Heritage railways running cost

[Junctionman]

I was reading about coal prices for heritage railways , i think there we be a lot fewer steam locos running on them soon, i had better get some visits in this year

 

[778]

There already has been a big reduction in steam hauled services since covid. I do think heritage railways should be looking at alternatives to coal though, both for environmental reasons and lower operating costs.

 

[Flying Phil]

Whilst coal is an obviously high direct cost, Heritage Railways also have high wage bills in many cases, as well as infrastructure costs with bridges and other expensive life expired items. If you want to see them in the future- support them now.

 

[Titfield]

There already has been a big reduction in steam hauled services since covid. I do think heritage railways should be looking at alternatives to coal though, both for environmental reasons and lower operating costs.

Work is being undertaken into finding and trialling a sort of ecoal. However any change in the thermal output and waste characteristics of a coal substitute could have far reaching consequences for steam locomotives. https://www.hra.uk.com/resources/coal

Whilst coal is a significant % of the operating cost of a heritage railway other costs e.g. staffing, loco and carriage maintenance, pway and civils (bridges, embankments etc) are equally if not more important in the overall equation.

 

[4SubAsociation]

There already has been a big reduction in steam hauled services since covid. I do think heritage railways should be looking at alternatives to coal though, both for environmental reasons and lower operating costs.

At the Battlefield, they have used Spondon Number 1 (battery electric loco) for some jobs including a ballast drop. (Photo by Adrian Lock).

 

[12LDA28C]

I was reading about coal prices for heritage railways , i think there we be a lot fewer steam locos running on them soon, i had better get some visits in this year

Or switch your allegiance to diesel. Plenty of them running regularly in preservation.

 

[Tim M]

Most narrow gauge lines still have predominately steam hauled passenger services, yes even the Ff&WHR where no scheduled diesel services are planned for 2024, and haven’t been for some years. Why? NG locos require considerably less fuel per passenger mile, even Garratt’s when hauling a ten car train with 250 passengers. Yes speeds are a bit slower, but passengers like that to take in the views. This tends to support the reason why NG was developed in the 1860’s: lower costs, lower train weight, decent loads, what’s not to like. BTW I’m not proposing to convert SG lines to narrow, their very being dictates the status quo, even if that means higher costs.

 

[Ken H]

Cant they use gas to reduce coal use? When the loco is on shed or waiting at stations. OK gas is fossil fuel, but it is less particulates.

 

[trebor79]

There already has been a big reduction in steam hauled services since covid. I do think heritage railways should be looking at alternatives to coal though, both for environmental reasons and lower operating costs.

Emissions from heritage sector operations are absolutely miniscule and of no consequence - either in the scheme of total emissions, or in a net zero world. The volumes involved are just too tiny to have any impact whatsoever.
We need to make sure that heritage equipment (both rail, road, marine and stationary) is allowed to continue to operate and not sacrificed at the alter of eco-conciousness.

I say that as someone who has 2 EVs and earns a living in the renewable sector, I'm not a denialist - I'm a realist.

 

[Mike Machin]

Emissions from heritage sector operations are absolutely miniscule and of no consequence - either in the scheme of total emissions, or in a net zero world. The volumes involved are just too tiny to have any impact whatsoever.
We need to make sure that heritage equipment (both rail, road, marine and stationary) is allowed to continue to operate and not sacrificed at the alter of eco-conciousness.

I say that as someone who has 2 EVs and earns a living in the renewable sector, I'm not a denialist - I'm a realist.

That's absolutely true and even many environmentalists would agree with this statement. In fact, during the last EU elections in the UK I decided I wanted to vote for the Green Party, but before I was willing to commit I contacted my regional candidate to ask for her thoughts on the use of coal-powered steam locomotives on heritage railways.

The candidate actually phoned me back and told m that here little boy absolutely loved steam trains and they frequently visited the Bluebell Railway. She also said that as far as she and her party colleagues were concerned, the amount of pollution and CO2 emissions from the heritage sector burning coal were so infinitesimally small that it more or less makes no difference. The real elephant in the room going forward is going to be the almost complete unavailability of coal, with whatever is available being unbelievably expensive.

 

[railfan99]

The real elephant in the room going forward is going to be the almost complete unavailability of coal, with whatever is available being unbelievably expensive.

While it may have a different calorific value to that needed by steam locomotives, are you aware how many coal-fired power stations nations like #1 and #2 in population, India and communist mainland China, are operating or still building?

I have shares in two Australian coal companies that sell a mix of metallurgical (steel making) and thermal (electricity generation) coal. Spot prices per tonne have dropped from the high levels of a year or two ago, but most is sold via contracts, typically to nations including Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and (lesser extent but growing) Philippines and Vietnam. There's no shortage of purchasers. About 18 months ago one Australian listed coal company sold nine per cent of its output that financial year to Europe. Unusual but some European nations needed it pronto.

Of course, the huge distance from my nation to the UK means it'll generally be more economic to source coal from closer. There are quite a few nations with operating mines that can supply. My casual understanding is your coal merchants 'blend' coal from various sources that's then used by heritage railways and main line operators like Steam Dreams and (when not subject to CDL-fitting obligations) West Coast Rail.

 

[mike57]

As others have said, the contribution of the heritage sector to pollution and emissions is insignificant, so why waste time and energy on eco coal or other alternative fuels. Coal cost will be an issue, what is also an issue is if coal has to be brought half way round the world. How much coal does the UK heritage sector use per year, not just railways, but other heritage activities as well.

The most logical solution would be a small scale UK mining operation to provide the coal. I am not sure if the quantities would be commercially viable. Would there be any local export potential to nearby countries?

Have heritage railways seen above inflation rises in other costs, staffing, infrastucture etc. Thinking about the thread on HS2 where costs have risen by a factor of 2 whilst inflation over the same period is around 35%, has this filtered through into the heritage sector?

 

[paul1609]

Have heritage railways seen above inflation rises in other costs, staffing, infrastucture etc. Thinking about the thread on HS2 where costs have risen by a factor of 2 whilst inflation over the same period is around 35%, has this filtered through into the heritage sector?

The answer is Yes. I'd be very surprised if the costs of the mainline railway haven't risen similarly. Most secondary lines on national rail must now be absolute basket cases financially.

 

[Titfield]

That's absolutely true and even many environmentalists would agree with this statement. In fact, during the last EU elections in the UK I decided I wanted to vote for the Green Party, but before I was willing to commit I contacted my regional candidate to ask for her thoughts on the use of coal-powered steam locomotives on heritage railways.

The candidate actually phoned me back and told m that here little boy absolutely loved steam trains and they frequently visited the Bluebell Railway. She also said that as far as she and her party colleagues were concerned, the amount of pollution and CO2 emissions from the heritage sector burning coal were so infinitesimally small that it more or less makes no difference. The real elephant in the room going forward is going to be the almost complete unavailability of coal, with whatever is available being unbelievably expensive.

The view of the politicians on coal used for heritage purposes can be found at https://stickssn.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/APPGHR-Coal-Report.pdf

This is the All Party Parliamentary Group on Heritage Rail Report on coal "Steaming Ahead".

In brief it contains what @Mike Machin has stated above.

 

[Lost property]

I would suggest, rising costs aside, coal is likely to be the least of heritage lines concerns.

Diesels, on the other hand, much, no doubt to the anguish of those who get their pants wetting jollies from "clag" and "thrash" are far more likely to attract the ire of environmentalists.

I am quite happy to reiterate, that, cold, hard nosed, commercial reality including cost / benefit analysis is going to become essential for lines to survive. That, and some indifferent, concerned only with their own personal kudos Boards, allied to spotters in their "dream job" need to be consigned to history otherwise, the lines close.

What is required are qualified / experienced professionals, not pure "bean counters " for whom I have no love due to the damage they cause, who can analyse a business, the marketing, and the product overall, identify the strengths and weaknesses, and build on the former.

Not forgetting the heritage sector faces increased competition from other leisure outlets, also seeking revenue from the diminished personal / disposable incomes of families in particular. This demographic should be the target market with enthusiasts on the periphery.

And, as has been mentioned before, how many lines have, in effect, scrap which is never going to run again just sitting there occupying space / infrastructure.

Let me put it this way. Wallowing in some whimsical nostalgia for an era that never really existed isn't going to generate revenue....and revenue is the lifeblood of any successful commercial operation

 

[Meerkat]

What is required are qualified / experienced professionals, not pure "bean counters " for whom I have no love due to the damage they cause, who can analyse a business, the marketing, and the product overall, identify the strengths and weaknesses, and build on the former.

So you do you want bean counters or not? You say you don't then give a job description for a bean counter.......
Whilst heritage steam might be irrelevant in global environmental terms the lines with neighbours might have issues, particularly if you get to the stage of "if I can't have a wood burner, nor even a gas boiler, why are that lot allowed to send dirty smoke drifting across our street?"

The big question is what is the Unique Selling Point - is it steam or is it the fire? Fill the tender with batteries and stick a big element in the boiler..........

 

[MarkyT]

Whilst heritage steam might be irrelevant in global environmental terms the lines with neighbours might have issues, particularly if you get to the stage of "if I can't have a wood burner, nor even a gas boiler, why are that lot allowed to send dirty smoke drifting across our street?"

The local nuisance angle rather than the global carbon contribution.

The big question is what is the Unique Selling Point - is it steam or is it the fire? Fill the tender with batteries and stick a big element in the boiler..........

I think it's the appearance and sound of the locomotive that attracts. Some people seeing clouds of steam say it is smoke, so as long as we still produce copious amounts of that I think most visitors (who are not enthusiasts) will be satisfied. There is a clique of enthusiasts who crave black smoke, but prolonged dark emissions are usually a sign of poor combustion that railways should want to avoid as much as possible because it is inefficient, and the effects of the soot released on both the heritage assets and visitor clothing. New fuels are essential in my opinion not just for the bigger environmental benefits but primarily because good coal will undoubtedly become more difficult and expensive to obtain. Cleaner fuels have other benefits, reducing or eliminating ash and associated cleaning, possibly cutting prep time, etc. I wouldn't go as far as mobile electric kettles though!

 

[Lost property]

So you do you want bean counters or not? You say you don't then give a job description for a bean counter.......
Whilst heritage steam might be irrelevant in global environmental terms the lines with neighbours might have issues, particularly if you get to the stage of "if I can't have a wood burner, nor even a gas boiler, why are that lot allowed to send dirty smoke drifting across our street?"

The big question is what is the Unique Selling Point - is it steam or is it the fire? Fill the tender with batteries and stick a big element in the boiler..........

No I didn't. The last people you want are dedicated bean counters as they tend to be very insular and incapable of broader perspectives.

What I was trying to say, for your benefit, was, you need competent professional management. Somebody who understands, and can read, a balance sheet and also basic accounting principles. The basics are quite straightforward and qualifications to reflect the theory should be mandatory for anybody involved in Commercial operations. Likewise budgets.

Extending the management criteria further, along with prior experience, and this doesn't have to be rail related, the ability to communicate (all forms ) and delegate would, as the job specs say " be a distinct advantage " .

The Unique Selling Point, as you term it is surely the line, and location, itself. Remember, the bread and butter of any operation are, or should be, the general public, who really aren't too bothered if the traction is steam or diesel just as long as they feel they've had a nice day out and value for money.

 

[trebor79]

The Unique Selling Point, as you term it is surely the line, and location, itself. Remember, the bread and butter of any operation are, or should be, the general public, who really aren't too bothered if the traction is steam or diesel just as long as they feel they've had a nice day out and value for money.

I'm not sure. I think people want something authentic, and a steam loco with a big immersion heater is not authentic (nor is it technically or economically feasible).
Having said that, I remember from my own volunteering days that some folk would stand and look at the loco for a bit and then say "Where's the engine then?" and think we were fibbing when we told them they were looking at it, even going so far as to say the fire "Is just for show" etc. Some were surprisingly difficult to convince!

 

[Titfield]

I'm not sure. I think people want something authentic, and a steam loco with a big immersion heater is not authentic (nor is it technically or economically feasible).
Having said that, I remember from my own volunteering days that some folk would stand and look at the loco for a bit and then say "Where's the engine then?" and think we were fibbing when we told them they were looking at it, even going so far as to say the fire "Is just for show" etc. Some were surprisingly difficult to convince!

Putting them on the footplate and experiencing the heat off the firebox would be sufficient to convince most people.

 

[HSTEd]

Would it be possible to convert heritage steam locomotives to oil firing?
It will avoid the need to maintain an expensive supply chain of very small quantities of solid fuel for the railway.

There is always wood firing....

I'm not sure. I think people want something authentic, and a steam loco with a big immersion heater is not authentic (nor is it technically or economically feasible).

It's not economically attractive, but it is certainly technically feasible.

 

[trebor79]

Putting them on the footplate and experiencing the heat off the firebox would be sufficient to convince most people.

Indeed. Some still refused to believe. I remember we once gave a guy a footplate ride so he could see exactly what goes on, the shovel glowing red after a bit of firing etc. He stopped saying it was all for show, but just walked off silently with a slight look of awe/disbelief on his face !

 

[Meerkat]

No I didn't. The last people you want are dedicated bean counters as they tend to be very insular and incapable of broader perspectives.

And then you go on to describe bean counters again! "Broader perspectives" usually means "assigning a greater value to a particular output, more in line with your own". Not sure what that could be on a Heritage Railway that has to earn its money, and not assign a cash value to societal benefits.

I'm not sure. I think people want something authentic, and a steam loco with a big immersion heater is not authentic (nor is it technically or economically feasible).

Depends which 'people' are paying the bills. If its lots of donations/memberships from enthusiasts then maybe, but if its families and 'normals' wanting a day out would they be that bothered about what is heating the water as long as it chuffs and kicks out lots of steam?
Out of interest why isnt a big immersion heater technically possible? I was thinking multiple elements rather than an upscaled kettle job....

 

[Lost property]

And then you go on to describe bean counters again! "Broader perspectives" usually means "assigning a greater value to a particular output, more in line with your own". Not sure what that could be on a Heritage Railway that has to earn its money, and not assign a cash value to societal benefits.

Depends which 'people' are paying the bills. If its lots of donations/memberships from enthusiasts then maybe, but if its families and 'normals' wanting a day out would they be that bothered about what is heating the water as long as it chuffs and kicks out lots of steam?
Out of interest why isnt a big immersion heater technically possible? I was thinking multiple elements rather than an upscaled kettle job....

Again, had you actually read my post, you would have ascertained I was proposing what, in effect, would be the job spec for..a manager.

To quantify this, for your benefit, I mean an individual in a managerial position who is multi purpose capable, somebody who can utilise say marketing, accountancy, statistics and sustainability ....within their overall managerial remit.

A dedicated and pure bean counter, which I am distinctly averse to, won't have this range of capabilities.

I might also add, that, even with professional managerial competency in place, the major obstacle facing many long established lines would be the one of....internal culture. Rubbish / incompetent management can be replaced. Countering long established cultures takes time and effort with the resistance that can, and would, be encountered.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

To return to the original point of this thread, I think it's a mistake to regard heritage or preserved railways as a monolithic block. Some are large busineses, albeit with a supporting volunteer base, others are essentialy hobby railways with a mile or two of track and a handful of employees.

There nothing right or wrong about either model but their decisions about fuel could be different.

The Ffr/WHR, for instance, has converted some engines from coal to oil and then back again because the attraction relies on slow steam trains in a stunning landscape. The power source is neither here nor there to most potential customers.

The Pontypool and Blaenavon railway, as an example, is largely volunteer led and is trying to explain the relationship between railways and the iron and coal industries in a UNESCO world heritage site. That means the choices around fuel are part of telling the story.

I suspect the choices facing every line and every group are different and that there isn't a right or a wrong answer.

Realistically though, with Ffos y Fran open-cast gone, the chances of obtaining steam coal from the UK is close to zero.

 

[Dent]

It's not economically attractive, but it is certainly technically feasible.

The engine in that picture is powered by overhead lines, not batteries in the tender as was suggested, so does not prove that what was suggested is technically feasible.

The main technical issue would be energy density - even the best batteries available have nowhere near the energy density of coal.

 

[HSTEd]

The engine in that picture is powered by overhead lines, not batteries in the tender as was suggested, so does not prove that what was suggested is technically feasible.

The main technical issue would be energy density - even the best batteries available have nowhere near the energy density of coal.

Sorry, I lost that in the chain of comments.

However, for most heritage rail operations, the 20 minutes of fireless locomotive time that the historical swiss locomotives achieved would be significant.
Certainly given the short length of most heritage lines you would seriously cut fuel consumption!

 

[nferguso]

To return to the original point of this thread, I think it's a mistake to regard heritage or preserved railways as a monolithic block. Some are large busineses, albeit with a supporting volunteer base, others are essentialy hobby railways with a mile or two of track and a handful of employees.

You are correct in your observation. From this leads two opposing threads: the cost base and the ability to generate revenue. These might seem obvious but consideration has to be given to how these work for heritage railways.

From personal experience, the point at which a railway needs paid staff is quite low. Once services become timetabled, using a range of vehicles and, with them, collateral equipment and external commitments, then there comes a point where a minimum staffing level is required. These roles tend to cover operational maintenance, compliance and general administration. Catering brings-in a significant level of staffing in itself: if you want to sell dining experiences, then you need somebody who can cook and cook very well: you need serving staff and then those who have the unglamorous task of cleaning-up. Want to sell more? You need to have somebody answer the phones and deal with queries. Oh, and don’t forget you need somebody with imagination so you don’t just keep repeating the same, tired, formula.

Pretty soon, you have a staffing level heading towards double figures. Now, some of you might cry ‘Nonsense!’, because it can all be done by volunteers. Maybe, but you’d probably be wrong unless you were extremely fortunate and I’m not convinced that it would be for the best because volunteers in critical roles expose the organisation to risk if they cannot be available readily and often at unsociable times.

In turn, there is the differentiation between a small museum line (I think that’s a fairer description than ‘hobby’) and a full commercial undertaking. This is an example of how length matters (sorry): you can’t have a ten-mile long line and run it as a museum: the upkeep costs alone mandate an appreciable level of revenue and so you place yourself on a treadmill of something called business.

How you manage those costs is up to you. The cost of fuel is a significant factor, but it is not the only factor. Ditto fuel oil, ditto anything that produces energy of sufficient density to provide motive power. Sometimes, you have to think sideways: do you need an expensive locomotive (any form of traction: steam, diesel, electricity or fairy dust) to haul permanent way trains or would an RRV suffice? Regarding the price of coal, diesel is hardly cheap but steam sells: the general public is attracted to steam in a way that diesel tends not: yes, diesel has its attractions but put steam on and you tend to be up at another level of interest and thus attracting a broader market.

To conclude, if you find yourself running a heritage railway, then you find yourself balancing costs and revenues on a continuing basis. As one commodity goes up in price, another falls: one attraction exceeds expectations, another falls flat.

Heritage railways must be inherently adaptive to market conditions but then so must every other industry. In turn, within the heritage railway industry, there will be winners and losers, giants and tiddlers, the Next Big Thing and the Has-been. There is one benefit however, heritage railways are in the leisure sector: one that is growing and has the advantage of being adaptable.

 

[bleeder4]

On my last visit to the GWSR, I alighted the train at Broadway and was most amused to see one of the crew chucking a bucket of pine cone needles into the locomotive fire. The trees around the station provided an ample supply, so if they're viable as a combustible fuel all the better. As others have said, there are some ingenious solutions out there that heritage railways are trying.

 

[eldomtom2]

As others have said, the contribution of the heritage sector to pollution and emissions is insignificant, so why waste time and energy on eco coal or other alternative fuels. Coal cost will be an issue, what is also an issue is if coal has to be brought half way round the world. How much coal does the UK heritage sector use per year, not just railways, but other heritage activities as well.

The most logical solution would be a small scale UK mining operation to provide the coal. I am not sure if the quantities would be commercially viable. Would there be any local export potential to nearby countries?

I doubt mining coal in the UK will be a more affordable option than using ecoals or other alternative fuels.

In turn, there is the differentiation between a small museum line (I think that’s a fairer description than ‘hobby’) and a full commercial undertaking. This is an example of how length matters (sorry): you can’t have a ten-mile long line and run it as a museum: the upkeep costs alone mandate an appreciable level of revenue and so you place yourself on a treadmill of something called business.

I don't see why you're presenting museum and "business" as opposites - there are museums with more paid staff than most (all?) heritage railways...