Highbury & Islington with London Terminals ticket

[jon0844]

As a spin off from another thread I created yesterday, it seems I've opened up a can of worms on Twitter with varying advice/opinions on whether I can use a WGC (or Hatfield) to London Terminals to leave or arrive at Highbury & Islington station.

Yesterday thanks to all the cancelled trains to Moorgate, we decided to walk from Essex Road up to Highbury & Islington to get the tube to Finsbury Park, and was refused entry on the basis that we had a London Terminals ticket - and would have to continue (on foot, bus or whatever?) to Finsbury Park.

We were subsequently let through 'this time' and given we were in a bit of a hurry to get a train at FPK starting out of KGX, I couldn't discuss the issue.

For the record, I've been allowed in and out of the station before. If I buy a ticket for stations from FPK to MOG, I'll get a London Terminals one.

Essex Road and Highbury & Islington may not be London Terminals, but how do you travel to them if you can't get a ticket that implicitly prints that station name on them?

From what I've read on here, just as it always been accepted you can use the northern line to Moorgate (but not alight at Angel because it's not a station on the GN line), I've always assumed you could use the Victoria line between Finsbury Park and King's Cross, and have made the assumption that you could get off or on in between.

TfL has said on Twitter it thinks I can, but didn't say yes for definite. GN's Twitter feed also appeared to say no at first, then deleted the tweet and says it thinks I can too.

I've had Tweets from other people saying, no, it's not a London Terminal.

So, there's the break of journey argument. I didn't think of this at the time. For the moment, given the surprise, I forgot to even point out that GN trains stop at Highbury & Islington - so I could be trying to get that train, not the tune (in fact, he couldn't have even known!).

As GN can't seem to run trains at the moment, I can see myself having to use Highbury & Islington most weekends for the foreseeable, and walk (or pay extra to use the bus) so I wonder what ticket I am supposed to buy - or if there's anything I can carry to avoid future problems.. not least the issue of what happens if not being allowed OUT the station, and having the risk of a penalty fare.

 

[yorkie]

... we decided to walk from Essex Road up to Highbury & Islington to get the tube to Finsbury Park, and was refused entry on the basis that we had a London Terminals ticket - and would have to continue (on foot, bus or whatever?) to Finsbury Park.

This is incorrect. It is valid intermediately at Highbury & Islington. This is documented in the relevant staff manuals and isn't difficult for relevant LU staff to know about.

LU customer service assistants are supposed to be "Friendly, reliable, helpful people with outgoing personalities and a genuine passion for delivering outstanding customer service. We are looking for confident people who can quickly take in information about our services, become experts on their local working areas and promote a positive image at all times."

They should "get a real buzz from helping people and are passionate about assisting customers, come help us demonstrate that “every journey matters”, and ensure that our customers remain at the centre of everything we do here at London Underground" and are paid £30,079.

I wish I could say this was an isolated incident. But it isn't. It actually happens quite often and I've witnessed some staff acting the complete opposite of being "helpful" and "friendly" over this rule on numerous occasions, and heard of people encountering similar experiences on numbers occasions. So I would definitely ensure you make a complaint!

We were subsequently let through 'this time' and given we were in a bit of a hurry to get a train at FPK starting out of KGX, I couldn't discuss the issue.

For the record, I've been allowed in and out of the station before. If I buy a ticket for stations from FPK to MOG, I'll get a London Terminals one.

Essex Road and Highbury & Islington may not be London Terminals, but how do you travel to them if you can't get a ticket that implicitly prints that station name on them?

The London Terminals tickets in question are valid to start/finish short or break & resume your journey at those locations.

From what I've read on here, just as it always been accepted you can use the northern line to Moorgate (but not alight at Angel because it's not a station on the GN line), I've always assumed you could use the Victoria line between Finsbury Park and King's Cross, and have made the assumption that you could get off or on in between.

You are correct that you can't use the stations which are LU only such as Angel.

TfL has said on Twitter it thinks I can, but didn't say yes for definite.

They are correct.

GN's Twitter feed also appeared to say no at first, then deleted the tweet and says it thinks I can too.

GTR do have a habit of making mistakes, and then correcting themselves. At least they got there in the end.

I've had Tweets from other people saying, no, it's not a London Terminal.

They're clueless then, and are just making up their own rules on the spot. It's amazing how many people do that!

So, there's the break of journey argument. I didn't think of this at the time. For the moment, given the surprise, I forgot to even point out that GN trains stop at Highbury & Islington - so I could be trying to get that train, not the tune (in fact, he couldn't have even known!).

It's very poor. LU need to do more checks to ensure the people they appoint are actually doing the job they're paid £30k+ to do, in my opinion.

As GN can't seem to run trains at the moment, I can see myself having to use Highbury & Islington most weekends for the foreseeable, and walk (or pay extra to use the bus) so I wonder what ticket I am supposed to buy - or if there's anything I can carry to avoid future problems.. not least the issue of what happens if not being allowed OUT the station, and having the risk of a penalty fare.

I'm not so sure you're at risk of a Penalty Fare; LU's revenue protection officers will surely be aware of the rules.

 

[Hadders]

Staff knowledge of the inter-available route between Finsbury Park/Kings Cross/Moorgate is very poor, despite it being in place since at least 1976! For months there was an incorrectly worded poster at Kings Cross St Pancras saying National Rail tickets weren't valid, thankfully the barriers were programmed correctly and let me through with a Stevenage - London Terminals ticket so I could continue my journey to Moorgate.

There was a rumour that this inter-availability was going to be abolished when trains started running to Moorgate late night and at weekends. In my opinion it's needed more than ever now as passengers making trips to London at weekends on the inner suburban services are more likely to want to go to Kings Cross than Moorgate. I suspect most people wouldn't even know about the inter-availability and pay again when they don't need to although to be fair most of the passengers on the inner suburban services will be using Oyster PAYG or contactless which should calculate the correct fare anyway.

We did have a thread on here a year or so back about someone who received a PF on the Underground between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross when using a valid London Terminals ticket. Thankfully it was cancelled on appeal.

 

[Wolfie]

I go through H&I daily. There are, or have been, signs up stating that London Terminal tickets are not valid. An exception is made for Great Northern tickets.

 

[jon0844]

I go through H&I daily. There are, or have been, signs up stating that London Terminal tickets are not valid. An exception is made for Great Northern tickets.

A recipe for disaster then, as they'll quote the text on the posters and it make it very hard for me to convince them otherwise.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I go through H&I daily. There are, or have been, signs up stating that London Terminal tickets are not valid. An exception is made for Great Northern tickets.

Those signs are also at Kings Cross, and they're just as wrong there, as Hadders mentions.

I know what point they're trying to make- that tickets to London Terminals aren't valid for a day's pootling around on the tube- but these signs need to be right. And London Terminals tickets are valid to start/end short at High & I for anyone travelling along the Northern City Line, even leaving aside the interavailability issue.

 

[swt_passenger]

Those signs are also at Kings Cross, and they're just as wrong there, as Hadders mentions.

I know what point they're trying to make- that tickets to London Terminals aren't valid for a day's pootling around on the tube- but these signs need to be right. And London Terminals tickets are valid to start/end short at High & I for anyone travelling along the Northern City Line, even leaving aside the interavailability issue.

I wonder if they've also potentially got problems with people using them having come up the ELL from the 'Southern', or along the NLL from Stratford, or even from the west somewhere. Symptomatic of London Terminals being coded the same way no matter what the origin, and working all over the place...

 

[furlong]

Those signs are also at Kings Cross, and they're just as wrong there, as Hadders mentions.

If you think the signs might lead to people buying more expensive tickets that they need to, then ask the ORR to investigate as a possible breach of consumer legislation.

 

[OwlMan]

I go through H&I daily. There are, or have been, signs up stating that London Terminal tickets are not valid. An exception is made for Great Northern tickets.

Are there any tickets valid through H & I to Moorgate except those from Finbury Park & northwards? If not that poster with those exceptions is basically correct.

 

[jon0844]

My understanding is that a London Terminals ticket is to the (London) end of the lines that you travel on, so King's Cross or Moorgate in the case of Great Northern. There is of course the confusion on Thameslink on account of there being a southern LT and northern LT with a gap in-between. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't just make London Terminals tickets valid on any station in the core.

I am not sure what other services besides GN would issue a London Terminals ticket that anyone would expect to be valid? Are there LT tickets for London Overground?

On that basis, what London Terminals tickets would TfL be talking about, or is it just that they're putting these posters up at all stations where they share with National Rail services?

Doesn't ATOC have a duty to make sure these posters are modified or removed?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Any LONDON TERMINALS ticket (except advances and TOC specific tickets) which is valid to Kings Cross is also valid to Moorgate and Old Street and, by extension, High & I, Essex Road and Drayton Park.

I expect the issue is people doing a loop round on the Overground or using LONDON TERMINALS tickets on the tube (outside the interavailability). But these signs need to be right.

 

[rmt4ever]

This is incorrect. It is valid intermediately at Highbury & Islington. This is documented in the relevant staff manuals and isn't difficult for relevant LU staff to know about.

LU customer service assistants are supposed to be "Friendly, reliable, helpful people with outgoing personalities and a genuine passion for delivering outstanding customer service. We are looking for confident people who can quickly take in information about our services, become experts on their local working areas and promote a positive image at all times."

They should "get a real buzz from helping people and are passionate about assisting customers, come help us demonstrate that “every journey matters”, and ensure that our customers remain at the centre of everything we do here at London Underground" and are paid £30,079.

I wish I could say this was an isolated incident. But it isn't. It actually happens quite often and I've witnessed some staff acting the complete opposite of being "helpful" and "friendly" over this rule on numerous occasions, and heard of people encountering similar experiences on numbers occasions. So I would definitely ensure you make a complaint!



The London Terminals tickets in question are valid to start/finish short or break & resume your journey at those locations.

You are correct that you can't use the stations which are LU only such as Angel.

They are correct.

GTR do have a habit of making mistakes, and then correcting themselves. At least they got there in the end.

They're clueless then, and are just making up their own rules on the spot. It's amazing how many people do that!

It's very poor. LU need to do more checks to ensure the people they appoint are actually doing the job they're paid £30k+ to do, in my opinion.

I'm not so sure you're at risk of a Penalty Fare; LU's revenue protection officers will surely be aware of the rules.

What a joke. LT expect the barrier staff to be experts in the local area. At my local station we had a few regular barrier staff who I knew very well. They had been at the station each for between 10 and 20 years and lived locally and knew the area and the passengers very well and were all very well respected.

Recently they were all sent to new locations further away from home against their will and have been replaced by new faces who all seem to live miles away and don't have a clue about the local area.

From what I gather this has happened all over London Underground.

 

[jon0844]

The guy I spoke to said he'd never heard of it in all his years, so maybe he'd been moved from elsewhere. That might explain things.

There was a lady in the nearby booth that took an interest in our conversation (as in coming out and staring, perhaps wondering if I was going to raise my voice or kick off) but never stepped in to say anything. Not even backing him up!

 

[Hadders]

The guy I spoke to said he'd never heard of it in all his years, so maybe he'd been moved from elsewhere. That might explain things.

I had similar at Kings Cross last year, staff knew nothing about it when I queried the incorrect poster (there's a thread somewhere on here about it). Thankfully an old stager came along who knew about it.

I complained to TfL about it but never even received a reply. Thankfully at Kins Cross it's not really a problem as London Terminals tickets do work the barriers but one day I bet they won't, then there really will be problems.

 

[Steveoh]

I had similar at Kings Cross last year, staff knew nothing about it when I queried the incorrect poster (there's a thread somewhere on here about it). Thankfully an old stager came along who knew about it.

I complained to TfL about it but never even received a reply. Thankfully at Kins Cross it's not really a problem as London Terminals tickets do work the barriers but one day I bet they won't, then there really will be problems.

I've had a London Terminals ticket swallowed at St Pancras at the EMT gates when I was off to Moorgate. I'd booked a ticket online to Moorgate* and was quite surprised to find I'd a ticket to London Terminals out of the machine. I checked with the guard on the way down and he wasn't sure it was valid. I queried it afterwards and was told it had been fixed but I've never had the opportunity to try again.


*this was before I knew about the meaning of London Terminals, I just knew Moorgate was on the National Rail network.

 

[Hadders]

I've had a London Terminals ticket swallowed at St Pancras at the EMT gates when I was off to Moorgate. I'd booked a ticket online to Moorgate* and was quite surprised to find I'd a ticket to London Terminals out of the machine. I checked with the guard on the way down and he wasn't sure it was valid. I queried it afterwards and was told it had been fixed but I've never had the opportunity to try again.


*this was before I knew about the meaning of London Terminals, I just knew Moorgate was on the National Rail network.

That would be correct. Your issue was that the ticket retailer sold you the wrong ticket - you needed either a Travelcard or a ticket to Zone U12 London. I assume you were travelling from north of Bedford as tickets between Bedford and Kentish Town to London are issued to 'London Thameslink' which does allow onward travel to Moorgate on Thameslink services.

It is a complicated situation, not helped by the Thameslink works at London Bridge where some temporary easements have been put in place to give some passengers more flexibility in getting to London Bridge. While I support simplification in principle I'll get you guess what would happen to the cost of fares if a simplification took place here...

 

[swt_passenger]

That would be correct. Your issue was that the ticket retailer sold you the wrong ticket - you needed either a Travelcard or a ticket to Zone U12 London. I assume you were travelling from north of Bedford as tickets between Bedford and Kentish Town to London are issued to 'London Thameslink' which does allow onward travel to Moorgate on Thameslink services...

That stopped (after a transitional period) when the Moorgate branch closed though...

 

[Hadders]

That stopped (after a transitional period) when the Moorgate branch closed though...

Yes, of course. My bad. You can go to Moorgate, Farringdon, City Thameslink etc. But no longer Moorgate.

 

[swt_passenger]

In fact I've since had a look at NFM 99 Section A, from Jan 2008, which was valid during the period shortly before the branch closed, and it has a diagram that shows Barbican and Moorgate in a separate box and NOT part of 'London Thameslnk'; they used fares to the named destinations of Barbican UND and Moorgate UND.

So it appears to show that London Thameslink fares were not ever actually valid at Moorgate, (despite what may have happened in practice) but it would be interesting if anyone knows different?

 

[Steveoh]

That would be correct. Your issue was that the ticket retailer sold you the wrong ticket - you needed either a Travelcard or a ticket to Zone U12 London. I assume you were travelling from north of Bedford as tickets between Bedford and Kentish Town to London are issued to 'London Thameslink' which does allow onward travel to Moorgate on Thameslink services.

It is a complicated situation, not helped by the Thameslink works at London Bridge where some temporary easements have been put in place to give some passengers more flexibility in getting to London Bridge. While I support simplification in principle I'll get you guess what would happen to the cost of fares if a simplification took place here...

It was East Midlands Parkway to London terminals, purchased through east coast web site. I put East Midlands Parkway to Moorgate into the booking engine. I had an email confirmation with underground connection to Moorgate. So that journey ends at St Pancras does it and isn't valid through to Moorgate?

This is the itinerary from the booking confirmation email.

Departs: East Midlands Parkway at 08:35
Train Operator: East Midland Trains
Arrives: London St Pancras at 10:06
Seats Reserved: Coach: C Seats: 61A
Departs: London St Pancras at 10:21 by Underground
Arrives: Moorgate at 10:35 by Underground

 

[Hadders]

It was East Midlands Parkway to London terminals, purchased through east coast web site. I put East Midlands Parkway to Moorgate into the booking engine. I had an email confirmation with underground connection to Moorgate. So that journey ends at St Pancras does it and isn't valid through to Moorgate?

This is the itinerary from the booking confirmation email.

Departs: East Midlands Parkway at 08:35
Train Operator: East Midland Trains
Arrives: London St Pancras at 10:06
Seats Reserved: Coach: C Seats: 61A
Departs: London St Pancras at 10:21 by Underground
Arrives: Moorgate at 10:35 by Underground

I've just looked on EMT's website. The price it charges for a walk up ticket from East Midlands Parkway to Moorgate is £6 more return) compared with a return to St Pancras. This is the usual add on price for a Zone U12 ticket, which is what should be printed on the ticket, rather than London Terminals.

What type of ticket did you have and how much did you pay? Did you end up paying again to get to Moorgate?

 

[Steveoh]

I've just looked on EMT's website. The price it charges for a walk up ticket from East Midlands Parkway to Moorgate is £6 more return) compared with a return to St Pancras. This is the usual add on price for a Zone U12 ticket, which is what should be printed on the ticket, rather than London Terminals.

What type of ticket did you have and how much did you pay? Did you end up paying again to get to Moorgate?

It was an advance. Presumably it was some kind of IT error with the booking, rather than the gates. I've done a bit of reading round and I understand its only valid to Moorgate if the ticket is to London Terminals and arrivals into Kings Cross. Say a Nottingham to London Terminals any permitted travelling via Grantham. Is that right?

 

[clagmonster]

Any LONDON TERMINALS ticket (except advances and TOC specific tickets) which is valid to Kings Cross is also valid to Moorgate and Old Street and, by extension, High & I, Essex Road and Drayton Park.

Where is the exemption that advances to London Terminals are not valid to Moorgate and Old Street? Surely as long as they either have a geographic route restriction or include '& Connections' in the routeing, they are fine. Of course, if they are issued with a reservation to Kings X then they are not valid to Highbury, Essex Road or Drayton Park.

 

[Hadders]

Where is the exemption that advances to London Terminals are not valid to Moorgate and Old Street? Surely as long as they either have a geographic route restriction or include '& Connections' in the routeing, they are fine. Of course, if they are issued with a reservation to Kings X then they are not valid to Highbury, Essex Road or Drayton Park.

I agree. If the routeeing ping on an Advance ticket is 'VTEC only', or 'Hull Trains only, then it would not be valid for onward travel to Moorgate. If it's 'AP Peterborough' (which most of my VTEC Advance tickets are) or 'VTEC & Connections' then onward travel would be allowed.

Nottingham to London Terminals is an interesting one. Travel via Grantham into Kings Cross is a permitted route which would therefore allow onward travel to Moorgate. However onward travel to Moorgate is not allowed if you travel into St Pancras.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It was an advance. Presumably it was some kind of IT error with the booking

Yes it seems to be a bug in WebTIS, the booking engine used on the East Coast website. It's still there for journeys tomorrow (I checked on a different WebTIS-powered site, Chiltern, because the new front-end "skin" on the Virgin East Coast site doesn't even recognise Moorgate as a station!)

If the routeeing ping on an Advance ticket is 'VTEC only', or 'Hull Trains only, then it would not be valid for onward travel to Moorgate.

Wouldn't be valid on the Great Northern service via Drayton Park and Essex Road, yes, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be valid on the Underground from King's Cross. The way I see it that validity is a special arrangement with London Underground for tickets to London Terminals, and normal routeing rules don't apply.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Of course, if they are issued with a reservation to Kings X then they are not valid to Highbury, Essex Road or Drayton Park.

That's more what I was getting at

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I wonder if they've also potentially got problems with people using them having come up the ELL from the 'Southern', or along the NLL from Stratford, or even from the west somewhere. Symptomatic of London Terminals being coded the same way no matter what the origin, and working all over the place...

The posters at Highbury And Islington, where are they situated? In the upstairs interchange are, between tube / ELL and NLL ? If so, they need to be more accurate as to which London Terminals tickets are not valid there.

I think swt_passenger is correct, that they are trying to prevent people from non-GN stations (or those that have not come down the East Coast main line at some point on their journey) from using H&I to get to Moorgate or Kings Cross.

I have seen a notice at Clapham Junction, on Platform 1, stating

tickets marked 'London Terminals' are not valid on trains from this Platform

Leaving aside the truth that trains from that particular Platform do not go to Victoria or Waterloo, is that notice also designed to make it abundantly clear that a London Terminals ticket from Southern or SWT land cannot be used to travel via the NLL to Highbury and thence to London Kings Cross ?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I have seen a notice at Clapham Junction, on Platform 1, stating

tickets marked 'London Terminals' are not valid on trains from this Platform

Leaving aside the truth that trains from that particular Platform do not go to Victoria or Waterloo, is that notice also designed to make it abundantly clear that a London Terminals ticket from Southern or SWT land cannot be used to travel via the NLL to Highbury and thence to London Kings Cross ?

Interesting; I think a ticket from London Terminals to Watford Junction routed CLAPHAM JUNCTION would certainly be valid on trains from that platform - unless it said tickets marked to London Terminals?

 

[Wolfie]

The posters at Highbury And Islington, where are they situated? In the upstairs interchange are, between tube / ELL and NLL ? If so, they need to be more accurate as to which London Terminals tickets are not valid there.

I think swt_passenger is correct, that they are trying to prevent people from non-GN stations (or those that have not come down the East Coast main line at some point on their journey) from using H&I to get to Moorgate or Kings Cross.

I have seen a notice at Clapham Junction, on Platform 1, stating

tickets marked 'London Terminals' are not valid on trains from this Platform

Leaving aside the truth that trains from that particular Platform do not go to Victoria or Waterloo, is that notice also designed to make it abundantly clear that a London Terminals ticket from Southern or SWT land cannot be used to travel via the NLL to Highbury and thence to London Kings Cross ?

They were attached to one of the mobile whiteboards in the entrance/exit hall.