Heritage railways running cost

[trebor79]

Oil has been used in the past in the UK and wood burning was common in some other countries. Would a typical heritage (for the sake of discussion consider something small like an 0-6-0T and a larger loco like a 4-6-0 5MT) steam loco be able to operate on wood as fuel with minor modifications? Would you be able to maintain sufficent boiler pressure in use? What about sparks and ash, wood ash is much finer and flies around. Wood is readily available and is renewable. Bear in mind we are doing 25mph and at most 20 odd miles, and in a lot of cases less.

For wood you'd need a different grate (smaller gaps between the bars) and probably some change the draughting arrangements. As you say wood produces less ash and the ash it does make is finer, so that layer of ash protecting the firebars won't be there, and the fire will be more easily lifted. But as you say - there have been load of wood fired locos so it's easily doable. Any performance loss will, as you say, be more than mitigated by the fact that most heritage locos are hardly taxed by the duties they perform. The biggest issue would be for tank locos, getting sufficient wood on board for a trip - its less dense than coal and less energy per unit mass too, so you needs lots and lots of wood compared to coal!

 

[MarkyT]

Well, then you're talking about a fireless locomotive really with some sort of immersion heater backup. I can't see that being practical for much the same reasons as I gave above - cost and practicality. The recharge station for a fireless loco it going to be a stationary boiler which can dump a charge of pressurise hot water into the boiler, as any immersion heater capable of doing that it going to be multi-megawatt output.

I did mention fireless upthread. If you read what I wrote before, I was proposing doing all the heating electrically in the boiler with electric power mostly being provided while stationary at a 'fast charging station' like the Greenford battery electric one, capable of supplying very high currents for a relatively short time. Clearly, like that installation, it would require a battery of its own to be able to connect to a moderate grid supply, while being able to intermittently supply high currents every so often.

 

[mike57]

For wood you'd need a different grate (smaller gaps between the bars) and probably some change the draughting arrangements. As you say wood produces less ash and the ash it does make is finer, so that layer of ash protecting the firebars won't be there, and the fire will be more easily lifted. But as you say - there have been load of wood fired locos so it's easily doable. Any performance loss will, as you say, be more than mitigated by the fact that most heritage locos are hardly taxed by the duties they perform. The biggest issue would be for tank locos, getting sufficient wood on board for a trip - its less dense than coal and less energy per unit mass too, so you needs lots and lots of wood compared to coal!

It can also be locally sourced and doesn't require a lot of energy to process assuming you season and dry naturally which is how we prepare our firewood for home use, so no 'hidden' emissions.

 

[MarkyT]

For wood you'd need a different grate (smaller gaps between the bars) and probably some change the draughting arrangements. As you say wood produces less ash and the ash it does make is finer, so that layer of ash protecting the firebars won't be there, and the fire will be more easily lifted. But as you say - there have been load of wood fired locos so it's easily doable. Any performance loss will, as you say, be more than mitigated by the fact that most heritage locos are hardly taxed by the duties they perform. The biggest issue would be for tank locos, getting sufficient wood on board for a trip - its less dense than coal and less energy per unit mass too, so you needs lots and lots of wood compared to coal!

Some trials took place on a German heritage line using wood-based pellets. A small industrial 0-6-0 steam loco was heavily instrumented by a specialist consultancy engaged through a government research grant and working with the heritage railway engineers, they made some temporary modifications to the loco to suit the new fuel. They found it practical at least for smaller locos on short-distance service with grate and draughting changes to an otherwise traditional machine, which could reach its full output subject to constant firing, albeit with lighter shovel-loads that were sucked into the fire by the increased overdraught through the firehole, a neccessary modification for burning wood. German experience with lower energy lignite was useful in devising solutions for the project, as that also required grate and drafting changes. Important issues were that the fuel was more bulky for a given energy value so refilling the bunker was neccessary throughout the day at both ends of the runs, and that it had to be kept dry. The fuel combusted well and left very little ash meaning reduced cleaning. A finer spark arrestor grille than used with coal was fitted. The team concluded that for large locos on longer runs such as mainline excursions, pellets are not a practical fuel currently subject to further development of mechanical feed arrangements and changes to bunkers/tenders to keep the fuel as dry as possible, another thing German railways are familiar with from historic use of coal dust as fuel. The pellet fuel is widely used in industry so can be obtained readily. It is made from waste products from timber industries.

Here's a video showing the trials on the Powered by Steam channel:

Edited to better describe the trials featured in the video.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone would like to make any suggestions/proposals/ideas, we would welcome these in the Speculative Discussion section please

Electrically heated steam proposal discussion has been moved to:

Could electrically-heated steam locos be a solution for preserved railways?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heritage-railways-running-cost.262609/#post-6641106 I wouldn't go as far as mobile electric kettles though! In all fairness, Switzerland had electrically-heated steam locos! I'm sure there's some way of doing that if this...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[nferguso]

I doubt mining coal in the UK will be a more affordable option than using ecoals or other alternative fuels.

I don't see why you're presenting museum and "business" as opposites - there are museums with more paid staff than most (all?) heritage railways...

You are misinterpreting my point. I was using the term 'museum' line in preference to the term that had been used, namely 'hobby' line.

 

[eldomtom2]

You are misinterpreting my point. I was using the term 'museum' line in preference to the term that had been used, namely 'hobby' line.

Either way it still doesn't work.

 

[nferguso]

Either way it still doesn't work.

In what respect?

 

[trebor79]

Actually mining coal might happen. Only small amounts are required and I believe mining museums where you go underground like Big Pit are still registered as active mines. In theory at least they could dig some coal out on non visitor days.
It would be expensive. But there again perhaps people might volunteer to work down a mine and keep the costs down. It's not terrifically different to hacking coal out of the corners of a bunker

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Something I have mulled over and corresponded with various people is tip clearance , especially in South Wales.

Many of the 19thC spoil heaps will have maybe 20% coal content - miners were only paid for "large coal" - so anything smaller than say a potato would end up being jettisoned and tipped. Clearance in the 1970s and 1980's would see tips "riddled" and coal removed and sold on. Tips of course would often be picked by the locals at various times - even in the 1984 coal strike to keep the home fires burning or for sale for a few quid.

South Wales as we know produced excellent steam coal -Lewis Merthyr in the Rhondda had no problem supplying the iconic Titanic (shame she never got there) and was first on the list for the Royal Navy in those days. Should a programe of clearing some of the more dangerous , listed tips (Wales seems to think England should pay) - then there could be a win here. Likewise - permission to "pick" the Ffos-y-Fran site would yield a few tons of excellent coal - but of course H&S would stop that dead.

I love the comment on a bucket or 2 of fir cons - when in Poland on one of the narrow gauge lines (we hired a train) - a bit low on coal and having swept the 0-8-0 tender out - we foraged a bit of windfall logs and slung that in the firebox - did the job nicely.

 

[eldomtom2]

In what respect?

Because, as I said, the idea of "museums" as opposed to "businesses" is a fundamentally false dichotomy.

 

[nferguso]

Because, as I said, the idea of "museums" as opposed to "businesses" is a fundamentally false dichotomy.

You are missing the point entirely. I said, and I quote:

"... there is the differentiation between a small museum line (I think that’s a fairer description than ‘hobby’) and a full commercial undertaking. This is an example of how length matters (sorry): you can’t have a ten-mile long line and run it as a museum: the upkeep costs alone mandate an appreciable level of revenue and so you place yourself on a treadmill of something called business."
This in turn was referring to this comment by Tomos y Tanc:
"...others are essentially hobby railways with a mile or two of track and a handful of employees."

The point I am making is that you are playing in a very different league if you are managing several miles of railway. Everything is commercial and you might want to discuss the substance of my comment rather than picking details.

 

[eldomtom2]

You are missing the point entirely. I said, and I quote:

"... there is the differentiation between a small museum line (I think that’s a fairer description than ‘hobby’) and a full commercial undertaking. This is an example of how length matters (sorry): you can’t have a ten-mile long line and run it as a museum: the upkeep costs alone mandate an appreciable level of revenue and so you place yourself on a treadmill of something called business."
This in turn was referring to this comment by Tomos y Tanc:
"...others are essentially hobby railways with a mile or two of track and a handful of employees."

The point I am making is that you are playing in a very different league if you are managing several miles of railway. Everything is commercial and you might want to discuss the substance of my comment rather than picking details.

Again, phrases like "you can’t have a ten-mile long line and run it as a museum" are creating a false dichotomy.

 

[nferguso]

Again, phrases like "you can’t have a ten-mile long line and run it as a museum" are creating a false dichotomy.

You're getting a bit too clever for your own good. Stop nit-picking and try to open up the conversation.

 

[eldomtom2]

You're getting a bit too clever for your own good. Stop nit-picking and try to open up the conversation.

I don't see what I've done to deserve such a hostile response.