Heritage railway financial problems.

[Falcon1200]

And sooner of later HMRC are going to decide to change VAT on railways who offer Experiences rather than rail transport which will increase fares by 20%.

Almost nobody uses a heritage railway to actually go somewhere, the timetables often aren't set up to make it workable.

As long as a heritage railway has more than one station, surely it is then providing a rail transport service, regardless of how many people actually use it as such - And how would the distinction between transport and an experience be made anyway? For example, on my visit to the Swanage Railway last week, I travelled from Wareham to Swanage and return, stopping off at Norden, Swanage and Corfe Castle, but never left any of the three stations; So is that an experience? Whereas, had I exited Swanage, even just for a stroll round the block, that would then be transport?

I believe that railways with only one station are indeed subject to VAT, as they obviously are not providing any form of transport service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As long as a heritage railway has more than one station, surely it is then providing a rail transport service, regardless of how many people actually use it as such - And how would the distinction between transport and an experience be made anyway? For example, on my visit to the Swanage Railway last week, I travelled from Wareham to Swanage and return, stopping off at Norden, Swanage and Corfe Castle, but never left any of the three stations; So is that an experience? Whereas, had I exited Swanage, even just for a stroll round the block, that would then be transport?

I believe that railways with only one station are indeed subject to VAT, as they obviously are not providing any form of transport service.

Swanage is rather unusual as far as heritage railways go, because it genuinely does provide a transport service, such as the Park and Ride service from Norden. People make it part of their day's experience, but the railway, for many, is far more of an interesting way of getting where you're going (like for instance travelling to the start of a hike on the open top bus) than it is an experience on its own, though no doubt some do just ride up and down like that. By contrast there isn't an awful lot in say Corwen, you might have a wander round before going back, but in reality most people are enjoying an experience which starts by parking their car in Llangollen. And similarly more people start their Ffestiniog Railway trip in Porthmadog and go to Blaenau and back as an experience, and anyone who's ever been to Blaenau can tell you it's not worth going there - the only thing of interest is the journey.

It is a complex issue, which is probably why it's simplified as far as the tax rules go.

 

[nanstallon]

Prior to Covid, I used to visit the Ffestiniog at least once a year. I've now not visited since 2019, I won't be returning until I'm able to turn up at Blaenau Ffestiniog on the day and buy a single to Porthmadog, without having to pre-book or try to work out which service is running.

I've just had a quick glance over the Ffestiniog website, unless I'm missing something, all I can book until the end of June is 'The Woodland Wonderer' from Porthmadog to Tan-Y-Bwch at the rather shocking price of £27, I'd probably take my partner with me which would double the cost to £54, so, thanks, but no thanks.

For now, my money will be going elsewhere.

I'm not surprised. Family budgets (and those of individual singletons or couples, too!) are being squeezed, and value for money has to be paramount. Frankly, tourist railways have to provide what people want and can afford, and should stop expecting customers to fit in with what they find convenient to provide.

The Talyllyn Railway, down the coast, is not obsessed with the covid mentality and when I visited in October last, there were no restrictions on what train you could travel on. That's where my money goes!

 

[Ediswan]

By contrast there isn't an awful lot in say Corwen, you might have a wander round before going back, but in reality most people are enjoying an experience which starts by parking their car in Llangollen.

There is a rather nice statue of Owain Glyndŵr.

And similarly more people start their Ffestiniog Railway trip in Porthmadog and go to Blaenau and back as an experience, and anyone who's ever been to Blaenau can tell you it's not worth going there - the only thing of interest is the journey.

Blaenau is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. However, huge piles of slate rubble are not to everyone's taste.

 

[paul1609]

I'm not surprised. Family budgets (and those of individual singletons or couples, too!) are being squeezed, and value for money has to be paramount. Frankly, tourist railways have to provide what people want and can afford, and should stop expecting customers to fit in with what they find convenient to provide.

The Talyllyn Railway, down the coast, is not obsessed with the covid mentality and when I visited in October last, there were no restrictions on what train you could travel on. That's where my money goes!

Id imagine the difference is a round trip with one of their trains doesnt cost £5000 as it does on the WHR.

 

[John Luxton]

Swanage is rather unusual as far as heritage railways go, because it genuinely does provide a transport service, such as the Park and Ride service from Norden. People make it part of their day's experience, but the railway, for many, is far more of an interesting way of getting where you're going (like for instance travelling to the start of a hike on the open top bus) than it is an experience on its own, though no doubt some do just ride up and down like that. By contrast there isn't an awful lot in say Corwen, you might have a wander round before going back, but in reality most people are enjoying an experience which starts by parking their car in Llangollen. And similarly more people start their Ffestiniog Railway trip in Porthmadog and go to Blaenau and back as an experience, and anyone who's ever been to Blaenau can tell you it's not worth going there - the only thing of interest is the journey.

It is a complex issue, which is probably why it's simplified as far as the tax rules go.

Back in the late 79s early 80s much was made of using the FR to visit Llechwedd Slate Caverns with I seem to recall a bus operating on some days. Llechwedd since it lost the mine tramway and replaced it with underground trampolines seems to target a different audience these days.

I think you are looking at Corwen / Llangollen the wrong way around. When Corwen opebs in June there is a lot of potential for those visiting Llangollen from the holiday areas of Snowdonia to Park and Ride. Llangollen gets very busy at times this if coming in from the west the railway would provide a good park and ride function.

 

[Russel]

Id imagine the difference is a round trip with one of their trains doesnt cost £5000 as it does on the WHR.

Can you provide a rough breakdown of what costs are involved that add up to £5000? That seems very high.

 

[railfan99]

Given that King Charles III went briefly to school at Victoria, Australia's Geelong Grammar property called 'Timbertop' in rural Mansfield, Victoria in 1969 (and loved it):

Timbertop Geelong Grammar School · 145 Grammar School Rd, Merrijig VIC 3723, Australia

★★★★☆ · General education school

www.google.com

my prayers from this Australian state are that next weekend's coronation is successful for heritage railways throughout England and perhaps also in some other parts of the UK such as Wales.

It's remarkable how events like this can temporarily encourage us to go out and enjoy a different activity.

The coronation won't solve high inflation, rising prices at your Tesco, Sainsburys, Lidl, Aldi or Asda supermarkets or end the difficulty of getting into owner-occupied housing or paying rent if the latter increases faster than income, but it will bring more visitors to Britian, a few or more of whom may travel to the 'levelling regions' if I can use your trendy word starting with 'l'.

Let's hope it helps the finances of some of the large and medium sized railways such as NYMR, SVR and WSR to name three of many.

 

[paul1609]

Can you provide a rough breakdown of what costs are involved that add up to £5000? That seems very high.

That's what the WHR GM quotes in the video I posted up thread. I've done some team exercises with Paul at HRA but I'm not involved with the WHR personally.

 

[Alanko]

The Doon Valley railway has raised 10% of the £250k they need to purchase the buildings onsite. They have 12 weeks left to find the rest.

The pessimist in me thinks they won't make it. The optimist in me thinks they might be able to come to an arrangement with the new buyer for some of the buildings.

The realist in me wonders why they don't put some of their extensive unrestored collection on the market to release funds. Even when faced with an existential crisis, the scrap line is sacred and not to be sold off or weighed in.

 

[Falcon1200]

It is a complex issue, which is probably why it's simplified as far as the tax rules go.

Yes indeed, and hopefully it will stay simplified!

 

[WAB]

Can you provide a rough breakdown of what costs are involved that add up to £5000? That seems very high.

I would imagine the fuel consumption alone on a 5 hour journey with severe gradients and a Beyer-Garratt on the front would be quite considerable...

Prior to Covid, I used to visit the Ffestiniog at least once a year. I've now not visited since 2019, I won't be returning until I'm able to turn up at Blaenau Ffestiniog on the day and buy a single to Porthmadog, without having to pre-book or try to work out which service is running.

I've just had a quick glance over the Ffestiniog website, unless I'm missing something, all I can book until the end of June is 'The Woodland Wonderer' from Porthmadog to Tan-Y-Bwch at the rather shocking price of £27, I'd probably take my partner with me which would double the cost to £54, so, thanks, but no thanks.

You are missing something... single trips from Blaenau can be purchased on the day. You need to cross-reference the timetable with the booking page to check that your chosen train is due to run on a particular day (similar to what you had to do with the old colour-coded timetables) but there is no need to prebook.

Me in a compartment for 6!

Could be a normal service train where one ticket gets you one seat.

The general public aren't too thrilled about sharing non-corridor compartments with strangers usually.

I'm not surprised. Family budgets (and those of individual singletons or couples, too!) are being squeezed, and value for money has to be paramount. Frankly, tourist railways have to provide what people want and can afford, and should stop expecting customers to fit in with what they find convenient to provide.

Children travel for £3 compared to those figures, though... I agree the Ff&WHR is at the pricier end of the scale but you do get what you pay for.

 

[John Luxton]

I would imagine the fuel consumption alone on a 5 hour journey with severe gradients and a Beyer-Garratt on the front would be quite considerable...

You are missing something... single trips from Blaenau can be purchased on the day. You need to cross-reference the timetable with the booking page to check that your chosen train is due to run on a particular day (similar to what you had to do with the old colour-coded timetables) but there is no need to prebook.

The general public aren't too thrilled about sharing non-corridor compartments with strangers usually.

Children travel for £3 compared to those figures, though... I agree the Ff&WHR is at the pricier end of the scale but you do get what you pay for.

With regard to Blaenau services the time table is not presented in a traditional user friendly way. The way we as enthusiasts are used to columns with code letters for dates of operation or day letters.

Whilst it might not be an issue for trippers for those who plan trips and are used to traditional timetable presentation it's a pain.

What I would like to see are timetable posters displayed on stations and they are not. I am at Porthmadog at the moment and there is no conventional timetable to be seen. Everything has to be tracked down on line.

I am not anti tech one of the subjects I taught for many years was ICT. But I am aware not everyone is a heavy computer user.

But stations need timetables on the platforms showing days and dates of operation. This was always the case at FWHR.

As for sharing compartments you obviously have not travelled on Isle of Man Railways trains when they are busy! I have travelled in full compartments much fuller than FWHR.

I am not envisaging sardine style but at least 4 pax to a compartment at each window seat is reasonable.

John

 

[12C]

Just to add to earlier comments about the possible effect of the cost of living crisis on preserved line visitor numbers, I happened to visit the East Lancs today for the ‘Day out with Thomas’ event with the kids.

Sadly visitor levels seemed to be down on previous years (we last visited the event in October 2021 which was a sell out). This time I’d say our train was barely half full, in fact the coach we were supposed to be booked in was otherwise empty and we were asked to move further up the train where there was a bit more atmosphere.

A shame as it was a brilliant day, the volunteers went above and beyond talking to everyone and making a fuss of the kids, and certainly wasn’t a rip off at around £50 for a family of 3 including a ride behind Thomas, unlimited travel on other services, entertainment, fairground rides, even face painting and balloons at no extra cost (which are usually an add on at similar events). Unfortunately I guess there are now a growing amount of families who are having to prioritise the essentials over spending money on days out.

 

[railfan99]

The West Somerset Railway's newsletter 'The Platform' appeared in my email inbox overnight.

The Chairman states that the 'start of the season in March, and over Easter, went very well' and the Steam Gala also went very well. He did say there have been some 'quieter days'.

The Gala's Chairman said the Spring Steam Gala (a four day event) saw more than 3,500 passengers.

This is fewer than the 6,500 the Severn Valley Railway carried during its Diesel Festival. It's nonetheless pleasing that the WSR's Steam Gala appears to have been a reasonable financial success. I don't know how many tickets were sold at adult and (if offered) concession or child rates. From memory, adults cost GBP42. Fares charged were higher than for a normal Rover ticket: GBP30.

Strangely although the WSR newsletter was issued almost two weeks after its Diesel Gala, I can't find any mention of passenger numbers for that event.

 

[Cowley]

Strangely although the WSR newsletter was issued almost two weeks after its Diesel Gala, I can't find any mention of passenger numbers for that event.

I’m lead to believe that it was a pretty successful event (although I don’t know the numbers either). I’m actually going up there tomorrow for a trip behind gala visitor 25309 which is on the diesel diagram this weekend before it heads off (couldn’t make the gala as we were away unfortunately).

 

[railfan99]

I’m actually going up there tomorrow for a trip behind gala visitor 25309 which is on the diesel diagram this weekend before it heads off (couldn’t make the gala as we were away unfortunately).

I assume by 'tomorrow' you mean 'Sunday 25' not 'Saturday 24', as you posted after midnight UK time.

If you hear anything about patronage (Gala or 'normal' WSR trains) and it's suitable to appear, please let us know: it might even be a glimmer of positivity among economic gloom.

One source indicated that today (Saturday) 7029 'Clun Castle' is hauling the Vintage Trains day tour all the way to Minehead, though VT's site suggests it's two (one on loan) 'Manor' class locos from Bishop's Lydeard, more in keeping with usual practice for tours visiting WSR. I've yet to travel behind a (steam) 'Castle' but they must be about the best looking steam locos worldwide.

Realtime Trains | 1Z10 0608 Birmingham Snow Hill to Bishops Lydeard | 24/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z10 0608 departure from Birmingham Snow Hill to Bishops Lydeard on 24/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[nanstallon]

After all the turmoil of recent years on the WSR, it is good to hear positive news. May the trend continue.

If Pendennis Castle (a red route availability loco) is running to minehead, this indicates that the line has been fettled up to carry these heavier locos.

 

[The exile]

And how would the distinction between transport and an experience be made anyway? For example, on my visit to the Swanage Railway last week, I travelled from Wareham to Swanage and return, stopping off at Norden, Swanage and Corfe Castle, but never left any of the three stations; So is that an experience? Whereas, had I exited Swanage, even just for a stroll round the block, that would then be transport?

I believe that railways with only one station are indeed subject to VAT, as they obviously are not providing any form of transport service.

I would suggest that if a railway does not make it possible for an individual traveller to turn up "on spec" and make / pay for a single journey (or a return one, of course) between any two stations on the line by any train that is timetabled to stop there, standing if necessary - then it is not genuinely offering a transport service by that train.

 

[nanstallon]

I would suggest that if a railway does not make it possible for an individual traveller to turn up "on spec" and make / pay for a single journey (or a return one, of course) between any two stations on the line by any train that is timetabled to stop there, standing if necessary - then it is not genuinely offering a transport service by that train.

I agree. Those railways which are only doing fixed itineraries, only running if there are enough people, could be on shaky ground. What is the VAT situation regarding railtours? You could say that as long as there ia some time to look around at the far end, it is a transport facility, but what if the service trains between the same points are faster and cheaper?

 

[The exile]

I agree. Those railways which are only doing fixed itineraries, only running if there are enough people, could be on shaky ground. What is the VAT situation regarding railtours? You could say that as long as there ia some time to look around at the far end, it is a transport facility, but what if the service trains between the same points are faster and cheaper?

Think "only running if there are enough people" is fine as long as "enough" is 1, otherwise you would run into problems with little river ferries which run when summoned. My days of railtouring are generally over (nothing really attracts enough to justify the cost / effort) but I would accept the principal of them being non-0% VAT rated, if the same applied to equivalents such as coach trips, package holidays etc. I've only twice used a railtour as transport and one of those was on a "grease a palm with cash on the day" basis. (The other was a very convenient Deltic run from London to Bristol - which "just happened" to go via Birmingham)

 

[WAB]

I agree. Those railways which are only doing fixed itineraries, only running if there are enough people, could be on shaky ground. What is the VAT situation regarding railtours? You could say that as long as there ia some time to look around at the far end, it is a transport facility, but what if the service trains between the same points are faster and cheaper?

This has come up time and time again, and the consensus from those in the know is that HMRC has stated in written guidance that that style of operation is zero-rated.

 

[John Luxton]

I am currently at the Welsh Highland 100 Gala fares £150 (members and other Priv rates £120). Sone of the trains have been packed.

 

[geoffk]

After all the turmoil of recent years on the WSR, it is good to hear positive news. May the trend continue.

If Pendennis Castle (a red route availability loco) is running to Minehead, this indicates that the line has been fettled up to carry these heavier locos.

Clun Castle (not Pendennis) worked to Bishop's Lydeard only and WSR traction (two Manors) took over from there. With regard to "red" route locos, the new-build Saint comes into that category, as does the 9400 class Hawksworth pannier, and both of these have run recently on the WSR.

 

[Gloster]

Clun Castle (not Pendennis) worked to Bishop's Lydeard only and WSR traction (two Manors) took over from there. With regard to "red" route locos, the new-build Saint comes into that category, as does the 9400 class Hawksworth pannier, and both of these have run recently on the WSR.

At some point, probably in the 1930s, the line was fettled up and Red locos could reach Bishop’s Lydeard, although other than Halls and Granges they were limited to 25 mph. I think I have read that the idea was that summer Saturday through trains could change locos well clear of the main line; @Taunton probably knows.

 

[Sheridan]

I am currently at the Welsh Highland 100 Gala fares £150 (members and other Priv rates £120). Sone of the trains have been packed.

Sorry to pick up on a minor typo but as it does change the meaning significantly - did you mean to say ‘some’ or ‘none’ of the trains have been packed? (I’m guessing ‘some’ but thought it worth checking!)

 

[John Luxton]

Sorry to pick up on a minor typo but as it does change the meaning significantly - did you mean to say ‘some’ or ‘none’ of the trains have been packed? (I’m guessing ‘some’ but thought it worth checking!)

Sorry phone typo should read some of the trains have been packed!

 

[Taunton]

At some point, probably in the 1930s, the line was fettled up and Red locos could reach Bishop’s Lydeard, although other than Halls and Granges they were limited to 25 mph. I think I have read that the idea was that summer Saturday through trains could change locos well clear of the main line; @Taunton probably knows.

Yes, it was Red to Bishops Lydeard, and the old (GWR-era) map on the shed foreman's office wall in the 1960s had been amended, in red ink. The line was also doubled to Lydeard as well (and Milverton on the Barnstaple line), it was all part of the Taunton 1930 station and approaches rebuilding and widening. As well as the loco change (which would save loco changing in Taunton station but need extra light engine paths across the layout at Norton Fitzwarren) it avoided the old problem of Minehead or Barnstaple trains being held on the main line at Norton waiting for their single line branches to clear.

Old story that one Sunday the engineer had asked for a trainload of ballast to Lydeard, shed foreman had just a Hall in steam, so used that, no point steaming another loco. Urgent call from the engineer on site, driver refuses to go forward, site is about a mile beyond here, what idiot sent a Red engine down The Minehead. Foreman replies what idiot made the request out TO Lydeard, and not beyond ...

I'm sure that nowadays there are proper calcs etc for each structure and loco type, rather than just a few coloured categories. There were anyway all sorts of exceptions, with speed restrictions, water on tank engines to be half filled only, etc.

 

[wce]

After all the turmoil of recent years on the WSR, it is good to hear positive news. May the trend continue.

If Pendennis Castle (a red route availability loco) is running to minehead, this indicates that the line has been fettled up to carry these heavier locos.

It’s because they changed the way they assess which engines can run which is now done on a case by case basis rather than a blanket limit, this is why 9466 can also run despite falling into the red category.

 

[John Luxton]

Update on WHR 100 Gala. Unlike Saturday trains are noticeably quieter today. From what I could see from the train there did not appear to be anywhere like the number of cars parked at Porthmadog FC. Looks like many might have just opted for a one day ticket?