Historical Sleeper Routes

[181]

Up into the 1980s there were a number of overnight trains on Friday into Saturday nights from ‘north of Birmingham’ to Devon and Cornwall, particularly Paignton and Newquay. They used to arrive at their destinations fairly early in the morning, after which the coaches were cleaned and watered and used for a northbound working. North of Exeter the Friday to Saturday night shift was busier than the rest of the week’s night shifts. The coaches were all Mark 1 seated ones.

Sme of them lasted into the 1990s -- in 1996 or 1997 (or both) I was at Bristol TM around 05.00 on a summer Saturday (unfortunately the West Country to Scotland overnight train had ceased by then, but leaving that early got me to Glasow in time for the lunchtime train up the West Highland line), and there was one of those trains having a lengthy layover in another platform. I don't think it was Mk 1s by then, though -- probably air-conditioned Mk 2s like the other loco-hauled cross-country trains, although I can't remember for sure.

 

[IanH440]

I can remember late 70s early 80s working in the West End (London) and travelling after the show on the Barrow sleeper as far as Lancaster and then catching a DMU ( with the mail) to Windermere to be met by Parents ....

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Amazing to consider there were Euston to Manchester and Liverpool sleepers back in the day - a very good friend who was Assistant Station Manager at Crewe tells me some error one night caused the Manchester sleeper to be sent to Lime Street - no real problem as some quick and no doubt terse phone calls ensured a bit of shunting and a special to Manchester arranged - ......certain people had a "no tea and biscuits" interview when next taking duty.

Probably very few passengers on board anyway..

 

[Magdalia]

Does anyone remember the KX - Leeds sleepers? It was 1983 when I accompanied my boss on this service who had a speaking engagement in Harrogate. IIRC the train reached Leeds around 04.30, but you didn't have to vacate your berth until 07.00 or thereabouts. Consequently a peaceful few hours of sleep! Others with timetables may be able to be more precise.

I also travelled on it, usually in the seats but once in the sleeper. It was a handy way to go north for away football matches. Booked arrival at Leeds was 0505.

As I recall the Leeds sleeper was a portion of the Newcastle via the Durham Coast service, which I think finished in about 1983 and was the last Mark 1 sleeper service on the East Coast Main Line.

In the 1982-1983 public timetable the northbound Leeds sleeper is shown as running until 4 October; it included a seating portion that continued to Bradford Exchange. The train started at 01.00, except on Saturday night into Sunday when it started late on Saturday.

These are not correct. The Kings Cross-Leeds sleepers were conveyed in 0110 Kings Cross-Leeds which was primarily a newspaper train. Saturday nights were different because the distribution of the Sunday papers was different.

The train usually departed from platform 8 at Kings Cross for ease of loading of the newspapers, and the train had 3 portions. At the front was 5 vehicles for Leeds, a TSO for seated passengers, 2 sleepers and 2 vans. The middle portion was 5 vans that were detached at Peterborough and went forward as 0307 to Grimsby. A single van on the rear was also detached at Peterborough and unloaded there with papers for Kings Lynn that went forward by road.

There was a separate 2300 from Kings Cross which conveyed seating accommodation and it was this train that ran through to Bradford.

It was only on Saturday nights that the Bradford searing coaches and the Leeds sleepers were conveyed in the same train, departing Kings Cross at 2335. I don't know how Lincolnshire got its Sunday papers but Kings Lynn had its own news train from Liverpool Street on Sunday mornings only.

The seating coach on the 0110 Kings Cross-Leeds finished in October 1982 but the sleeping cars were conveyed through the following winter, finishing in May 1983. They were MarkIs to the end.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Amazing to consider there were Euston to Manchester and Liverpool sleepers back in the day - a very good friend who was Assistant Station Manager at Crewe tells me some error one night caused the Manchester sleeper to be sent to Lime Street - no real problem as some quick and no doubt terse phone calls ensured a bit of shunting and a special to Manchester arranged - ......certain people had a "no tea and biscuits" interview when next taking duty.

Probably very few passengers on board anyway..

Both Manchester and Liverpool sleepers were well used. Bear in mind in the 80's the last daytime train from Euston was I think 20.00 to Manchester and slightly later to Liverpool although there was a second 'overnight' train ahead of the sleeper which reached both northern cities around 02.30. Both this and the Sleeper normally spit at Stafford.

 

[Gloster]

These are not correct. The Kings Cross-Leeds sleepers were conveyed in 0110 Kings Cross-Leeds which was primarily a newspaper train. Saturday nights were different because the distribution of the Sunday papers was different.

That is, as I wrote, what was in the public timetable. I suspect that the earlier public departure was to avoid delays to a Newspaper train: there were penalty payments if the News was late, so it was best to give a buffer to avoid delays caused by last minute idiot passengers. You may also be able to get it away early if loading is finished in time. The Yeovil News, which also carried passengers, had a similar earlier public departure time.

 

[Taunton]

Up into the 1980s there were a number of overnight trains on Friday into Saturday nights from ‘north of Birmingham’ to Devon and Cornwall, particularly Paignton and Newquay. They used to arrive at their destinations fairly early in the morning, after which the coaches were cleaned and watered and used for a northbound working. North of Exeter the Friday to Saturday night shift was busier than the rest of the week’s night shifts. The coaches were all Mark 1 seated ones.

These trains were a mixed blessing for the West Country resorts when they arrived, often due at about 7am they not uncommonly arrived early (of course, on other occasions very late), which was really before the town had woken up on a Saturday. Guest Houses did not welcome them before lunchtime as they were still dispatching the previous week's guests and had not yet prepared the rooms. The passengers might go to the beach, but if it was raining it was a calamity - all the cafes would be full with nobody keen to leave, large numbers might go and sit in the church, and fall asleep in the pews.

On Taunton to Exeter there may have been more passenger services westbound on Friday nights, but in those older times the line was always busiest at night because this is when the majority of the freight went down. There were normally two night bankers at Wellington which pushed freights up to Whiteball. The Taunton avoiding line was, by 1960, closed from lunchtime to mid-evening, its signalboxes were only two shifts, but had a succession of freight trains through the night. But they didn't run overnight on Fridays.

 

[Magdalia]

That is, as I wrote, what was in the public timetable. I suspect that the earlier public departure was to avoid delays to a Newspaper train: there were penalty payments if the News was late, so it was best to give a buffer to avoid delays caused by last minute idiot passengers. You may also be able to get it away early if loading is finished in time. The Yeovil News, which also carried passengers, had a similar earlier public departure time.

My 1982-83 public timetable has the departure advertised at 0110.

The October 1982 Kings Cross Suburban WTT, also in my library, also gives the departure time as 0110.

I also travelled on the train from Kings Cross quite a few times.

 

[Gloster]

My 1982-83 public timetable has the departure advertised at 0110.

The October 1982 Kings Cross Suburban WTT, also in my library, also gives the departure time as 0110.

I also travelled on the train from Kings Cross quite a few times.

You are right. My sight must be getting worse.

 

[Magdalia]

You are right. My sight must be getting worse.

1982-83 was the first small format all line timetable and I agree it is not an easy read.

 

[Bill57p9]

Sme of them lasted into the 1990s -- in 1996 or 1997 (or both) I was at Bristol TM around 05.00 on a summer Saturday (unfortunately the West Country to Scotland overnight train had ceased by then, but leaving that early got me to Glasow in time for the lunchtime train up the West Highland line), and there was one of those trains having a lengthy layover in another platform. I don't think it was Mk 1s by then, though -- probably air-conditioned Mk 2s like the other loco-hauled cross-country trains, although I can't remember for sure.

I remember catching one from York (it had come from Edinburgh) to Plymouth via Paignton in 1994 or 1995. It was a HST.
I paid a princely £5 for a weekend first upgrade: money very well spent!

 

[John Palmer]

I have never previously seen any reference to the train being combined at Cowlairs. This would involve time consuming shunting as the portion from Kings Cross was marshalled between the Queen St to Fort William parcels van (BGZ or later PMV) which, at least in the 50s, 60's and 70s, was marshalled next to the loco, and the Glasgow to Mallaig portion which was on the rear.

It was of course possible to travel from Kings X etc. to Mallaig by changing within the train en route before the sleepers and seated coach from London were detached at Fort William.

During the summer months in the 60's and on Saturday mornings in the 70's the KX to FW portion ran independently throughout from Edinburgh to Fort William whilst in the winter months (and summer SX in the 70s) normal practice was, as reflected in Marshalling books of that era, for the KX to FW portion to run from Edinburgh into Queen St and then attach to the then 05.45 and later 06.00 departure with the parcels van next to the loco and the Mallaig coaches on the rear.

There were occasions such as summer Saturdays when the southbound KX portion was detached at Cowlairs after the train had called at Queen St Low Level (due to being to long for High Level), and in later years the once the service had transferred to Euston it became the practice to detach that portion was at Cowlairs although northbound it continued to run via Queen St (High Level).

The bypassing of Queen Street and combining of the Glasgow-Mallaig carriages with the sleeper portion at Cowlairs is covered at page 16 of John McGregor's book. He makes specific mention of the Kings Cross-Fort William composite brake being formed ahead of the two sleeping cars, and the Glasgow-Mallaig carriages being marshalled behind the sleepers. This had the consequence that bleary travellers in the BCK were unable to avail themselves of the catering facilities that had come up from Queen Street until the train was past Garelochhead, due to passage through the intervening sleepers being barred until then. This pattern of operation dated from before the Second World War, as confirmed by Barnard Way's corresponding account that “the Fort William coaches don't go down to Queen Street.”

I don't doubt that in later years the sleepers descended into Queen Street – in fact that's likely to have been the pattern when I first made the trip in the 1980s. Since then there seem to have been a succession of changes, and I recall a return by sleeper from the Fort to London via Yoker, Central LL, Rutherglen and Central HL followed by sundry to-ings and fro-ings over the Clyde to combine three sleeper portions into a single train (one I think originated from Stranraer). Such were the complexities that the shunter rather lost the plot to the extent that the train departed Glasgow with a tail lamp midway down the train.

We seem to have come full circle in that division/combination of the various Scottish sleeper portions once again takes place at Waverley.

 

[Springs Branch]

I can remember late 70s early 80s working in the West End (London) and travelling after the show on the Barrow sleeper as far as Lancaster ....

Both Manchester and Liverpool sleepers were well used. Bear in mind in the 80's the last daytime train from Euston was I think 20.00 to Manchester and slightly later to Liverpool. . .

The Sleeper trains to/from Barrow-in-Furness sometimes seem to have a connotation of being there mainly for the benefit of Royal Navy top brass and MoD boffins who needed to visit defence facilities in north-west England. No doubt 'the beds' did serve this purpose, but I believe these were also much more useful "multi-functional" trains.

They also provided late-evening departure / very early-morning arrival London services for substantial Lancashire settlements like Warrington, Wigan and Preston - in an era when the last northbound 'daytime' Inter-City departure to these places was around the 19:00 mark, and you were hard-pressed to arrive into Euston significantly before 10:00 in the morning.

On the Barrow trains you could leave Euston at 23:45, arriving in South Lancashire around the 02:45 to 03:30 window. Conversely, you had an option to depart southbound from Wigan or Warrington around pub closing time 22:45 to 23:15-ish and get into Euston in the wee hours of the morning, if that's what you needed to do.

I almost used the up train once (on the cushions) from Wigan, but a last-minute change of plan meant I missed this dubious pleasure on that occasion - and the next time I had to consider this, the Sleeper was no more.

The Down Sleeper also called at the main Furness line stations around 05:00 to 05:30, with old WTTs showing leisurely dwell times at places like Lancaster, Carnforth, Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston. Presumably this was to unload London newspapers, mail and maybe parcels. I wouldn't be surprised if the train was marshalled with more vans than passenger carriages.


Do I remember correctly that, back in the day, there was usually a single Sleeping Car parked up all day in one of the bays at Preston, having been shunted off the previous night's Barrow train and awaiting re-attachment to the Up service later that evening?

Despite the shunting manoeuvre at Preston, for some (no doubt good operational) reason the Down train was booked to switch from electric to diesel traction at Lancaster. Just to add an extra bout of early morning clanking and banging of buffers to wake up Rear Admiral Melchett-Massingberd in his First Class sleeper.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The bypassing of Queen Street and combining of the Glasgow-Mallaig carriages with the sleeper portion at Cowlairs is covered at page 16 of John McGregor's book. He makes specific mention of the Kings Cross-Fort William composite brake being formed ahead of the two sleeping cars, and the Glasgow-Mallaig carriages being marshalled behind the sleepers. This had the consequence that bleary travellers in the BCK were unable to avail themselves of the catering facilities that had come up from Queen Street until the train was past Garelochhead, due to passage through the intervening sleepers being barred until then. This pattern of operation dated from before the Second World War, as confirmed by Barnard Way's corresponding account that “the Fort William coaches don't go down to Queen Street.”

Thanks for that, interesting to know although I still find it difficult to understand the logic behind it, perhaps timings were too tight to go down into Queen St back then.

Do I remember correctly that, back in the day, there was usually a single Sleeping Car parked up all day in one of the bays at Preston, having been shunted off the previous night's Barrow train and awaiting re-attachment to the Up service later that evening?

Your memory of the Preston Sleeping Car is correct.
Similarly Carlisle had two sleeping cars parked in a north end bay which attached to the rear/detached from the front of a Glasgow service.

 

[D6130]

The Sleeper trains to/from Barrow-in-Furness sometimes seem to have a connotation of being there mainly for the benefit of Royal Navy top brass and MoD boffins who needed to visit defence facilities in north-west England. No doubt 'the

Back in the day (1960s/70s/80s) you could be forgiven for thinking that the Fort William sleeper served a similar function for naval officers travelling to and from the Clyde Submarine Base at Faslane.... judging by the larges numbers of such personages joining and alighting at Helensburgh Upper and Garelochhead.

 

[Rescars]

In regard to Scottish sleeper services, does anyone know when the last Stranraer services ran? I recall travelling on one from Girvan to Euston, probably late 1982. It was a particularly memorable trip because the belt failed on the dynamo, so in the morning there were no lights, tea, coffee or hot water. Instead of the normal tea tray, the conductor gave me my wake up call by shining a torch in my face!

 

[pitdiver]

Thanks guys regarding the overnight trains Chesterfield to Paington. Can anybody point me in the direction of a timetable for that service
TIA.

 

[Magdalia]

In regard to Scottish sleeper services, does anyone know when the last Stranraer services ran?

May 1990.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Thanks guys regarding the overnight trains Chesterfield to Paington. Can anybody point me in the direction of a timetable for that service
TIA.

Try timetable world, various 1960s Regional timetables there.

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

 

[Rescars]

May 1990.

Many thanks for this.

 

[Davester50]

The bypassing of Queen Street and combining of the Glasgow-Mallaig carriages with the sleeper portion at Cowlairs is covered at page 16 of John McGregor's book. He makes specific mention of the Kings Cross-Fort William composite brake being formed ahead of the two sleeping cars, and the Glasgow-Mallaig carriages being marshalled behind the sleepers. This had the consequence that bleary travellers in the BCK were unable to avail themselves of the catering facilities that had come up from Queen Street until the train was past Garelochhead, due to passage through the intervening sleepers being barred until then. This pattern of operation dated from before the Second World War, as confirmed by Barnard Way's corresponding account that “the Fort William coaches don't go down to Queen Street.”

I don't doubt that in later years the sleepers descended into Queen Street – in fact that's likely to have been the pattern when I first made the trip in the 1980s. Since then there seem to have been a succession of changes, and I recall a return by sleeper from the Fort to London via Yoker, Central LL, Rutherglen and Central HL followed by sundry to-ings and fro-ings over the Clyde to combine three sleeper portions into a single train (one I think originated from Stranraer). Such were the complexities that the shunter rather lost the plot to the extent that the train departed Glasgow with a tail lamp midway down the train.

We seem to have come full circle in that division/combination of the various Scottish sleeper portions once again takes place at Waverley.

Goodness yes, I remember the wait outside Cowlairs with no loco attached and it was perishing cold!
We did end up in Queen Street before heading off to Fort William.

 

[DarloRich]

A question about ECML sleepers: I recall my late father using sleeper trains a couple of times from Darlington to Kings Cross and back in the early to mid 1980's. Does anyone know the timings of such trains?

I don't believe I will have seen him off so to speak as the London bound sleeper must have been around midnight and the northbound sleeper must have arrived into Darlo at stupid o'clock in the am!

( He always said it was an interesting crowd: Politicians, senior business types, the odd army/RAF officer and professionals like him - later they all just flew from Teesside or Newcastle to Heathrow!)

 

[Gloster]

A question about ECML sleepers: I recall my late father using sleeper trains a couple of times from Darlington to Kings Cross and back in the early to mid 1980's. Does anyone know the timings of such trains?

I don't believe I will have seen him off so to speak as the London bound sleeper must have been around midnight and the northbound sleeper must have arrived into Darlo at stupid o'clock in the am!

( He always said it was an interesting crowd: Politicians, senior business types, the odd army/RAF officer and professionals like him - later they all just flew from Teesside or Newcastle to Heathrow!)

From the 1982-1983 public timetable:

Southbound depart Darlington 00.28, arrive King’s Cross 03.59. Stay in berth until 07.30.
Northbound depart King’s Cross 01.55, arrive 05.30.

It looks as if until 3 October the northbound train detached sleeping cars at Darlington and you could stay in them until 06.45. Southbound it looks like simply joining the train when it arrived.

 

[DarloRich]

From the 1982-1983 public timetable:

Southbound depart Darlington 00.28, arrive King’s Cross 03.59. Stay in berth until 07.30.
Northbound depart King’s Cross 01.55, arrive 05.30.

It looks as if until 3 October the northbound train detached sleeping cars at Darlington and you could stay in them until 06.45. Southbound it looks like simply joining the train when it arrived.

thanks!

As for the detaching cars - were they the ones that went round the coast line?

As for the main service - assume traction was anything available from classes 55/47/46/40

 

[Gloster]

thanks!

As for the detaching cars - were they the ones that went round the coast line?

As for the main service - assume traction was anything available from classes 55/47/46/40

No, I think the sleepers round the coast had already ceased, but when it was still running that was probably the same train. No idea about traction, although I wouldn’t have thought the 46 were that common.

 

[D6130]

As for the detaching cars - were they the ones that went round the coast line?

Yes....booked for haulage by a Gateshead ETH 31/4 latterly. 31 418 was a regular performer.

 

[DarloRich]

No, I think the sleepers round the coast had already ceased, but when it was still running that was probably the same train. No idea about traction, although I wouldn’t have thought the 46 were that common.

Got you - thanks - Assume the sleepers were shunted off the rear of the main train and moved to one of the bays with the empties worked back to Newcastle? ( once the train via the coast had been deleted)

Yes....booked for haulage by a Gateshead ETH 31/4 latterly. 31 418 was a regular performer.

Thanks! must have been an interesting little journey - could there have been many takers for Stockton, Hartlepooh and Sunderland? ( i assume it doubled as a parcels service)

There were two cars berthed in a bay platform at Darlington and you could board from 22:00 onward, if I remember.

thanks - were the sleeping cars in the north bound or southbound bays? Just trying to figure out the shunting plan!

 

[D6130]

Thanks! must have been an interesting little journey - could there have been many takers for Stockton, Hartlepooh and Sunderland? ( i assume it doubled as a parcels service)

The one time I remember seeing my father off at Stockton, I think it was only four coaches....a first class sleeper, a second class sleeper, a Mark 1 SK or CK and a full brake. Don't remember any parcels or mail being loaded there. Maybe the van was just provided for the guard to ride in....but I may have been mistaken, as it was well over forty years ago!

Hartlepooh

Freudian slip?

 

[DarloRich]

The one time I remember seeing my father off at Stockton, I think it was only four coaches....a first class sleeper, a second class sleeper, a Mark 1 SK or CK and a full brake. Don't remember any parcels or mail being loaded there. Maybe the van was just provided for the guard to ride in....but I may have been mistaken, as it was well over forty years ago!

amazing that such a service ran for so long - it cant have been a commercial success!

 

[pitdiver]

Try timetable world, various 1960s Regional timetables there.

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

Did regional railways exist in the 1960s. If not what region would have covered the service I am interested in and possibly what table number would that be shown in?