Historic service patterns in the Brighton Main Line

[D6130]

They certainly had a much "older" feel than the 42x electric stock constructed from the mid-60s to early-70s, so I likely assumed they were significantly older.

The 2H (and later 3H) DEMUs were basically a diesel-electric version of the contemporary 2-HAP EMUs, although all except 1119-22 later had BR style 4-EPB centre trailer added to cope with increasing demand.

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for that, does look significantly different than the scheme present in the 80s. Lots of duplicates as well, 1 and 2 are used several times - but this practice persisted later, I seem to remember in the 80s that 1 or 01 was common for a branch shuttle.

Here are the headcodes (as they're now called) from 1979:

 

[Taunton]

This was an interesting one - a rare through service from London onto the Redhill-Guildford section of the North Downs line. Presumably this would have been Thumpers by 1959/60, I'd imagine trying to split a steam service at Redhill in the peak would have been a recipe for delays.

Actually it was a regular all-day (though not hourly) operation to the end of steam services, London Bridge to Redhill, thence dividing for Tonbridge and Reading. Probably an N class 2-6-0 and two short rakes of three coaches. Not often realised that the London Bridge to Redhill part was joint Brighton and South Eastern railways, not joint ownership but in separate sections, each having running powers over the other. This was the original way to Tonbridge and Dover - the direct line via Orpington came later. Likewise the lines from Redhill to Tonbridge and Reading were fully South Eastern, so it was just retaining an old service pattern.

The Old Southern was as efficient dividing steam services as electric ones. Otherwise thing like the Atlantic Coast Express would never have worked. It's only nowadays that it takes for ever to do so.

Thanks for that, does look significantly different than the scheme present in the 80s. Lots of duplicates as well, 1 and 2 are used several times

There were. Someone once worked out that it would be possible to have four trains running parallel out of London Bridge with the same code.

 

[nw1]

Here are the headcodes (as they're now called) from 1979:

These are the ones I remember from the 80s, except by then no Bognor services went via Dorking, and 72 was reused for some Victoria-Smitham peak EPB services, Coulsdon North having closed. Presumably it was also used for Victoria-Tattenham Corner though the off-peak service in this period (1986-88) was IIRC 455-operated, and therefore did not display headcodes.

Strange inconsistency with 46/47 being used for Bognor via Dorking, while the equivalent to Portsmouth was 28/29.

I've always wondered whether 24/25 (Brighton stopper via Quarry) or 5 (fast from London Bridge) was ever used in practice in the post-1979 era. I've seen all the other Brighton codes in use (except 95), but never these three.

 

[D6130]

I've always wondered whether 24/25 (Brighton stopper via Quarry) or 5 (fast from London Bridge) was ever used in practice in the post-1979 era. I've seen all the other Brighton codes in use (except 95), but never these three.

When I was a guard at Brighton in the mid 1980s I only saw the 24 headcode being used on the couple of weekends when the Redhill resignalling was being done and rail replacement buses were in operation between Purley and Horley. However, I never saw the 25 headcode in use. The 5 headcode was used from time to time when the Brighton fasts where diverted to/from London Bridge due to engineering works....although only when the route via Crystal Palace and Steatham Hill was also not available.

 

[30907]

Thanks for that, does look significantly different than the scheme present in the 80s. Lots of duplicates as well, 1 and 2 are used several times - but this practice persisted later, I seem to remember in the 80s that 1 or 01 was common for a branch shuttle.

BR(S) changed headcodes more frequently than people (I among them) remember. There was a substantial change in 1967 with the Bournemouth electrification.

Actually it was a regular all-day (though not hourly) operation to the end of steam services, London Bridge to Redhill, thence dividing for Tonbridge and Reading. Probably an N class 2-6-0 and two short rakes of three coaches.

With respect, actually it wasn't (after 1932) and Wikipedia is correct.
Reigate was also served by a half-hourly 2-BIL/HAL (either detached from the all-stations London trains or a shuttle).

Round about the time the Oxted line was dieselised, the 5.25pm was replaced by an 8-LAV (or similar) to Reigate, with steam connections thence. Not sure how the morning train was covered.

Unusually, the line was mostly worked in its later days with 4-coach "Restriction 1" stock (interworking with the Tunbridge Wells West lines), though IIRC the 5.25pm had better!

 

[GS250]

Those xx:02 fast workings from Victoria to Brighton felt like proper main line services back in the day. Most were 12 cars long and including a dedicated catering vehicle.

 

[Rescars]

Actually it was a regular all-day (though not hourly) operation to the end of steam services, London Bridge to Redhill, thence dividing for Tonbridge and Reading. Probably an N class 2-6-0 and two short rakes of three coaches. Not often realised that the London Bridge to Redhill part was joint Brighton and South Eastern railways, not joint ownership but in separate sections, each having running powers over the other. This was the original way to Tonbridge and Dover - the direct line via Orpington came later. Likewise the lines from Redhill to Tonbridge and Reading were fully South Eastern, so it was just retaining an old service pattern.

The Old Southern was as efficient dividing steam services as electric ones. Otherwise thing like the Atlantic Coast Express would never have worked. It's only nowadays that it takes for ever to do so.


There were. Someone once worked out that it would be possible to have four trains running parallel out of London Bridge with the same code.

On the topic of SR efficiency in working steam services, IIRC, during the Dunkirk evacuation the troop and ambulance trains working through Redhill were reversed, had fresh locos attached, were brake tested and away towards Reading within two minutes of arrival. The military were impressed.

Returning to the OP, does anyone know how the local services using the Quarry Line to and from Coulsdon North impacted main line operating?

 

[nw1]

Those xx:02 fast workings from Victoria to Brighton felt like proper main line services back in the day. Most were 12 cars long and including a dedicated catering vehicle.

Certainly 12 cars in, and close to, the peak, according to my memories from 1985-88 and the CWNs of 1981/2 and 1982/3. Some diagrams reduced to 8-cars off peak, with one of the CIGs typically split off to form a semi-fast service or go to the sidings, and rejoined later in the day.

Furthermore the Brighton semi-fast on the opposite half-hour, the Littlehampton and Hastings services, and (in 1981/2 and 1982/3, but not from 1985-88) the Bognor also had a buffet. The Central Division had a lot of BIGs, both the older (2101 upwards, formerly numbered below 7049) and newer varieties (7049-58, later 2201-10).

 

[D6130]

The Central Division had a lot of BIGs, both the older (2101 upwards, formerly numbered below 7049) and newer varieties (7049-58, later 2201-10).

They also had quite a few BEPs - 7001-7012, IIRC, prior to the refurbishment programme in the 1980s - and these were mainly used on the Victoria-Bognor services, as well as some peak hour trains to/from London Bridge. The later BIGs (7049-58) were transferred from the Portsmouth Direct Line (SWD) when the latter gained the refurbished BEPs (2301-7). They in turn replaced the earlier BEPs, which became refurbished CEPs with the addition of a Mark 1 TSO to replace the buffet cars, which were withdrawn.

 

[JonathanH]

Returning to the OP, does anyone know how the local services using the Quarry Line to and from Coulsdon North impacted main line operating?

The track layout through East Croydon and out to the divergence of the Redhill and Quarry lines prior to the early 1980s remodelling was very different from the arrangements now.

 

[30907]

The track layout through East Croydon and out to the divergence of the Redhill and Quarry lines prior to the early 1980s remodelling was very different from the arrangements now.

More specifically, Coulsdon N trains used the Local lines which were the Western pair from Windmill Br Jn. Caterham/Tattenham Corner trains used the Through lines though, which was less convenient (but IIRC skipped S Croydon and Purley Oaks).

 

[nw1]

Very interesting document has been added to Timetable World - the 1962 CWN for Victoria, see here:

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

Fascinating insight into the "prewar EMU" era.

The service pattern has been partly mentioned above, but not all the branches so the complete pattern appears to be as follows. Stopping patterns are from the following year - 1963 - timetable on Timetable World so might not reflect 1962 but "probably" do.

xx00 Brighton non-stop; Brighton Belle every 4 hours (which meant some interesting stock movements to accommodate this, as theoretically only 3 diagrams were required for an hourly service)
xx06 Bognor via Gatwick, semi-fast to Gatwick then all stations. Portion detached at Gatwick
xx09 Oxted line service, seemed to be, from what I can make out, Tunbridge Wells West via East Grinstead
xx18 Bognor fast via Dorking, one or two gaps (e.g. no 1318)
xx21 Gatwick (East Croydon and Redhill) (daily in 1962, but seemed to be FO in 1963)
xx25 Littlehampton via Worthing, but not all hours
xx28 Brighton semi-fast (Clapham, East Croydon, Redhill, Haywards Heath, Preston Park)
xx36 Bognor via Gatwick, as xx06
xx45 Eastbourne and Ore, but not all hours
xx47 Brighton stopper, Clapham, East Croydon, Purley then all
xx51 Gatwick, as per xx21

Some interesting things here; firstly, even in 1962 you can see the forerunner of the Gatwick Express with a 15-min interval clockface semi-fast service. (In fact it's very similar to the early-80s "Rapid City Link" which also detached portions at Gatwick).

Interesting also that the Littlehampton and Ore fasts do not run every hour, with some gaps in the middle of the day on Mon-Fri (Sats had more services).

In terms of stock, the Brighton fast, Littlehampton and Ores were generally run with PULs and PANs, sometimes in multiple with CORs - except the Brighton Belle run with 10BEL. Some interworking between Ores and Brighton fasts occurred (e.g. 0925 and 1025 up fasts from Brighton formed 1045 and 1145 to Ore).

The Bognor fasts at xx18 were COR/BUF/COR combos in the main and conveyed a Portsmouth Harbour portion (4COR), in that respect they were similar to their early 80s equivalent.

The Bognors and the Gatwick terminators were BILs, with the Bognors detaching a 2HAL at Gatwick.

The Brighton semi-fasts and stoppers were generally a mixture of LAVs and BILs, and generally interworked at Victoria, with some exceptions. One service (the 1128 semi-fast) seemed to convey a 4SUB. Interesting to note that the Brighton semi-fast of 1962 used "stopping service" stock in the main, in contrast to the later use of CIGs and BIGs, identical to the fasts.

There were some summer-only workings which incorporated CEPs, e.g. the 1032 to Eastbourne, and the 1113 Brighton (CEP/EPB/CEP - with the EPB in the middle). "Loans" from the South Eastern in between the peaks?

Finally the xx09 Oxted service seemed to be a mixture of DEMUs and (presumably) steam, with the inbound and outbound stock not always matching each hour, leading to some interesting stock movements.

 

[30907]

(Victoria workings)

There were some summer-only workings which incorporated CEPs, e.g. the 1032 to Eastbourne, and the 1113 Brighton (CEP/EPB/CEP - with the EPB in the middle). "Loans" from the South Eastern in between the peaks?

It's possible to identify the peculiar Brighton working as an identical formation appears on the 5.53pm Eastbourne/Brighton.
The stock must have worked up to London Br in the morning peak, ECS to Streatham Hill then VIC, down to the coast, empty back to S.H. - and the Brighton portion then forms a 7.13pm dated Up and empty to Eastbourne.
A lot of empty mileage, but typical Southern.
I can't see what the other set did but I would guess coast to London Bridge and back in the evening, rather than anything SE - there were certainly several CEP/BEP workings even in the early 60s, as there were more than enough for SE requirements.

xx09 Oxted line service, seemed to be, from what I can make out, Tunbridge Wells West via East Grinstead

Yes.

Finally the xx09 Oxted service seemed to be a mixture of DEMUs and (presumably) steam, with the inbound and outbound stock not always matching each hour, leading to some interesting stock movements.

I note a working for a 6 DEMU (S) among them - ie a surplus 6S Hastings unit.

The 3D units were not all in service at the start of the summer timetable, and the dieselisation plan always included loco hauled workings - I suspect steam still ruled in 1962 though.

 

[nw1]

It's possible to identify the peculiar Brighton working as an identical formation appears on the 5.53pm Eastbourne/Brighton.

Hadn't got round to looking at the peaks in detail yet in the CWN, but I did see that in the 1963 timetable and did wonder about the stock because it wasn't marked as Buffet or Pullman in the timetable. Incidentally one feature of these early-60s timetables was more Brighton expresses in the peak, either non-stop or just one stop (the above service divided at Haywards Heath but had no other stops). So there was a 17.00 from London Bridge non-stop, a 17.23 non-stop from Victoria, this 17.53, and an 18.30 non-stop from Victoria. By the 80s, no Brighton service with just one or two stops existed in the peak - presumably because there were more peak services by the 80s and no longer paths for expresses.

The stock must have worked up to London Br in the morning peak, ECS to Streatham Hill then VIC, down to the coast, empty back to S.H. - and the Brighton portion then forms a 7.13pm dated Up and empty to Eastbourne.
A lot of empty mileage, but typical Southern.
I can't see what the other set did but I would guess coast to London Bridge and back in the evening, rather than anything SE - there were certainly several CEP/BEP workings even in the early 60s, as there were more than enough for SE requirements.

Thanks for that - interesting. Thanks also for the info on the Oxted services.

While the stock is different and there are likely steam workings, it's interesting that the style of the CWN is very reminiscent of the 80s equivalent - in fact even the font is the same on the 80s SWD equivalents! (though the CD and SED used a more 'modern' Helvetica-style font by then). Also of note is that the Chatham section calls CEPs "C.E.P." but the Brighton section calls them "Cep" (the style later adopted by all)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Also, another feature of both this era and the early 80s was the closure during off-peak hours of Earlswood and Salfords.

Not forgetting that Earlswood was served by rush hour fast trains from the the now closed fast line platforms up to when im not sure but my neighbour was using it in the 60's so may have only happened when Earlswood Jcn was remodelled for Brighton Line Resignalling.

 

[nw1]

Incidentally how long did the "electrification" pattern, introduced in the 1930s and still present in 1962/63 from what I can make out, persist?

I do remember hearing that there were big changes in 1978, when the early-80s pattern, or something close to it, came in.

So was the 1933 electrification pattern, typified perhaps by the 1963 timetable, essentially (with tweaks) still present until 1978? I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was the case. Long ago I had an old 1972 timetable for the Southern Region and I swear some of the early-60s patterns look familiar, perhaps from that (e.g. the xx06, xx36 Arun Valley via Gatwick and the alternating Brighton stoppers from Victoria and London Bridge). Would be interested to hear if, when the CIGs and VEPs came in, they essentially took over the same services at the same times in each hour that the PULs, BILs, LAVs, etc formerly worked.

If so, at 45 years that must be close to the record for persistence of a base timetable!

 

[jfollows]

I've got a 1974 Central Division suburban timetable, so it shows departures from London, and between 10am and 11am we have:

Victoria
10:00 4 Brighton
10:02 20 Portsmouth & Bognor Regis
10:06 98 Bognor Regis
10:09 66 DEMU East Grinstead
10:19 10 Gatwick Airport
10:23 16 Littlehampton
10:28 12 Brighton
10:36 46 Horsham
10:44 14 Brighton
10:48 52 Ore
10:52 10 Gatwick Airport

London Bridge
10:00 5 Brighton
10:12 15 Brighton
10:28 93 Caterham & Tattenham Corner (from Charing Cross)
10:58 93 Caterham & Tattenham Corner (from Charing Cross)
no 11:00 Brighton, the next similar service is the 16:00 5 Brighton & Ore

 

[30907]

Incidentally how long did the "electrification" pattern, introduced in the 1930s and still present in 1962/63 from what I can make out, persist?

I do remember hearing that there were big changes in 1978, when the early-80s pattern, or something close to it, came in.

So was the 1933 electrification pattern, typified perhaps by the 1963 timetable, essentially (with tweaks) still present until 1978? I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was the case. Long ago I had an old 1972 timetable for the Southern Region and I swear some of the early-60s patterns look familiar, perhaps from that (e.g. the xx06, xx36 Arun Valley via Gatwick and the alternating Brighton stoppers from Victoria and London Bridge). Would be interested to hear if, when the CIGs and VEPs came in, they essentially took over the same services at the same times in each hour that the PULs, BILs, LAVs, etc formerly worked.

If so, at 45 years that must be close to the record for persistence of a base timetable!

Post #21 (as just edited) describes the 1967 changes affecting the main line - ISTR there were some modest accelerations as the CIGs etc could do 90 in places.

 

[nw1]

Post #21 (as just edited) describes the 1967 changes affecting the main line - ISTR there were some modest accelerations as the CIGs etc could do 90 in places.

Ah, ok - thanks - somehow I missed that one!

Thinking about it (which involves thinking back to 1987, which is when I obtained that 1972 timetable - sadly haven't had it now for years!) I seem to remember only one of the xx06 / xx36 pair went all the way to Bognor, with the other terminating at Horsham, as you infer from #21. Does that sound right? Thus, perhaps, these two services could be seen as the direct anticedents of the xx00 Bognor/xx32 Horsham "Rapid City Link" services of the early 80s.

The half-hourly service to remote Amberley in 1963 is certainly notable. By 1985, as discussed above, Amberley had (thankfully temporarily) degraded to an irregular service with 2 or 3 hour gaps in the off-peak.

I'd guess another 1967 change would be the introduction of a regular hourly service to Littlehampton via Hove, and to Ore - as there were gaps, particularly in the middle of the day, in 1962/63. An odd pattern that, "clockface with gaps".

Would be interesting to see the full pattern of a representative year between 1967 and 1978. Maybe there were further tweaks around 1970 or so when the CIGs and VEPs presumably took over everything?

 

[Taunton]

The Gatwick 15 minute service started, I understand,with the opening of the airport in 1958. Initially I believe it employed the small batch of "post-war" units, mechanically and designated 2-HAL, but with post-war SUB steel bodywork, which were bought by the Southern Railway right at the end of its existence with government war compensation money for the same number of BIL/HAL 2-car units which had been destroyed in the war. It would seem that by the time of this document in 1962 the two car portions had already expanded to four.

 

[nw1]

The Gatwick 15 minute service started, I understand,with the opening of the airport in 1958. Initially I believe it employed the small batch of "post-war" units, mechanically and designated 2-HAL, but with post-war SUB steel bodywork, which were bought by the Southern Railway right at the end of its existence with government war compensation money for the same number of BIL/HAL 2-car units which had been destroyed in the war. It would seem that by the time of this document in 1962 the two car portions had already expanded to four.

Also the shuttle at xx21/xx51 in 1962 appeared to be 4BIL, though it did not run during the peaks. It's not clear from the Victoria CWN what happened to the units in the peak, as the last inward working is at 1534, which forms the 1551 out - there were no inbound Gatwick shuttles in the peak either so presumably the units went elsewhere after arrival at Gatwick in the afternoon shoulder-peak. The 1963 timetable provides no clues in this respect either. As stated above, in 1963 it seemed to reduce to Fridays only, presumably lack of demand.

I'd hazard a guess that they went ECS to London Bridge, perhaps as 8-car formations (to cut the number of required ECS moves), but who knows?

Interesting to see though that there was cause for such a regular airport service in the early 60s (or even late 50s) in a period when presumably not so many people were flying!

 

[Taunton]

The Brighton semi-fasts and stoppers were generally a mixture of LAVs and BILs, and generally interworked at Victoria, with some exceptions.

I believe the LAVs had an earlier type of control gear, and were only mu-compatible with the first dozen or so of the BILs, thereafter a later design (themselves not compatible with these pioneer 12) covered the main BIL fleet and the HALs. I did see another document which said in Southern CWNs there were far too many BILs and too few HALs shown as such, and the majority of the latter worked on BIL diagrams, apart from a few (like these Gatwick shuttle units) which had to be of this type.

 

[30907]

Ah, ok - thanks - somehow I missed that one!

Thinking about it (which involves thinking back to 1987, which is when I obtained that 1972 timetable - sadly haven't had it now for years!) I seem to remember only one of the xx06 / xx36 pair went all the way to Bognor, with the other terminating at Horsham, as you infer from #21. Does that sound right?

Yes.

Thus, perhaps, these two services could be seen as the direct anticedents of the xx00 Bognor/xx32 Horsham "Rapid City Link" services of the early 80s.

The half-hourly service to remote Amberley in 1963 is certainly notable. By 1985, as discussed above, Amberley had (thankfully temporarily) degraded to an irregular service with 2 or 3 hour gaps in the off-peak.

The SR routinely provided a very generous half-hourly service to quite minor stations as part of its 30s schemes. The (Victoria-)Gillingham/Maidstone scheme was the first with only an hourly service.

I'd guess another 1967 change would be the introduction of a regular hourly service to Littlehampton via Hove, and to Ore - as there were gaps, particularly in the middle of the day, in 1962/63. An odd pattern that, "clockface with gaps".

ISTR that was a post-1945 feature, the missing trains being reintroduced gradually over some 15 years. Shortage of staff, stock and passengers may all have been reasons (sounds familiar?).

 

[nw1]

I believe the LAVs had an earlier type of control gear, and were only mu-compatible with the first dozen or so of the BILs, thereafter a later design (themselves not compatible with these pioneer 12) covered the main BIL fleet and the HALs. I did see another document which said in Southern CWNs there were far too many BILs and too few HALs shown as such, and the majority of the latter worked on BIL diagrams, apart from a few (like these Gatwick shuttle units) which had to be of this type.

Yes, the Victoria CWN only seems to show HALs on those Gatwick services, the rest are BILs.

Same, I think, happened with CEPs during their days on SWT. In a previous post it was suggested, I think, that CEPs were employed on CIG diagrams rather than having their own, and the early 2004 CWNs as well as my own observations seem to confirm that.

Yes.

OK thanks for that.

ISTR that was a post-1945 feature, the missing trains being reintroduced gradually over some 15 years. Shortage of staff, stock and passengers may all have been reasons (sounds familiar?).

Indeed!

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Pre Selhurst triangle re-modelling my recollection, dim though it is, was that between East Croydon and Coulsdon North the slow lines were technically on the west side. In the peak Coulsdon North trains used them and trains coming from further south seemed to be randomly spread across all four lines.

By this point the off peak trains at Purley Oaks were only from Caterham and Tattenham Corner and so used the original South Eastern Railway tracks to the east and only went to London Bridge (off peak Charing Cross).

Thus platforms 1 and 2 at Purley Oaks were only used in the peak.

 

[nw1]

Another bit of potentially interesting info (sorry if it's a bit late): the full 1967 EMU CWN for the South Western Division is available on the "brcoachingstock" group on groups.io. Regarding services out of Victoria, it reveals that by summer 1967 the Victoria-Portsmouth (presumably still via Dorking) left at xx02 (so changed from the xx18 of four years earlier) and was operated by CEPs, which was quite a surprise to me.

Until I saw this, if asked the question "When did CEPs first appear as booked traction on services in Hampshire", I would have only been about 30 years out!

 

[30907]

The 1962 CWN linked at #43 already has a few CEP/BEP workings, including IIRC to Portsmouth/Bognor. The SE had too many of them even then because of the decline in Continental traffic, even more so by 1967.

The Mid Sussex was the only Central route with COR/BUF stock so it was logical to replace it - Bloodandcustard.org almost certainly has the detail.

 

[Taunton]

The 1962 CWN linked at #43 already has a few CEP/BEP workings, including IIRC to Portsmouth/Bognor. The SE had too many of them even then because of the decline in Continental traffic, even more so by 1967.

The Mid Sussex was the only Central route with COR/BUF stock so it was logical to replace it - Bloodandcustard.org almost certainly has the detail.

My recollection is the opposite, that the mid-Sussex got the first CEP units even before Kent got any of the rest, and before the Kent electrification. There was a small pre-production build of them, which stayed at Selhurst long term. We visited Chichester in summer 1966 and later, always went up to Victoria, and it was always these, which seemed not really used elsewhere on the Central. The sets divided at Barnham, the BIG buffet unit went to Bognor, the CEP to Portsmouth, and the Bognor unit returned to rejoin at Barnham again one hour before the Portsmouth unit, so the whole service had to run with the same type of stock.

 

[nw1]

The 1962 CWN linked at #43 already has a few CEP/BEP workings, including IIRC to Portsmouth/Bognor. The SE had too many of them even then because of the decline in Continental traffic, even more so by 1967.

Yes I noticed that (and posted to that effect above) but ISTR they were Brighton and Eastbourne - didn't spot any Portsmouth/Bognor. But conceivable I missed them