High speed sleeper trains

[quantinghome]

These already exist in China; could they work in Europe? They would be ideal for longer journeys, for example London to Madrid, where there is already a continuous high speed route. Flygskam could generate significant demand.

 

[edwin_m]

High speed lines tend to be closed overnight for engineering access. Maybe if there was enough demand something could be worked out by co-ordinating the works taking place along the route and a timetable that allowed for (say) one diversion to the classic line somewhere along the route with single line working on some others. But it would need a lot of organisations to make fairly radical changes to their ways of working.

 

[Will Mitchell]

I’ve often thought (wished) this could work. It was a complete fantasy up until last year when, as far as I can tell, the public discourse with regards to the climate finally changed direction. Now I can honestly say I can see this happening within the next decade. Clearly there are significant operational difficulties which would need to be overcome, but the current situation - an effective (massive) subsidy for air travel - is no longer viable, both environmentally and politically. Bring it on.

 

[30907]

AIUI the demand for overnight travel in China is enormous, as are distances to/from eg Beijing and Shanghai, and HS sleepers form only a small part of the offer. I suspect there are hardly any comparable routes in Europe with the petential demand AND journey length - maybe Paris-Rome, if the Lyon-Torino transalpine HSL ever happens?

 

[Will Mitchell]

I suspect there are hardly any comparable routes in Europe with the petential demand AND journey length - maybe Paris-Rome, if the Lyon-Torino transalpine HSL ever happens?

Most flights I have taken from London to virtually anywhere in Europe have been full. Now I accept it’s not a 1:1 transition to high speed sleeper trains for various and obvious reasons that we can discuss but, given the recent upturn in the fortunes of night trains, I suspect there is a developing and potentially viable market from London to Berlin, Munich, Vienna, Barcelona and Madrid. As quantinghome correctly points out, there is a continuous high speed route to Spain, and various other high speed routes which could play a part in services to these other destinations.

 

[HSTEd]

Is the entire route available gauged to GC or are there gaps in France and Spain?

The extra height could be significantly useful in a sleeper train.

 

[PTR 444]

I’m all for high speed sleeper services but the thing is, would they need to run at a reduced speed to ensure that there is no discomfort for sleeping passengers?

 

[BowesRanger]

I would love this to be possible, London to Rome or Madrid overnight would be fantastic. But aside from all the operational issues already mentioned, price would have to come down a lot. 300 odd quid for a train vs 70 for a plane just wont work. Maybe if the passenger density could be increased, say with little capsule hotel style sleeping pods, that might help? In this day and age i dont see people really wanting to share six berth couchettes.. I certainly don't.

 

[edwin_m]

I’m all for high speed sleeper services but the thing is, would they need to run at a reduced speed to ensure that there is no discomfort for sleeping passengers?

Taking London-Madrid as an example, Paris to Madrid is 10hr with a connection of 30min or so in Barcelona, so London-Madrid would have to run at close to full speed to do it in something resembling an overnight. See also my post above regarding significant extra time for engineering allowances. Probably more likely that the sleeper would just be from Paris with London passengers having to connect via Eurostar. Combining London and Paris passengers would also help to fill a train.

 

[adamedwards]

The problem for London is the safety rules in the tunnel adding costs. A sleeper from Paris Gare du Nord not Lyons to Madrid would be more value for money.

 

[Aictos]

While the idea is interesting and brings up a number of challenges, I rather they A.) Keep HS services for the daytime which helps with the maintenance at night and B.) OBB is doing pretty well growing their Sleeper business so I like to see more investment with OBB leading by expanding with new routes and investing in staff as well as rolling stock.

 

[edwin_m]

The problem for London is the safety rules in the tunnel adding costs. A sleeper from Paris Gare du Nord not Lyons to Madrid would be more value for money.

I think the majority of users would be travelling to/from the Paris area not London. From my figures above Paris-Madrid might be about 12hr (shortening the Barcelona stop but adding time for engineering diversions) and 2000-0800 is about the longest that could claim to be an overnight. To catch that from London people would have to leave around 1700 Paris time or 1600 London time, similarly they would not be back in London until about 1000 local. I think faced with a journey of that length most London passengers would still fly. Similar arguments would apply for those going to/from the Low Countries, so probably might as well shorten the journey by using a southern terminus as there's not much benefit in running to Nord.

 

[Chester1]

Its not a popular view on a rail forum but high speed sleeper international sleeper services are not economically viable from UK.

The best environmental measure would be the UK unilaterally deciding to break current international agreements to apply fuel duty to kerosene (replacing passenger duty because its a blunt instrument). That would roughly halve the price gap between kerosene and artificial kerosene (assuming the latter stays tax free). It would provide a huge boost to renewable power generation giving a guaranteed market during periods of high demand. Hamburg Airport is blending 5% artificial kerosene into its fuel using excess Danish wind power. Its main components are carbon taken from air and hydrogen (chemical byproduct and through electrolysis of water). Such a tax change would also improve the economics of hybrid planes that Airbus are planning to launch in next 10-15 years.