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Heritage Railways running services aimed at 'regular' passengers?

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A0wen

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Posts #1 - #3 originally in this thread
You could create a platform at Castleton close to the junction on the eastbound side that is entirely away from the main line, connected by a walkway to Castleton station. This could be operated by a heritage unit (DMU or pacer). An hourly service (half hourly at peak times) would suffice.

I don't believe any heritage railway is geared up to operating a regular service - it would mean employing staff, meeting the relevant DDA requirements etc to a far higher standard than they do as a Heritage line.

The only way regular services can be provided is by the genuine TOCs - and I restate, I can't see how Heywood can realistically or viably (a DMU shuttle won't be viable) be served in the existing infrastructure without causing disruption to other, more important flows.

Conscious we're wandering off topic so if the mods wish to separate this and other posts into a new thread, that's fine with me.
 
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Colin Morgan

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I don't believe any heritage railway is geared up to operating a regular service - it would mean employing staff, meeting the relevant DDA requirements etc to a far higher standard than they do as a Heritage line.

The only way regular services can be provided is by the genuine TOCs - and I restate, I can't see how Heywood can realistically or viably (a DMU shuttle won't be viable) be served in the existing infrastructure without causing disruption to other, more important flows.

Conscious we're wandering off topic so if the mods wish to separate this and other posts into a new thread, that's fine with me.
Swanage Railway is planning to run a regular service, though not a year round service. It has 4 dmu coaches, I diesel, I steam engine fully registered to run on the main line and five Mk1 carriages almost ready to carry passengers on the main line. It is well advanced in the process of becoming a TOC. that would have been achieved with a Dmu running an initial service to Wareham in 2020 had Covid and lockdown not intervened. ORR have been slowly making greater demands on heritage railways in recent years in all aspects of operation and Swanage Railway has decided to operate as one railway and to adopt the requirements of a TOC in all of its operations. There is still some uncertainty about how much can be achieved in 2020 but there is every expectation that a significant service will operate to Wareham during the tourism season in 2021.
 

Titfield

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Swanage Railway is planning to run a regular service, though not a year round service. It has 4 dmu coaches, I diesel, I steam engine fully registered to run on the main line and five Mk1 carriages almost ready to carry passengers on the main line. It is well advanced in the process of becoming a TOC. that would have been achieved with a Dmu running an initial service to Wareham in 2020 had Covid and lockdown not intervened. ORR have been slowly making greater demands on heritage railways in recent years in all aspects of operation and Swanage Railway has decided to operate as one railway and to adopt the requirements of a TOC in all of its operations. There is still some uncertainty about how much can be achieved in 2020 but there is every expectation that a significant service will operate to Wareham during the tourism season in 2021.

Hmm:
1) For the regular traveller (as opposed to heritage / tourist traveller) a year round service is obviously desirable if not essential.
2) For the commuter self evidently services have to operate at convenient "commuting " times not the 10:00 - 17:00 typical of heritage railways. Services should operate at the same times each day and not vary as much as some HRs do. Many HRs simply do not offer the frequency.
3) For commuters / regular travellers fares must be at national network levels not the higher per mile fares charged by heritage railways.
4) Commuters / regular travellers would expect through ticketing at through ticket fare levels. Dont see how HRs can do that without compromising their yield / take. Combined with point 3 above thats a double whammy.
5) Regular Travellers would expect the fare structure e.g. age at which child fares apply to be the same. Some HRs have very different fare structures with child fares at different ages and a different ratio between single and return fares. Swanage Railway return fares for example are day return fares and not period return fares.
6) Regular travellers would expect network railcards to be valid on all services. AFAIK Heritage Railways dont accept network railcards.
7) Regular travellers would expect real time information both at stations and onboard. Heritage Railways do not provide that afaik.
8) Regular travellers would expect delay repay. Can Heritage Railways manage that?
9) Regular travellers would expect on board wi fi. How many HRs provide that?
10) Regular travellers would expect on board toilets which work. AFAIK e.g. Swanage Railways DMUs and Mk1 coaches are not tanked thus the toilets would have to be locked off when on network rail metals. Should HRs be discharging effluent onto the track ( irrespective of ownership) in any case?
11) Regular travellers may require assistance e.g. disabled passengers. Can HRs provide that? On SR afaik wheelchair passengers have to travel in the guards compartment which is not exactly a great experience.
12) Regular travellers may question the environmental benefits of using public transport if it means travelling in a 1960s DMU powered by 4 quite frankly dirty Leyland 680 or equivalent engines.
13) Can heritage railways train volunteer staff (and indeed will heritage railway volunteer staff be willing to be trained) to meet the demands of regular travellers. By and large (and I accept this is a generalisation) heritage rail passengers having a day out are far more tolerant than regular travellers who can get very demanding very quickly if there is a delay.
14) If HRs employ staff will these staff expect to be paid at National Rail pay rates?(I very much doubt that HRs have the volunteer resources to run a year round service).
15) Can a heritage railway cope with mainline TOCS seeking every excuse to pass delay attribution to the HR?
16) How will HRs do their engineering / track maintenance work when they are used to the traditional HR winter shutdown?
17) Given the issues with Llangollen as an example, are HRs capable of undertaking such a demanding task given the resources they have currently?
18) Will HRs be able to cope with significant numbers of complaints if they have a really bad day? Bear in mind that as part of being a TOC HRs have to sign up to the Rail Ombudsman scheme which can cost significant sums if complaints are escalated?

Further to the above:
1) the PLI (Public Liability Insurance) Cover level on Network Rail is much higher. This would translate into much higher premiums.
Thinking of Swanage in particular:
2) The core business is between Norden and Swanage. Adding in Wareham services which may have limited demand could cause issues of prioritisation. If you had to delay one train: a) train to Wareham with say 30 Wareham passengers or b) train between Corfe Castle and Swanage with 120 passengers. The problem could be that it would be more costly in financial terms to delay the Wareham (delay repay and delay attribution) but the alternative is to upset a greater number of passengers.
3) A further complexity would be delay repay. If a train that runs Swanage > Corfe castle > Wareham is delayed. Theoretically only the passengers going to wareham would be entitled to delay repay and not those just going to Corfe Castle. (Try explaining that to disgruntled passengers)

I genuinely think that the risk: reward ratio of operating on the mainline is simply to much risk and too little reward.

It could test an HR to breaking point and given what we have seen with WSR and South Devon it wouldnt take much to push one over the edge, as Llangollen has already demonstrated.

Many HRs believe that given their wide public support and importance to the community they are "too big to fail". Well they used to say that of football teams......
 
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A0wen

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Swanage Railway is planning to run a regular service, though not a year round service. It has 4 dmu coaches, I diesel, I steam engine fully registered to run on the main line and five Mk1 carriages almost ready to carry passengers on the main line. It is well advanced in the process of becoming a TOC. that would have been achieved with a Dmu running an initial service to Wareham in 2020 had Covid and lockdown not intervened. ORR have been slowly making greater demands on heritage railways in recent years in all aspects of operation and Swanage Railway has decided to operate as one railway and to adopt the requirements of a TOC in all of its operations. There is still some uncertainty about how much can be achieved in 2020 but there is every expectation that a significant service will operate to Wareham during the tourism season in 2021.

BIB - they won't be running it in 2021 - it's still at Business Case stage according to most online articles.

It remains to be seen what level of service they actually achieve - my suspicion is people will be disappointed and it'll end up being tourist rather than commuter led.
 

Journeyman

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This stuff has been discussed over and over again for decades, yet it's never actually happened.

There's plenty of reasons for that.
 

Titfield

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When they ran the service in 2017:
It ran for 60 days (TWThSaSu ie Not Monday or Friday)
Tuesday 13th June to Sunday 3rd September
4 Trains Per Day Diesel Hauled.
Dept Swanage 1023 1223 1423 1623
Arr Wareham 1110 1310 1510 1710
Dept Wareham 1115 1315 1515 1715
Arr Swanage 1200 1357 1600 1757
(There were some very slight timing differences in the peak season by 2 or 3 minutes)
£15 Adult Return compared to £12.50 return to Corfe Castle / Norden.
IIRC they carried C13000 passengers and made a loss of £70k caused in part by hiring in mainline carriages and locos.
The first down and the last up carried the vast majority of passengers with virtually no one on the first up and last down and very few on the two middle of the day rotations.
Issues included the lack of car parking space at Wareham (iirc only 70 space car park).
Many passengers changed at Corfe Castle / Norden to get on the steam service.

IMHO the first train down to Swanage arrives too late by C45 - 60 minutes.
Going forward I think fares will be an issue as the Adult Return Swanage <> Corfe Castle / Norden is now £16.
How much would that make the fare to / from Wareham? If its only a little bit more the issue will be a lot more mileage for little extra revenue. If you are getting totally new passengers thats good but if all you are doing is getting passengers who used to travel to / from Norden travelling to / from wareham then thats a lot more cost for little extra revenue. I know some say that DMUs are cheap to run but even so......

I very much doubt that there is any case whatsoever for a commuter service given
a) Wareham is a very small town with little employment opportunity
b) end to end journey times connecting to Poole and Bmth are uncompetitive
c) fares will be uncompetitive unless there is a large subsidy.
d) lack of choice of timings especially coming back to Swanage at the end of the day
e) product offering uncompetitive compared to car. (the bus does what the train can quicker and with a much wider choice of stops)

Likewise I dont think there is much scope for what they call a community service given the foregoing and their experience in 2017.
Locals in Swanage do not go to Wareham as an end destination (very little reason to) and locals in Wareham go to Poole or Bmth for a better shopping experience if they want to.
Many of the customers are National Bus Concessionary Pass Holders and one wonders how many will give up a free bus ride and pay rail fares instead especially if its travelling in a DMU. May be different if it is steam hauled but then we get back to the whole equation of additional revenue versus additional cost.

Even with just a "tourist service" I foresee lots of cost (both direct operating cost and additional overhead) , lots of resources being expended both directly and indirectly, problems with staff resourcing and not enough additional revenue to justify it.
 

DavidSM

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Well as a heritage railway besides the great central is somewhat hampered by the maximum running speed allowed .
Running a service for commuter traffic is somewhat unlikely.
lit would be quicker to use a heritage bus moving at a faster pace.
 

Journeyman

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Well as a heritage railway besides the great central is somewhat hampered by the maximum running speed allowed .
Running a service for commuter traffic is somewhat unlikely.
lit would be quicker to use a heritage bus moving at a faster pace.
Exactly. The 25mph limit is effectively hard-wired into the safety management systems of heritage railways, and running at higher speeds involves a lot more expense, equipment, processes, maintenance etc. It simply isn't worth contemplating for most railways.
 

RT4038

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Hmm:
1) For the regular traveller (as opposed to heritage / tourist traveller) a year round service is obviously desirable if not essential.
2) For the commuter self evidently services have to operate at convenient "commuting " times not the 10:00 - 17:00 typical of heritage railways. Services should operate at the same times each day and not vary as much as some HRs do. Many HRs simply do not offer the frequency.
3) For commuters / regular travellers fares must be at national network levels not the higher per mile fares charged by heritage railways.
4) Commuters / regular travellers would expect through ticketing at through ticket fare levels. Dont see how HRs can do that without compromising their yield / take. Combined with point 3 above thats a double whammy.
5) Regular Travellers would expect the fare structure e.g. age at which child fares apply to be the same. Some HRs have very different fare structures with child fares at different ages and a different ratio between single and return fares. Swanage Railway return fares for example are day return fares and not period return fares.
6) Regular travellers would expect network railcards to be valid on all services. AFAIK Heritage Railways dont accept network railcards.
7) Regular travellers would expect real time information both at stations and onboard. Heritage Railways do not provide that afaik.
8) Regular travellers would expect delay repay. Can Heritage Railways manage that?
9) Regular travellers would expect on board wi fi. How many HRs provide that?
10) Regular travellers would expect on board toilets which work. AFAIK e.g. Swanage Railways DMUs and Mk1 coaches are not tanked thus the toilets would have to be locked off when on network rail metals. Should HRs be discharging effluent onto the track ( irrespective of ownership) in any case?
11) Regular travellers may require assistance e.g. disabled passengers. Can HRs provide that? On SR afaik wheelchair passengers have to travel in the guards compartment which is not exactly a great experience.
12) Regular travellers may question the environmental benefits of using public transport if it means travelling in a 1960s DMU powered by 4 quite frankly dirty Leyland 680 or equivalent engines.
13) Can heritage railways train volunteer staff (and indeed will heritage railway volunteer staff be willing to be trained) to meet the demands of regular travellers. By and large (and I accept this is a generalisation) heritage rail passengers having a day out are far more tolerant than regular travellers who can get very demanding very quickly if there is a delay.
14) If HRs employ staff will these staff expect to be paid at National Rail pay rates?(I very much doubt that HRs have the volunteer resources to run a year round service).
15) Can a heritage railway cope with mainline TOCS seeking every excuse to pass delay attribution to the HR?
16) How will HRs do their engineering / track maintenance work when they are used to the traditional HR winter shutdown?
17) Given the issues with Llangollen as an example, are HRs capable of undertaking such a demanding task given the resources they have currently?
18) Will HRs be able to cope with significant numbers of complaints if they have a really bad day? Bear in mind that as part of being a TOC HRs have to sign up to the Rail Ombudsman scheme which can cost significant sums if complaints are escalated?

Further to the above:
1) the PLI (Public Liability Insurance) Cover level on Network Rail is much higher. This would translate into much higher premiums.
Thinking of Swanage in particular:
2) The core business is between Norden and Swanage. Adding in Wareham services which may have limited demand could cause issues of prioritisation. If you had to delay one train: a) train to Wareham with say 30 Wareham passengers or b) train between Corfe Castle and Swanage with 120 passengers. The problem could be that it would be more costly in financial terms to delay the Wareham (delay repay and delay attribution) but the alternative is to upset a greater number of passengers.
3) A further complexity would be delay repay. If a train that runs Swanage > Corfe castle > Wareham is delayed. Theoretically only the passengers going to wareham would be entitled to delay repay and not those just going to Corfe Castle. (Try explaining that to disgruntled passengers)

I genuinely think that the risk: reward ratio of operating on the mainline is simply to much risk and too little reward.

It could test an HR to breaking point and given what we have seen with WSR and South Devon it wouldnt take much to push one over the edge, as Llangollen has already demonstrated.

Many HRs believe that given their wide public support and importance to the community they are "too big to fail". Well they used to say that of football teams......

This is all laying it on a bit thick. Not sure that some of these regular traveler expectations are reasonable for a 30 minute run. The key is going to be subsidy, as indeed it is on any other secondary railway line in this country. We must remember why the lines shut in the first place, and I don't think the ordinary travel economics has improved on any heritage line since? No heritage railway is going to afford running services for regular travellers at 'subsidised' (i.e. national rail terms and conditions) without receiving a similar subsidy. I am sure £25m (or whatever it takes) a year, plus fare take, for a diesel commuter shuttle service would concentrate the minds of the Swanage railway, and pay for the occasional delay repay claim. Probably require a grant for initial infrastructure (track and rolling stock) improvements as well.

Don't expect regular tickets to be available, without hefty supplement, on steam trains though.

However, an hourly dedicated bus service would only cost £500,000 per year.......
 
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Titfield

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Yes I did lay it on thick. The point I was making is that the cost of compliance and meeting customer expectations is extremely high. The costs will never be recovered from fare box revenue and one has to question whether the subsidy required would provide value for money assuming of course that funding could be made available.I doubt the subsidy would provide value for money. I also fear that it could lead Swanage Railway into a downward spiral from which there would be no recovery.

To operate on the mainline an operator must conform to certain standards and that includes having a Complaint Handling Procedure (including a delay repay scheme) and an Assisted Travel Policy. Swanage Railway can not opt out of them on the grounds of cost or complexity. However some issues for example the crashworthiness of the Class 117 / 121 DMUs may be derogated subject to agreement with the ORR. It may be unpalatable to Swanage Railway to have to do some of these things but to run onto the national network means exactly that.

Swanage Railway received grants for the reinstatement of the line from Norden to the network rail boundary at Motala and the refurbishment of the Class 117 / 121 DMUs. The Poole - Wool resignalling scheme included the junction at Worgret and the branch line signalling interfaces with Network Rail. Token machines were installed at Wareham Station. Perenco (the successor to BP) paid £500K towards the cost of the level crossing at Norden.

There is already an hourly bus service between Swanage Wareham and Poole operating daily throughout the year (except Xmas and Boxing Day).
 

RT4038

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Yes I did lay it on thick. The point I was making is that the cost of compliance and meeting customer expectations is extremely high. The costs will never be recovered from fare box revenue and one has to question whether the subsidy required would provide value for money assuming of course that funding could be made available.I doubt the subsidy would provide value for money. I also fear that it could lead Swanage Railway into a downward spiral from which there would be no recovery.

To operate on the mainline an operator must conform to certain standards and that includes having a Complaint Handling Procedure (including a delay repay scheme) and an Assisted Travel Policy. Swanage Railway can not opt out of them on the grounds of cost or complexity. However some issues for example the crashworthiness of the Class 117 / 121 DMUs may be derogated subject to agreement with the ORR. It may be unpalatable to Swanage Railway to have to do some of these things but to run onto the national network means exactly that.

Swanage Railway received grants for the reinstatement of the line from Norden to the network rail boundary at Motala and the refurbishment of the Class 117 / 121 DMUs. The Poole - Wool resignalling scheme included the junction at Worgret and the branch line signalling interfaces with Network Rail. Token machines were installed at Wareham Station. Perenco (the successor to BP) paid £500K towards the cost of the level crossing at Norden.

There is already an hourly bus service between Swanage Wareham and Poole operating daily throughout the year (except Xmas and Boxing Day).
I am pretty sure it would not be value for money, but does rather call into question other parts of the national network that are in a similar position.

It certainly would place additional burdens on the Heritage railway, and the subsidy would have to reflect the costs associated with that. Of course it is possible that the operations and administration of the regular service could be contracted to an existing TOC, although there are numbers of short branch lines in Europe that are operated by separate small companies as examples. I suspect that, if the Heritage Railway did operate the service themselves, they would want brand new (or good secondhand) trains, rather than using heritage rolling stock, funded as part of the start up costs. 2 single car units, capable of being driver only (with the driver checking tickets) - used singly in the winter and at off peak periods, perhaps coupled together with a conductor during the day in the summer?

However, this operation would change the ethos of the Heritage railway (or at least be a significant distraction) which would require more management attention, but the subsidy could be handy in contributing towards some of the fixed track and station costs also used by the heritage operations.

Quite what the service would achieve over a dedicated bus link is not exactly clear....
 

Titfield

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As regards other parts of the network they are operating already and it is politically very difficult to withdraw an existing service.

Not sure that a new commitment should be taken on.

The subsidy would have to be very considerable and one wonders where this money could be used to better effect?
 

30907

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I would be inclined to wait for the updated feasibility study and see what, if anything, is thought to be workable and fundable.
If an all-day service aimed at commuters is proposed - and I am not sure whether it will be - the Swanage has an advantage over the East Lancs and KWVR (the other lines where such things are sometimes mooted) of having no level crossings and therefore being able to operate One Train Working litside the "heritage day.."
 

Titfield

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I would be inclined to wait for the updated feasibility study and see what, if anything, is thought to be workable and fundable.
If an all-day service aimed at commuters is proposed - and I am not sure whether it will be - the Swanage has an advantage over the East Lancs and KWVR (the other lines where such things are sometimes mooted) of having no level crossings and therefore being able to operate One Train Working litside the "heritage day.."

Yes we can wait for the feasibility study but one has to say why didn't they do this before spending significant sums of grant money refurbishing the Class 117 / 121 DMUs to mainline standard (C£1.4M) , all the works on the section of line between Norden and Worgret, the signalling system and the level crossing at Norden Gates.

The Halcrow study (the original feasibility study) iirc didnt really come up with any significant conclusions based on hard data hence the decision to run a two year trial (one of 60 days and one of 90 days) of which only the 60 day trial has taken place (2017 with hired in rolling stock) to test the market.

From my knowledge of the area:
1) there is insufficient demand for a commuter service (particularly given the lack of competitiveness of the rail product compared with private car but also bus) and would require a very large subsidy indeed.
2) there is sufficient demand for a summer only service between Swanage and Wareham for tourism but demand for the vast majority of passengers could be met by two trains per day as per my posting above (ie first down and last up).
 
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