Heysham Port line new stations/improvement potential

[randyrippley]

Is this by reversing at Preston to get to Blackburn, or going via Manchester and that congested Oxford Road-Salford Crescent bit? I'm very curious how this is going to be quicker than going up the WCML through Lancaster?

Turn off before Preston then run through Blackburn
The point according to others upthread is to bypass Lancaster, which is what this does, using existing track (with the bonus of giving Blackburn a London service)

 

[willgreen]

Turn off before Preston then run through Blackburn
The point according to others upthread is to bypass Lancaster, which is what this does, using existing track (with the bonus of giving Blackburn a London service)

It does however miss the point in that bypassing Lancaster is theoretically intended to speed up services to/from London - not extending them by around two hours.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is this by reversing at Preston to get to Blackburn, or going via Manchester and that congested Oxford Road-Salford Crescent bit? I'm very curious how this is going to be quicker than going up the WCML through Lancaster?

You wouldn't have to reverse, there's a direct link from Farington on the WCML to Lostock Hall on the East Lancs.
As much as I'd appreciate the scenery, it would be hilariously slow as you say.

 

[randyrippley]

It does however miss the point in that bypassing Lancaster is theoretically intended to speed up services to/from London - not extending them by around two hours.

Joking aside now - if the route Preston-Settle-Carlisle were to be electrified / resignalled (and presumably track much upgraded in the process) how much of that two hours would disappear? Settle-Carlisle was originally built as an express route, so presumably with electric power on good track the current speed could be considerably be upgraded?

 

[M&NEJ]

The (Leeds) Settle Carlisle route might be good for 90 mph but my guess is the more serious problem would be the bit through Blackburn and up the Ribble valley.

When the WCML north of Preston was first invented, Joseph Locke wanted to bypass Lancaster in the first place, with a route from Galgate into the Quernmore valley and on up the Lune (with a tunnel under Orton Scar). Today one could build Locke's vision as far as Kirkby Lonsdale then re-open the upper portion of the Ingleton branch from KL to Low Gill.

But seriously, the WCML is congested between Lancaster and Morecambe South Junction (or maybe Carnforth). If the answer to the Morecambe and Heysham services isn't to go for light rail in Lancaster, then isn't a third track the answer (with an extra deck on Lune Viaduct aka Carlisle Bridge)?

Can anyone suggest comparative prices for (a) a main line Lancaster bypass, (b) third track over Carlisle Bridge or (c) light rail system in Lancaster?

 

[HSTEd]

Joking aside now - if the route Preston-Settle-Carlisle were to be electrified / resignalled (and presumably track much upgraded in the process) how much of that two hours would disappear? Settle-Carlisle was originally built as an express route, so presumably with electric power on good track the current speed could be considerably be upgraded?

It was an express route when 90mph was the be all and end all. Plus there is the whole section up the Ribble Valley that is decidedly not engineered for express speeds.

It is unlikely to be competitive with the route through Lancaster without spending an enormous quantity of money.

 

[Meerkat]

The Heysham ideas smell a lot of 'railway is the solution, what is the problem'.
The housing doesn't look very dense, from google views its mainly car owners, the railway doesn't go through the middle, and its a long way round to Lancaster via a Morecambe reversal.
If there is money to be spent then build a bus and active travel only bridge between the White Lund trading estate roundabout and the Marsh industrial estate so buses can avoid the bridges and go into the city centre via the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there is money to be spent then build a bus and active travel only bridge between the White Lund trading estate roundabout and the Marsh industrial estate so buses can avoid the bridges and go into the city centre via the station.

If you were going to build that bridge you would want it to be all vehicles, because you could then ban lorries from accessing the industrial estate via the city centre entirely - it is those lorries that are a key part of why it's quite fumy and unpleasant in parts. My preference however would be to relocate the industrial estate to near one of the M6 junctions (probably the Bay Gateway one) and replace it with housing.

As for the Heysham branch I think if I had a big pot of money and was going to do something for Morecambe and Heysham it'd likely be some sort of tram down the seafront a la Blackpool (perhaps running it down the old route reinstated). The railway doesn't go through particularly useful places.

And as for connecting the ferry specifically, a dedicated coach (with a bike trailer) from Lancaster station would probably be best, primarily because varying the times of that to go with delayed or rescheduled sailings (as happens very often) would be far easier than any train. Put it in the train timetable and include it either in through fares or in the ferry booking.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Heysham ideas smell a lot of 'railway is the solution, what is the problem'.

The problem is surely that Lancaster is particularly badly congested, the buses (although frequent) are very slow, giving a big incentive to drive, and for all sorts of environmental reasons besides congestion, there's a need to get people driving less. For anyone wanting to travel further afield than Lancaster, public transport options from the whole urban area between Morecambe and Heysham are poor: You either have to bus into Lancaster then walk from Lancaster bus station to the rail station, or make your way to Morecambe and get the rather irregular train to Lancaster from there.

Also, Morecambe has for a long time been relatively deprived compared to Lancaster, largely because of the poor transport options - particularly for getting to the University. That also has knock-on effects in Lancaster, making housing and renting pretty expensive there because, basically 10K+ students are trying to cram into Lancaster with relatively few willing to live in Morecambe because that makes commuting to the University so long/difficult. That sounds at first sight not relevant to Heysham - except that if the railway can pick up passengers from Heysham, that helps to give you a critical mass of passengers that makes it sustainable to run a much better service from Morecambe too.

Also, worth pointing out that, although in this thread we've been discussing very expensive infrastructure to provide Morecambe with a more frequent, clockface, service, providing some kind of service to Heysham doesn't require much infrastructure at all: All you basically need are a couple of basic one-platform stations (say as a minimum, one in Westgate, one a bit further South) where all you need to build are one platform, a couple of ticket machines, and a path from the road to the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is surely that Lancaster is particularly badly congested, the buses (although frequent) are very slow, giving a big incentive to drive, and for all sorts of environmental reasons besides congestion, there's a need to get people driving less.

Agreed. However a lot of this is through traffic on the A6 which a western bypass (sadly not possible due to SSSI reasons as noted above) would solve. It's a shame the additional M6 junction at Bailrigg has been put on ice as that would help too (the M6 after all already provides a bypass, but not between north/south of the city itself as the southern junction is too far south).

If we're throwing a lot of money around, I wonder would a road tunnel under the city centre be viable? Not modern thinking, though.

I'd love to see a tram (just as I would in Oxford/Cambridge) and a near car-free city centre but it wouldn't work well without the congestion issue being addressed. It'd never be a cycling city quite like Oxford/Cambridge as it's very hilly, but e-bikes would help if traffic was considerably reduced. There are things that could be done to encourage that, such as staffed, secure "bewaakte Fietsenstalling" style facilities for bike and ebike storage at the station and in the shopping area and Sainsbury's. There's sadly quite a lot of bike theft goes on there, though the pub will probably have helped reduce it at the station as there are now people often by where the racks are.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If you were going to build that bridge you would want it to be all vehicles, because you could then ban lorries from accessing the industrial estate via the city centre entirely - it is those lorries that are a key part of why it's quite fumy and unpleasant in parts. My preference however would be to relocate the industrial estate to near one of the M6 junctions (probably the Bay Gateway one) and replace it with housing.

I agree with you about relocating the Lune industrial estate in Marsh - that's a very awkward location for traffic. But I'm not sure you'd want to build houses (or anything else) there really. That whole area is virtually at sea level and at high risk of flooding. To be honest I think even the new housing that has already been built along St Georges' Quay etc. may turn out to be a mistake for that reason. Best restore the area where the industrial estate is to wildlife/parks/marshland, surely?

 

[Meerkat]

If you were going to build that bridge you would want it to be all vehicles, because you could then ban lorries from accessing the industrial estate via the city centre entirely - it is those lorries that are a key part of why it's quite fumy and unpleasant in parts. My preference however would be to relocate the industrial estate to near one of the M6 junctions (probably the Bay Gateway one) and replace it with housing.

I forgot to mention that I agreed with moving the industrial area. What was there before though - anything likely to need expensive remediation?

The problem is surely that Lancaster is particularly badly congested

Sure, I agree with the problem. But that doesn't mean the solution is rail, even when there is some (very basic) rail infrastructure there.

providing some kind of service to Heysham doesn't require much infrastructure at all: All you basically need are a couple of basic one-platform stations (say as a minimum, one in Westgate, one a bit further South) where all you need to build are one platform, a couple of ticket machines, and a path from the road to the platform.

Is that just spending quite a bit of money (cheap new stations don't seem an option any more) for a very slow, infrequent service? Its more of a bus solution problem

But I'm not sure you'd want to build houses (or anything else) there really.

You can play with the levels a bit and build the houses in a suitable way - gaps and garaging underneath, flood prepped ground floors etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

I forgot to mention that I agreed with moving the industrial area. What was there before though - anything likely to need expensive remediation?

As someone else mentioned the main issue with it is that it floods, but it should in principle be possible to control that by a combination of beefing up flood defences and the provision of balancing systems as tends to very effectively prevent flooding in the new bits of Milton Keynes despite many being quite low lying.

There could also be pollution to resolve.

Is that just spending quite a bit of money (cheap new stations don't seem an option any more) for a very slow, infrequent service? Its more of a bus solution problem

Which takes us back to the old problem that a lot of people just won't use buses. Though I wonder how easy it would be to change that if the bus service was of appropriate quality and speed. You see enough of the classic "Rangie and Jag" parked in Oxford's Park and Ride car parks, for example.

 

[M&NEJ]

My preference however would be to relocate the industrial estate to near one of the M6 junctions (probably the Bay Gateway one) and replace it with housing.

I agree with you about relocating the Lune industrial estate in Marsh

I'm sure there was a plan, maybe hatched by the city council to put the Lune industrial estate at Junction 34 of the M6 - about 20 years ago? - so I wonder what happened to it (was it land called Cottam's Farm?). Instead we got a sports and exercise centre.

 

[Meerkat]

As someone else mentioned the main issue with it is that it floods, but it should in principle be possible to control that by a combination of beefing up flood defences and the provision of balancing systems as tends to very effectively prevent flooding in the new bits of Milton Keynes despite many being quite low lying.

There could also be pollution to resolve.



Which takes us back to the old problem that a lot of people just won't use buses. Though I wonder how easy it would be to change that if the bus service was of appropriate quality and speed. You see enough of the classic "Rangie and Jag" parked in Oxford's Park and Ride car parks, for example.

They will if they are regular, quality, faster than traffic jams, and as cheap as parking.

 

[HSTEd]

They will if they are regular, quality, faster than traffic jams, and as cheap as parking.

It is essentially impossible to achieve this without going full South American Bus Rapid Transit though.
Buses in urban areas will always be slow and unreliable in timekeeping terms, it's inherent in operating on a road system with other vehicles on it.

Even in UK BRT schemes like Manchester's buses regularly go missing or end up so delayed that they stack on top of each other

 

[D6130]

Don't know where you got an hour from - the no. 100 is the main route and just under 30 mins Lancaster to Morecambe bus station. Most of the town centre is closer to the bus station too.

In my experience, the bus can easily take an hour - or more - in the peak....when the Greyhound Bridge and ring road are often completely gridlocked.

On another note, I realised looking at the timetable that trains are timetabled to take 15 minutes from Morecambe to Heysham Port, a distance of 4.3 miles, making the average speed 17.2 mph with no intermediate stops. (Before anyone objects, I've excluded the 3 minutes dwell time at Morecambe - public timetables show 18 minutes). Does that track really have such a low maximum speed?

The lines speed on the Heysham branch is 40 mph....or was when I was driving over it. The extra time is needed for the train to stop soon after leaving Morecambe station for the driver to climb down and operate the junction points from the ground frame and then climb back up into the cab again berfore setting off for Heysham. The same procedure applies on the return journey to Lancaster.

 

[AlastairFraser]

In my experience, the bus can easily take an hour - or more - in the peak....when the Greyhound Bridge and ring road are often completely gridlocked.

That's not very frequent though - in any case, if all of the buses are stuck north of the Lune and queuing, you could turn a few using Morecambe Rd, Owen Rd and Lune St, then pick up passengers nearby. It's only about a 5 min walk from the bus station over the Millennium Bridge.

 

[FlyingPotato]

In my experience the 41 runs a quicker route to Morecambe down the main road compared to the 1/100 etc

As a cheaper alternative

Could a version of the 41 let's say called the 101 for arguments sake, run between Heysham and a new carpark just south of Galgate going through the University, Greaves road and possibly train station following the Morecambe road to Morecambe work if that makes sense


Or is Lancaster and the bay area a good experiment for how a single metro / light rail line with 2ph or more can serve an urban area. Which can be used as justification for somewhere like Oxford

 

[AlastairFraser]

In my experience the 41 runs a quicker route to Morecambe down the main road compared to the 1/100 etc

As a cheaper alternative

Could a version of the 41 let's say called the 101 for arguments sake, run between Heysham and a new carpark just south of Galgate going through the University, Greaves road and possibly train station following the Morecambe road to Morecambe work if that makes sense

It may be, but if you wanted more of an express variant I'd suggest a Park and Ride off Hazelrigg Lane as the southern terminus, then Barton Rd - Bowerham Rd - Dale St - Quarry Road - George St, then the A6 loop down to Lancaster bus station and on to Morecambe as you suggested.

Southbound route would be the same except for taking the southbound A6 loop adn directly turning onto Quarry St.
This would avoid the tailbacks leading on to the roundabout by Royal Lancaster Infirmary.

You could make such a route limited stop and run twice an hour to start with - if necessary reduce the frequency of the 100 slightly (4bph to 3bph?) to release drivers.

 

[randyrippley]

It may be, but if you wanted more of an express variant I'd suggest a Park and Ride off Hazelrigg Lane as the southern terminus, then Barton Rd - Bowerham Rd - Dale St - Quarry Road - George St, then the A6 loop down to Lancaster bus station and on to Morecambe as you suggested.

Southbound route would be the same except for taking the southbound A6 loop adn directly turning onto Quarry St.
This would avoid the tailbacks leading on to the roundabout by Royal Lancaster Infirmary.

You could make such a route limited stop and run twice an hour to start with - if necessary reduce the frequency of the 100 slightly (4bph to 3bph?) to release drivers.

Dale St is a one-way road, but you're not going to get buses safely down there anyway. In the other direction they would have to go via Prospect St, and that's not much better. Both are city centre residential streets , narrow with on-street parking on both sides and speed restricting street furniture

 

[FlyingPotato]

It may be, but if you wanted more of an express variant I'd suggest a Park and Ride off Hazelrigg Lane as the southern terminus, then Barton Rd - Bowerham Rd - Dale St - Quarry Road - George St, then the A6 loop down to Lancaster bus station and on to Morecambe as you suggested.

Southbound route would be the same except for taking the southbound A6 loop adn directly turning onto Quarry St.
This would avoid the tailbacks leading on to the roundabout by Royal Lancaster Infirmary.

You could make such a route limited stop and run twice an hour to start with - if necessary reduce the frequency of the 100 slightly (4bph to 3bph?) to release drivers.

I'd reduce the 1 instead for this one as it takes the role of the 1 not the 100s role. I don't know if bowerham resident wants to lose their service to add another for Greaves road

Personally overall I'd like to see an extra station for Lancaster south with a carpark to act as a station for university, Galgate and parkway

This station would be part of the introduction of new station around the bay.

Maybe Lancaster South to Heysham (with a new station)

 

[AlastairFraser]

Dale St is a one-way road, but you're not going to get buses safely down there anyway. In the other direction they would have to go via Prospect St, and that's not much better. Both are city centre residential streets , narrow with on-street parking on both sides and speed restricting street furniture

I did see that they are narrow with the planters at the entrance, but surely a bus could be run down there with careful planning?

There's no other way to avoid that car park of a roundabout by the hospital, unless you run down Coulston Road from Bowerham, then Wyresdale Rd and Moor Gate.

But even then, it's an issue because you have to run right round the city centre loop.

I'd reduce the 1 instead for this one as it takes the role of the 1 not the 100s role. I don't know if bowerham resident wants to lose their service to add another for Greaves road

Personally overall I'd like to see an extra station for Lancaster south with a carpark to act as a station for university, Galgate and parkway

This station would be part of the introduction of new station around the bay.

Maybe Lancaster South to Heysham (with a new station)

That's fair comment, maybe the new 101 to take the 1's route after Lancaster bus station and extend to Heysham to make up for it.

Unfortunately, Network Rail have said a new station is a non starter until improvements are made to capacity in the area, so an express bus from a park and ride is probably the only solution for now.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I did see that they are narrow with the planters at the entrance, but surely a bus could be run down there with careful planning?

There's no other way to avoid that car park of a roundabout by the hospital, unless you run down Coulston Road from Bowerham, then Wyresdale Rd and Moor Gate.

But even then, it's an issue because you have to run right round the city centre loop.


That's fair comment, maybe the new 101 to take the 1's route after Lancaster bus station and extend to Heysham to make up for it.

Unfortunately, Network Rail have said a new station is a non starter until improvements are made to capacity in the area, so an express bus from a park and ride is probably the only solution for now.

1 already goes to Heysham
It's Lancaster university to Heysham towers

My suggestion would be the 101 takes the 41s route to Morecambe which is quicker as it doesn't through the back roads to places like Torrisholme

 

[AlastairFraser]

1 already goes to Heysham
It's Lancaster university to Heysham towers

My suggestion would be the 101 takes the 41s route to Morecambe which is quicker as it doesn't through the back roads to places like Torrisholme

Yes, I know it does, I was suggesting doing what you suggested, but extending the new 101 to Heysham to ensure Heysham residents do not have a reduction in service.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Which will not happen in years
I walk by the track quite a lot, there isn't much space once you get into scotforth

My ideal world be 3/4 track between Preston and Carnforth which should allow for stuff

 

[AlastairFraser]

Which will not happen in years
I walk by the track quite a lot, there isn't much space once you get into scotforth

My ideal world be 3/4 track between Preston and Carnforth which should allow for stuff

That would be very expensive, loops is the best we're going to get.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Yes, I know it does, I was suggesting doing what you suggested, but extending the new 101 to Heysham to ensure Heysham residents do not have a reduction in service.

Ah I thought i said that
Or I might use the 2x route to allow a loop route

So you have express to both Heysham and Morecambe

That would be very expensive, loops is the best we're going to get.

Which is the unfortunate truth afterall

 

[AlastairFraser]

Ah I thought i said that
Or I might use the 2x route to allow a loop route

So you have express to both Heysham and Morecambe

Maybe - depends on what Stagecoach can rustle up.

 

[randyrippley]

Ah I thought i said that
Or I might use the 2x route to allow a loop route

So you have express to both Heysham and Morecambe


Which is the unfortunate truth afterall

The 100 and 2x IS a loop. It's the same bus changing numbers at Morecambe station
It runs Lancaster bus station - Morecambe Rd -Bay Gateway - Heysham - Battery - Morecambe station - Bare - Torrisholme - Lancaster Bus station - University

A lot of people speculating here who don't seem to know the area

1 already goes to Heysham
It's Lancaster university to Heysham towers

My suggestion would be the 101 takes the 41s route to Morecambe which is quicker as it doesn't through the back roads to places like Torrisholme

The original reason why what is now the 1/1A runs through Torrisholme and was switched to that route in ~1979 is because it has less traffic than Morecambe Rd and is actually often a quicker route during the day. Admittedly the bus lanes and roundabouts added to Morecambe Rd since then have improved things, but the Torrisholme route is often quicker

I did see that they are narrow with the planters at the entrance, but surely a bus could be run down there with careful planning?

Not a chance, too dangerous. You'd be putting buses down a narrow rat run

There IS a possible solution to Lancaster's traffic problem, and that is the never talked about internal relief road that was planned in the 1960s to run from the Pointer roundabout to Greyhound bridge.
There's a deliberately undeveloped strip of land between the two, currently mostly car park which has been a thorn in the councils side for 50 years. They're currently planning to hide the history by replacing the car parks with housing, which would probably be a death knell to the shopping centre.
In reality if the relief road were built it would remove most traffic from the town centre, so resolving much of the problem