Heritage railway financial problems.

[Bletchleyite]

Some Heritage railways have cut back on the number of trains operated. The huge increase in the price of coal and lubricants has forced that. At least one I know of looked at their average carryings per train and decided that reducing frequency would move passengers on to other services. Was this a good move - perhaps we will know when the figures are collated at the end of the season.

Because heritage railways are an experience for a day out, rather than a means of getting somewhere, higher frequencies are less necessary now people can look up the timetables online and make sure they get there for a specific time, maybe even booking a "railtour" online.

Cutting frequencies on a public transport rail service is undeniably negative (unless, e.g. TPE, the previous timetable was inoperable). But on a preserved line, provided there's enough capacity for the custom (else you lose money) and there's a decent experience per day (i.e. at least one out and back, ideally one in the morning and one in the afternoon, or if only one with the break at lunchtime), you'll still take money. This is the line the Ffestiniog has gone down, and it seems to work for them even though a few enthusiasts may not like it.

 

[Titfield]

Because heritage railways are an experience for a day out, rather than a means of getting somewhere, higher frequencies are less necessary now people can look up the timetables online and make sure they get there for a specific time, maybe even booking a "railtour" online.

Cutting frequencies on a public transport rail service is undeniably negative (unless, e.g. TPE, the previous timetable was inoperable). But on a preserved line, provided there's enough capacity for the custom (else you lose money) and there's a decent experience per day (i.e. at least one out and back, ideally one in the morning and one in the afternoon, or if only one with the break at lunchtime), you'll still take money. This is the line the Ffestiniog has gone down, and it seems to work for them even though a few enthusiasts may not like it.

Yes I accept that proposition but it may not work in all cases. Swanage Railway used to operate every 40 minutes between Swanage and Corfe Castle / Norden in the peak season. Much of the patronage was from customers doing a "2 centre" day out - 1/2 a day in Swanage and 1/2 a day in Corfe Castle. Swanage Railway are now operating an irregular frequency timetable with services on some days about every hour and on other days every 80 minutes. This does seem to have impacted passenger numbers but only when the figures are collated will it become clear (if indeed it does) whether the lowering of the frequency has worked.

The situation has not been helped by Go South Coast increasing the frequency of their bus service between Swanage and Corfe castle / Norden and of course the £2 one way fare as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I accept that proposition but it may not work in all cases. Swanage Railway used to operate every 40 minutes between Swanage and Corfe Castle / Norden in the peak season. Much of the patronage was from customers doing a "2 centre" day out - 1/2 a day in Swanage and 1/2 a day in Corfe Castle. Swanage Railway are now operating an irregular frequency timetable with services on some days about every hour and on other days every 80 minutes. This does seem to have impacted passenger numbers but only when the figures are collated will it become clear (if indeed it does) whether the lowering of the frequency has worked.

Swanage is a bit different because it's acting as a public transport service - i.e. providing the park and ride - there are not many preserved lines in this position*. However it might well be cheaper to provide a more frequent P&R service in addition to theirs with an electric bus, or even an electric hauled "road train" of the kind you see at beaches. An open top or classic bus would also be popular. Ideally with integrated ticketing across both.

* Some can be used as public transport, e.g. I've used Groombridge-Eridge for that purpose following some Southern Sandstone climbing - but it's not designed for that unlike Swanage and the timetable doesn't really encourage it.

 

[Titfield]

Swanage is a bit different because it's acting as a public transport service - i.e. providing the park and ride - there are not many preserved lines in this position*. However it might well be cheaper to provide a more frequent P&R service in addition to theirs with an electric bus, or even an electric hauled "road train" of the kind you see at beaches. An open top or classic bus would also be popular. Ideally with integrated ticketing across both.

* Some can be used as public transport, e.g. I've used Groombridge-Eridge for that purpose following some Southern Sandstone climbing - but it's not designed for that unlike Swanage and the timetable doesn't really encourage it.

The Park and Ride nomenclature for Norden has been dropped because whilst it met that function there were complaints (allegedly) that it didnt meet the perceived standard for a park and ride (lack of frequency) and high fare levels. Norden Car park has been renamed Purbeck Park however the station remains "Norden" but "For Purbeck Park" has been added to the station signage. I wonder if a second platform was built at Norden if a single car dmu could provide a shuttle service back and forth every 15 minutes.

The National Trust and Dorset Council have been considering a minibus service between the car park and Corfe Castle village square but there have been issues relating to funding and concerns about the turn around at CC Village Square. If it goes on towards CC village Car park and then back around it avoids having a tight turn around in the village square itself but it does add to the running time a bit. A traditional double decker (or indeed an open top) would just find it all too tight.

As regards Land Trains the Department of Transport doesnt really like these anymore because there have been a number of minor incidents caused by careless pedestrians either trying to go between the carriages or just walking out in front of them. One has been mooted for Swanage Sea Front but the idea hasnt progressed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Park and Ride nomenclature for Norden has been dropped because whilst it met that function there were complaints (allegedly) that it didnt meet the perceived standard for a park and ride (lack of frequency) and high fare levels. Norden Car park has been renamed Purbeck Park however the station remains "Norden" but "For Purbeck Park" has been added to the station signage. I wonder if a second platform was built at Norden if a single car dmu could provide a shuttle service back and forth every 15 minutes.

They were at one point using the classic DMU for Norden shuttles, but that's now been repurposed for the Wareham service I believe.

The National Trust and Dorset Council have been considering a minibus service between the car park and Corfe Castle village square but there have been issues relating to funding and concerns about the turn around at CC Village Square. If it goes on towards CC village Car park and then back around it avoids having a tight turn around in the village square itself but it does add to the running time a bit. A traditional double decker (or indeed an open top) would just find it all too tight.

Might be easier just to keep it on the main road and build a turning circle past the end of the village for a full size bus. Or potentially even consider it being a frequent Norden-Swanage P&R rather than just a Norden-Corfe one - part of the traffic problem in the village is traffic going to Swanage, and that's the only thing at the end of that main road (and that road is the only main road to Swanage). There is a bus on that road but only hourly. I think there's a good chance that with either free or very cheap parking you'd manage to sustain a 4 buses per hour open top service (extra attractiveness) between Norden, Corfe and Swanage, at least during the school holidays and on weekends from spring to autumn, and outside of that it isn't really a problem anyway. Even better if you could get an integrated parking and bus ticket as you can at Oxford, just keeps it all nice and simple.

 

[Titfield]

They were at one point using the classic DMU for Norden shuttles, but that's now been repurposed for the Wareham service I believe.



Might be easier just to keep it on the main road and build a turning circle past the end of the village for a full size bus. Or potentially even consider it being a frequent Norden-Swanage P&R rather than just a Norden-Corfe one - part of the traffic problem in the village is traffic going to Swanage, and that's the only thing at the end of that main road (and that road is the only main road to Swanage). There is a bus on that road but only hourly. I think there's a good chance that with either free or very cheap parking you'd manage to sustain a 4 buses per hour open top service (extra attractiveness) between Norden, Corfe and Swanage, at least during the school holidays and on weekends from spring to autumn, and outside of that it isn't really a problem anyway. Even better if you could get an integrated parking and bus ticket as you can at Oxford, just keeps it all nice and simple.

The Class 117 and 121 DMU were specifically refurbished to mainline standards so they could operate the Swanage <> Wareham service. The refurbishment cost over £1.3M most of which was funded by Dorset (County) Council. The Class 108 DMU (sold to Llangollen) non mainline was used for Swanage <> Norden.

I doubt that Swanage Town Council would support any form of new P and R which would decrease paid for parking in Swanage. Parking is one of the key revenue streams for Swanage Town Council - the monies being used to fund the Tourist Information Centre, the seafront especially the very good provision of public toilets in Swanage. Other towns in Dorset have lost their TICS because Dorset Council wont fund them. Interesting idea about building a turning circle.

In the high season it is every 30 minutes between Swanage and Wareham - the year round hourly Swanage <> Poole, supplemented by the summer season only Swanage <> Wareham Forest Campsites.

Corfe Castle was to have a by pass in the 1980s but Dorset Council couldnt agree a route. It was to have used the railway line (trackbed) before it was reinstated but fortunately the lack of a decision by DCC allowed Swanage Railway to move forward with its plans to reinstate the track. SR reached Corfe and Norden in the mid 1990s.

 

[Meerkat]

Some extensions must be getting considered for mothballing (Where ‘mothballing’ is just the gentle way of saying ‘closed’)?
The older ones must be more at risk - for the brutal reason that there will be fewer of those who built/funded them still around to cause a damaging civil war amongst the volunteers/supporters.
What are the most obvious overstretches (with hindsight obviously)?

 

[Train Maniac]

Some extensions must be getting considered for mothballing (Where ‘mothballing’ is just the gentle way of saying ‘closed’)?
The older ones must be more at risk - for the brutal reason that there will be fewer of those who built/funded them still around to cause a damaging civil war amongst the volunteers/supporters.
What are the most obvious overstretches (with hindsight obviously)?

From an outsiders view (Bearing in mind i have yet to visit) i feel like West Somerset could cut back services from Minehead to Wiliton only. This being the seaside touristy end of the route compared to generic somerset countryside to Bishops Lydeard. Then give GWR the option to run a shuttle to Taunton

 

[paul1609]

From an outsiders view (Bearing in mind i have yet to visit) i feel like West Somerset could cut back services from Minehead to Wiliton only. This being the seaside touristy end of the route compared to generic somerset countryside to Bishops Lydeard. Then give GWR the option to run a shuttle to Taunton

I'm not that familiar with the WSR especially it's car parking facilities but I doubt a network rail connection would be a financial priority. If you had to cut back I reckon the bit to keep financially would be Minehead to Williton lift the rest for scrap. I think the trackbed belongs to the county council anyway, make a nice cycle path.

 

[geoffk]

I'm not that familiar with the WSR especially it's car parking facilities but I doubt a network rail connection would be a financial priority. If you had to cut back I reckon the bit to keep financially would be Minehead to Williton lift the rest for scrap. I think the trackbed belongs to the county council anyway, make a nice cycle path.

Theres already a Network Rail connection at Norton Fitzwarren. Someone else will know about how it's paid for - a charge per movement perhaps?

 

[Titfield]

Theres already a Network Rail connection at Norton Fitzwarren. Someone else will know about how it's paid for - a charge per movement perhaps?

Yes there is usually both a track access charge and a station access charge when the track and / or station are used by an operator.

 

[Trainlog]

I don't think long heritage railways ripping up chunks of their line is the best answer for them atm, especially if it means losing a mainline connection or cutting off towns or villages that rely on the tourism that the heritage railway brings in to them.

I reckon that longer heritage railways can do well, but they do need to adapt the approach of how visitors can get the best out of the long heritage line for them. Some solutions for longer heritage railways could include...

• Putting into guidebooks and around stations how long it takes to certain sections of the line and what you can expect to do at them: There will be some that will enjoy staying on the train for longer sections, but there will be some that will want to get off and explore a destination on the line and by stating long in time it takes between certain stops or the whole line it can allow for visitors to plan out where they want to go and what they want to prioritize.
• If its possible to do so look into running an express train on regular operating day timetable: I reckon there would be visitors that would find this interesting for those who just want to do the full length of the line without constantly stop starting and making the journey feel longer waiting at so many stations - also it can allow the public to experience the steam loco in action, going through the passing stations especially if they don't visit galas or they haven't been to a heritage railway before.
• Diversifying the running operations on the line: (See Railadvent article on the Severn valley railway diversification plan in this post).

I appreciate the fact that operating costs, fuels and lubricants (Coal oil, paraffin etc), and volunteer shortages have hit heritage railways hard atm and these factors aren't great for longer lines, but giving up the trackbed will mean it will be hard to reverse if the line happens to change its mind in the future.

'Pre Covid Business Model No Longer Viable' - Severn Valley Railway says diversification is key to recovery plan

In an update on the recovery plan for the Severn Valley Railway, Jonathan Dunster (SVR MD), has highlighted how important commercial diversification is, and called it a crucial element in the railway's recovery plan.

www.railadvent.co.uk

 

[Titfield]

I don't think long heritage railways ripping up chunks of their line is the best answer for them atm, especially if it means losing a mainline connection or cutting off towns or villages that rely on the tourism that the heritage railway brings in to them.

I reckon that longer heritage railways can do well, but they do need to adapt the approach of how visitors can get the best out of the long heritage line for them. Some solutions for longer heritage railways could include...

• Putting into guidebooks and around stations how long it takes to certain sections of the line and what you can expect to do at them: There will be some that will enjoy staying on the train for longer sections, but there will be some that will want to get off and explore a destination on the line and by stating long in time it takes between certain stops or the whole line it can allow for visitors to plan out where they want to go and what they want to prioritize.
• If its possible to do so look into running an express train on regular operating day timetable: I reckon there would be visitors that would find this interesting for those who just want to do the full length of the line without constantly stop starting and making the journey feel longer waiting at so many stations - also it can allow the public to experience the steam loco in action, going through the passing stations especially if they don't visit galas or they haven't been to a heritage railway before.
• Diversifying the running operations on the line: (See Railadvent article on the Severn valley railway diversification plan in this post).

I appreciate the fact that operating costs, fuels and lubricants (Coal oil, paraffin etc), and volunteer shortages have hit heritage railways hard atm and these factors aren't great for longer lines, but giving up the trackbed will mean it will be hard to reverse if the line happens to change its mind in the future.

'Pre Covid Business Model No Longer Viable' - Severn Valley Railway says diversification is key to recovery plan

In an update on the recovery plan for the Severn Valley Railway, Jonathan Dunster (SVR MD), has highlighted how important commercial diversification is, and called it a crucial element in the railway's recovery plan.

www.railadvent.co.uk

The ORR (IIRC rather than HMRI) has become increasingly concerned about the quality of track maintenance on heritage railways. It has had discussions with a number of railways to be reassured that the track is maintained to the required standard. One of the problems HRs face is that appeals to restore locomotives and carriages have more pull with enthusiasts than track appeals though that is not to say that some track appeals have not been successful. Having said that I very much doubt that any HR would lift track it had literally sweated blood and tears on to lay in the first place.

Some heritage railways do have guidebooks and leaflets highlighting what there is to do at each station and in the immediate vicinity. IIRC Swanage Railway has run "express trains" at steam galas omitting the stops at Herston Halt and Harmans Cross.

I read the article about diversification but I think this approach is really only available to comparatively few hrs and more by virtue of location and size than a willingness / desire to engage in this activity. SVR is very fortunate that it has a very large population with a wide range of commercial and non commercial activities within a comparatively short distance.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dip in and out of this discussion and similar ones, would someone be kind enough to explain exactly what the pre-covid business model so generically referred to actually meant in reality?

 

[Titfield]

I think the Pro-Covid business model refers to the model of running passenger trains (usually steam hauled), with a catering offer (cafe or buffet) and retail offer (shop selling souvenirs. There would also be special events (steam galas, diesel galas, santa specials etc) and in some cases dining trains and driver experiences.

With the very considerable increase in the cost of coal and reduced volunteer numbers many HRS (but not all) have reduced running (days and service levels) and substituted diesel for steam on some services and / or days of lower passenger demand. Some have reduced the number of events because the additional revenue has been outstripped by additional costs. Many HRs are looking for additional revenue streams and to reduce costs but the high fixed cost nature of the business makes reducing costs substantially very challenging indeed especially without reducing revenue to the same degree.

 

[bramling]

I think the Pro-Covid business model refers to the model of running passenger trains (usually steam hauled), with a catering offer (cafe or buffet) and retail offer (shop selling souvenirs. There would also be special events (steam galas, diesel galas, santa specials etc) and in some cases dining trains and driver experiences.

With the very considerable increase in the cost of coal and reduced volunteer numbers many HRS (but not all) have reduced running (days and service levels) and substituted diesel for steam on some services and / or days of lower passenger demand. Some have reduced the number of events because the additional revenue has been outstripped by additional costs. Many HRs are looking for additional revenue streams and to reduce costs but the high fixed cost nature of the business makes reducing costs substantially very challenging indeed especially without reducing revenue to the same degree.

I suspect one could add to this
* running a timetabled service and accepting that some trains would be more heavily loaded than others
* being able to offer fares which people didn’t consider to be excessively expensive

All of this is something of a problem as most people don’t really want their day on a preserver railway to resemble a peak-hour train, especially when they’ve paid a lot of money for the experience.

Fewer but longer trains might be a solution in some cases, but many such railways don’t have the infrastructure set up to support this.

 

[Mike Machin]

I am in my mid 40's now and don't remember steam but I have wonderful memories of 1st gen DMU's and loco hauled with compartments etc. Things like that I love to see, steam doesn't particularly interest me and I think as time goes on 1st gen diesel will be of more excitement to more and more people as a memory from their childhoods.

Very true, but many people who were kids in the 70s, 80s and 90s never travelled by train so to them any diesel is just another train.
One of my nieces is 27, but her first ever train journey was two years ago at the age of 25 when she started work as a pharmacist. Throughout her childhood, college and university either mum or dad drove or she took the bus or coach. Her brief 18 months on the train has ended and she now drives a lovely new shiny Audi.

Most of the non-enthusiast visitors will be like her, and unless it’s steam, a train is train is train.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Long term proposition but some of the larger heritage operations could do no worse in my view than build some kind of tourist accommodation at or very near to their site or one of this sites, I'd rather spend 70 quid at heritage railway for nights accommodation and pub style meal then spend the same money in a Travelodge which I might well stay in for the sake of visiting the railway. I know that some have got bunk houses and camping or glamping but that's not for everyone and certainly isn't for me

 

[Titfield]

Long term proposition but some of the larger heritage operations could do no worse in my view than build some kind of tourist accommodation at or very near to their site or one of this sites, I'd rather spend 70 quid at heritage railway for nights accommodation and pub style meal then spend the same money in a Travelodge which I might well stay in for the sake of visiting the railway. I know that some have got bunk houses and camping or glamping but that's not for everyone and certainly isn't for me

Thats moving into a whole new line of business with which respect requires skills and experience which most HRs probably do not have. There are also the issues such as funding, land and the appropriate permissions.

 

[paul1609]

Long term proposition but some of the larger heritage operations could do no worse in my view than build some kind of tourist accommodation at or very near to their site or one of this sites, I'd rather spend 70 quid at heritage railway for nights accommodation and pub style meal then spend the same money in a Travelodge which I might well stay in for the sake of visiting the railway. I know that some have got bunk houses and camping or glamping but that's not for everyone and certainly isn't for me

A lot depends on location, but the provision of accommodation competing in the travelodge, premier inn and ibis market has tiny margins and wouldn't contribute a huge amount to a heritage railways bottom line.

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm not that familiar with the WSR especially it's car parking facilities but I doubt a network rail connection would be a financial priority. If you had to cut back I reckon the bit to keep financially would be Minehead to Williton lift the rest for scrap. I think the trackbed belongs to the county council anyway, make a nice cycle path.

Seriously? I guess you're not aware how frequently the NR connection at Norton Fitzwarren is used by steam locos running to and from the WSR. Lifting the track would be madness.

 

[31160]

Seriously? I guess you're not aware how frequently the NR connection at Norton Fitzwarren is used by steam locos running to and from the WSR. Lifting the track would be madness.

Also a lot of charters use the link in their way to Minehead, if you shuf it you lose a load of revenue

 

[ChrisC]

Some Heritage railways have cut back on the number of trains operated. The huge increase in the price of coal and lubricants has forced that. At least one I know of looked at their average carryings per train and decided that reducing frequency would move passengers on to other services. Was this a good move - perhaps we will know when the figures are collated at the end of the season.

The effect of reducing timetables will very much depend on the type of visitors that the railway mainly attracts. If it’s mainly people who just come to visit the museum and do one out and back whole line trip it may not make much difference to visitor numbers.

I may not be typical, but when I visit a heritage railway, I like to go for the whole day, and get a real feel for the place. I will buy a day rover ticket and will usually do one whole line return trip when I first arrive. After that, I hop on and off trains for the rest of the day exploring the the areas around the intermediate stations. I may go for a series of short walks, explore villages etc and spend money in cafes on the stations or other local tearooms or pubs.

Many heritage lines this year seem to have significantly cut the timetables outside of school holiday times especially for midweek visits. That is just the time when I would choose to go and September would be one of my favourite times to visit. I would rather they cut down on the number of midweek days that they operate but then run a good service on the days they are open. Last week I was in the Manchester area and was going to have a day in the area around the East Lancashire Railway. When I looked at the timetables for the days they were open it was so sparse that I decided not to bother. They probably won’t miss my £22 but if lots of people feel the same as me it could have an impact. There have been a number of heritage railways which I have decided not to visit recently for this reason.

 

[daodao]

At least one big HR I know of has struggled with staff - volunteer numbers have declined; new volunteers being outstripped by those who no longer volunteer for one reason or another. Furthermore many volunteers who still volunteer have cut back their commitment.

I visited the East Lancashire Railway in September 2022 and made a return trip from Heywood to Rawtenstall. I was astonished at the number of staff (presumably both paid and volunteer) hanging around doing not very much. If staff shortages are a major issue, the heritage rail sector needs to adopt some of the staffing practices of the main line railway, e.g. scannable tickets, unstaffed halts, centralised door locking, increased dmu usage for less busy times.

 

[paul1609]

Seriously? I guess you're not aware how frequently the NR connection at Norton Fitzwarren is used by steam locos running to and from the WSR. Lifting the track would be madness.

How many loco movements a year would the reduced size WSR have? If your no longer using a large part of the track for passenger services I wouldn't mind betting the maintenance costs considerably outweigh the cost of the occasional low loader movement.

 

[Cymroglan]

Many heritage lines this year seem to have significantly cut the timetables outside of school holiday times especially for midweek visits. That is just the time when I would choose to go and September would be one of my favourite times to visit. I would rather they cut down on the number of midweek days that they operate but then run a good service on the days they are open. Last week I was in the Manchester area and was going to have a day in the area around the East Lancashire Railway. When I looked at the timetables for the days they were open it was so sparse that I decided not to bother. They probably won’t miss my £22 but if lots of people feel the same as me it could have an impact. There have been a number of heritage railways which I have decided not to visit recently for this reason.

Partial Quote!
I must say on the rare occasion that I get a day to myself I tend to do more or less exactly as you describe. It’s a really nice way of clearing my head and enjoying a nice area. I have not used a heritage railway for this purpose at all this year, whereas in previous years such days were spent exclusively on Swanage etc.
Instead I did one day on the national network (between Arundel, Littlehampton & Bognor). My other free day was spent on the buses (Dorchester, Bridport, Lyme Regis). Enjoyed both trips enormously and will happily repeat. As you say, heritage lines won’t miss one man’s fare and additional spend, so all good.

 

[12LDA28C]

How many loco movements a year would the reduced size WSR have? If your no longer using a large part of the track for passenger services I wouldn't mind betting the maintenance costs considerably outweigh the cost of the occasional low loader movement.

You're missing the point. The WSR regularly hosts other operators' steam locos for use on charter trains, for example from Taunton or Norton Fitzwarren to Kingswear, especially in the summer, as well as occasional charter trains running from the national network onto the WSR.

 

[paul1609]

You're missing the point. The WSR regularly hosts other operators' steam locos for use on charter trains, for example from Taunton or Norton Fitzwarren to Kingswear, especially in the summer, as well as occasional charter trains running from the national network onto the WSR.

I'm not missing the point. How much does the WSR earn from charter trains compared with the cost of maintaining 10 miles of track and stations? I'm not suggesting that the WSR reduce it's length only that if it needs to do so for financial reasons the Minehead end is likely far more profitable than the Taunton end.

 

[Brush 4]

This is where they need to embrace the outside world and not hide from it. Either the WSR provides a daily public service to Taunton and beyond or, a TOC does it. Retreating, which is what ever more lines are doing can only lead to eventual extinction. I suppose it could be called authentic, repeating BR's rationalisation. Reduce and reduce until there is just a skeleton line, before total closure. Other connected lines need to do this to save their skin. The service would be subsidised the same as the rest of the network is, no reason why should be treated any differently.

 

[option]

The ORR (IIRC rather than HMRI) has become increasingly concerned about the quality of track maintenance on heritage railways. It has had discussions with a number of railways to be reassured that the track is maintained to the required standard. One of the problems HRs face is that appeals to restore locomotives and carriages have more pull with enthusiasts than track appeals though that is not to say that some track appeals have not been successful. Having said that I very much doubt that any HR would lift track it had literally sweated blood and tears on to lay in the first place.

One HR I know of uses concrete sleepers, CWR, & has visits from tampers. They are also replacing expired wooden sleepers with concrete.
Safe track, with reduced maintenance needs, is more important than how 'heritage correct' it is.