritage fleet at full group level, I bet it’s hardly worth mentioning

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the heritage fleet is available to hire and often used for weddings etc... so some vehicles may actually be bringing in a bit of cash. It's just a drop in the ocean of the group's finances either way. To me this decision looks like trying to rid the company of the last vestiges of Sir Brian.

 

[Towers]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the heritage fleet is available to hire and often used for weddings etc... so some vehicles may actually be bringing in a bit of cash. It's just a drop in the ocean of the group's finances either way. To me this decision looks like trying to rid the company of the last vestiges of Sir Brian.

In fairness, I suspect the fleet costs significantly more than it would ever be likely to earn. Diesel costs and recent legal changes regarding the maximum age of tyres are two obvious current considerations, and there will be plenty of others no doubt. The UK industry has a long tradition of supporting and taking part in the preservation and enthusiast movements, and despite this unfortunate news I hope that Stagecoach doesn't choose to abandon that altogether; e.g. still attending rallies with members of the service fleet, etc.

 

[MotCO]

I think you can keep a good heritage fleet to show your history when you are a vibrant, thriving, company.

The Delaine is a small, successful,family owned company, and has its own museum featuring former buses and paraphernalia.

Stagecoach are looking to sell several members of their heritage fleet.

Is it clear that Stagecoach want to sell its old buses, or does it just want to make sure they go to a good home? I suspect their book value is negligible.

 

[Towers]

The Delaine is a small, successful,family owned company, and has its own museum featuring former buses and paraphernalia.



Is it clear that Stagecoach want to sell its old buses, or does it just want to make sure they go to a good home? I suspect their book value is negligible.

It would be a rather odd approach if finding a 'good home' meant removing them from the care of a major bus operator? I think it's quite apparent that a decision has been made to remove what is seen as a needless expense from the business. Perhaps understandable in these current times, but still sad nonetheless.

 

[fgwrich]

The Delaine is a small, successful,family owned company, and has its own museum featuring former buses and paraphernalia.



Is it clear that Stagecoach want to sell its old buses, or does it just want to make sure they go to a good home? I suspect their book value is negligible.

I think it’s definitely a case of wanting to sell it's "old buses" than finding a good home for them - there aren't any conditions applied in this sale, nor any guide prices either, so in effect anyone from a preservationist to a business wanting something old to convert into a bar / motorhome / whatever else could end up bidding and being successful.

Having been involved in a few events where Stagecoach heritage vehicles have attended, I still feel it is a rather sad end to the Heritage Fleet - both 501 and 601 often attended events such as Alton, and this year another opportunity was taken to do another Stagecoach Stripe lineup.

 

[GusB]

Like it or not, the current owners of the Stagecoach Group are unlikely to care about any heritage. It's purely and simply an investment that needs to make money. The heritage fleet clearly doesn't make enough money and therefore it needs to go.

There's nothing stopping a group of like-minded enthusiasts stepping in to purchase some of the vehicles that have been put up for sale.

 

[Titfield]

Has anybody asked Stagecoach why they are disposing of the heritage fleet or has some sort of rationale been given? (as opposed to the speculation on this forum).

 

[DunsBus]

Has anybody asked Stagecoach why they are disposing of the heritage fleet or has some sort of rationale been given? (as opposed to the speculation on this forum).

As @GusB says above, the main one is money. Wheels which don't turn, won't earn. It's also non-core to the main business.

I remember Lothian Buses, under its previous MD, assembling a heritage fleet and using it for running days. A fleet which is now mothballed since his departure, and indeed a number of vehicles have since been sold with a question mark hanging over the future of the others.

Heritage may be fun, but it doesn't pay the bills.

 

[SLC001]

Old buses are only really relevant to those old people that grew up with them and these people are reducing in number. Like pre WWII "classic" cars, their value and cache falls over time. Old buses require more maintenance as well as secure storage which is at some cost and when the beanies look at this cost, they will question the need to keep them. If people value them, they should pay for them and while this approach has led to the sad loss of much of our heritage only so much can be done. At least they were saved and there is still a chance they can be found good homes.

 

[GusB]

Old buses are only really relevant to those old people that grew up with them and these people are reducing in number. Like pre WWII "classic" cars, their value and cache falls over time. Old buses require more maintenance as well as secure storage which is at some cost and when the beanies look at this cost, they will question the need to keep them. If people value them, they should pay for them and while this approach has led to the sad loss of much of our heritage only so much can be done. At least they were saved and there is still a chance they can be found good homes.

Do please be careful with the term "old people", especially when two of the buses listed in the opening post were from 1988 and 1991 respectively

 

[Busaholic]

Old buses are only really relevant to those old people that grew up with them and these people are reducing in number. Like pre WWII "classic" cars, their value and cache falls over time. Old buses require more maintenance as well as secure storage which is at some cost and when the beanies look at this cost, they will question the need to keep them. If people value them, they should pay for them and while this approach has led to the sad loss of much of our heritage only so much can be done. At least they were saved and there is still a chance they can be found good homes.

1) Old people are not reducing in number - for each one that dies, another one (or more) replaces them in statistical terms
2) It follows therefore that the variety of what might be termed 'old buses' increases too
3) You seem to be suggesting that the past, even the fairly recent past, has no relevance - I regard this as a blinkered point of view which, in part, leads to many of the problems that so many societies are facing in the 'modern world'
4) You are, of course, right about maintenance and storage
5) Accountants, or 'beanies' as you call them, must have their say, but in the case of a large public company their history and antecedents (assuming there isn't too much they have good cause to wish was forgotten) should be a subject which certain people are given the task to record for posterity and, in the case of Stagecoach, the retention of some vehicles would appear to be part of that.

 

[tbtc]

To put this into some context, do First/ Arriva/ National Express/ Go Ahead have any/many preserved vehicles?

First here in South Yorkshire are pretty good at painting midlife machines in “retro” liveries, but I think that any actually “vintage” vehicles are in the hands of local preservation groups/ museums etc

Whereas I don’t think Stagecoach have had many “retro” liveries in recent years in these parts (other than one Yorkshire Traction one?) but seem to have more buses preserved mainly?

 

[overthewater]

The Scottish Fleet did make money, they were used on Summer tours, private hire etc. Some of the fleet was out few times a week. However with covid most of them must have been off the road for 3 years now.

 

[Towers]

Do please be careful with the term "old people", especially when two of the buses listed in the opening post were from 1988 and 1991 respectively

Indeed!

It's also interesting to note that of all the vehicles on the initial listing, the two newest that you mention could actually be said to score the highest in the relevance stakes, as they have both carried the iconic Stagecoach stripes. Many, many people with zero enthusiast interest in buses will still immediately identify with the livery, which underlines where the PR value can lie in retaining 'old buses'.

Of course, HQ would likely argue that you can paint any of the current fleet into an old livery and achieve the same, but I do think that pair in particular have quite a potential value to the business. Alas, no doubt they'll manage without them!

 

[M803UYA]

First here in South Yorkshire are pretty good at painting midlife machines in “retro” liveries, but I think that any actually “vintage” vehicles are in the hands of local preservation groups/ museums etc

First South Yorkshire, and other First operating companies do at least donate significant vehicles to preservation groups. So there are a number of vehicles which have passed into preservation through this method. One would argue that the first new double deck bus and Dennis Dart of the post privatisation era of Stagecoach merit some retention or at very least merit donation to the movement to groups which can ensure the long term survival of those vehicles. I was at the Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Trust site at Bridgeton last weekend and was looking at a 2004 Dennis Trident which had spent it's working life in London before operating in Glasgow for the 2014 Commonwealth Games. It was based at that depot. For the sum of £1, it was donated to GVVT. It was a vehicle which would command a sensible sum of money were it to be sold on the open market to a second owner.
Those significant Stagecoach vehicles (the first Dart, the first F reg Olympian of the privatisation era, the 1929 Leyland) wouldn't be worth more than £50,000 and given the turnover of Stagecoach, it's money they wouldn't even register.
Far too many preserved vehicles fall upon hard times once they change hands. Look at how many vehicles operated for Steve Morris' Quantock Motor Services operation, for instance. Once he became bored of the vehicle(s) they were sold to the first person offering £25,000. Hence why many are now mobile catering vehicles and live abroad. Or a worse outcome.
I accept that heritage vehicles rely on the support of their owners for their continued existence, but one might argue these vehicles should survive, not be exported to the USA and endangered needlessly. Which is the situation that is occurring. Stagecoach could avoid this, but the people in charge don't care about that. Will those people be in charge of the company in 5 years time or will they have moved onto something else? They're not people who look beyond the numbers.

 

[Towers]

You make a superb point. The elderly Leyland really ought to have been donated to the Amberley museum where it spends much of its time, and LRV 992 has spent years in the custody of a Portsmouth preservation group where it would be guaranteed a grateful and secure home. I feel there may be a significant degree of goodwill being junked here, and probably a degree of apologetic embarrassment from some management at a local level. Hopefully appropriate strings might be able to be pulled to at least make an effort to get vehicles to the right homes, but it looks like the disposal process may be very much a centralised affair which doesn't inspire confidence.