History of High Speed 1

[Jorge Da Silva]

So there are several things I would like to know about during the period until HS1 was opened.

1. What stock was originally planned during the planning of HS1?
2. What route was originally planned for HS1?
   1. Any documents?
3. What services were planned that did not materialise?
4. Was St Pancras ever meant to be designed differently?

All about the history and planning of HS1

 

[30907]

You could do worse than read Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_1

On your Q1/3:
the North of London Eurostars and Sleepers (which would also have run from the SW/Wales were built and never used as planned.
Remember that the Tunnel opened nearly 10 years before HS1.

 

[Bald Rick]

1) Eurostars and an unspecified model of domestic high speed train

2) lots of different ones. Officially, 4 routes through Kent, and all underground in SE London via tunnel to a new sub surface station, shared with Thameslink, roughly under where the Kings Cross concourse is now. Direct links to ECML / WCML. I’ve never been able to understand how it got past all the tube lines, but there you go. Then the route via Essex, which was eventually built. Also a couple of unofficial proposals, including one called RACHEL which was a tunnel all the way from London to the coast. RACHEL was a particularly cheesy acronym!

3) the London to ‘further into Europe’ sleepers, and the North of London Eurostars, plus the regional city sleepers to Paris / Brussels.

4) once the route via Essex was decided, and St Pancras selected, the plan for St P was largely unchanged.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I've seen claims in the past that HS1 was being discussed, as the New Kent Main Line, quite independently of the need for a Channel Tunnel link. The idea there was to relieve the existing lines into London from Kent, and to send some of the passengers from south of the Thames into the less crowded northern termini. For some reason I have it in my mind that Liverpool Street was considered as a terminus for the New Kent Main Line before Continental services were added in.

That seems to make sense with the reported plans to run Networker-derived Class 342 EMUs on the line; I have a hard time imagining a 140mph Networker, but if the domestic part of the scheme originated as a 100mph route then that makes rather more sense.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BR did have a north-south cross-London route in planning, as well as east-west (Crossrail), making the system much like the Paris RER lines A and B.
But the north-south route morphed into Thameslink at a much lower cost (and quicker to make operational), mainly because of GLC preference.

There was also the BR scheme linked to the 1975 Channel Tunnel project which would have taken trains from the Tonbridge-Redhill line under the North Downs to emerge north of Croydon.
BR Southern didn't want any of the tunnel traffic on its system.
But this project (and the then CT project) was scrapped by Labour as unaffordable (unlike Concorde).
BR also had various schemes to bring 1990s channel tunnel traffic into London but the Conservative government chose to upgrade existing lines instead.
That gave us Waterloo International, the Battersea curve and North Pole depot, plus electrification of Tonbridge-Redhill and the WLL.
The decision to take HS1 into St Pancras from the Medway was a central government one based on regeneration of east London, and was not at all welcomed in rail circles.
But it hasn't turned out at all badly, though it has taken the best part of a decade to bring Waterloo and North Pole back into productive use for the domestic railway.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

BR did have a north-south cross-London route in planning, as well as east-west (Crossrail), making the system much like the Paris RER lines A and B.
But the north-south route morphed into Thameslink at a much lower cost (and quicker to make operational), mainly because of GLC preference.

There was also the BR scheme linked to the 1975 Channel Tunnel project which would have taken trains from the Tonbridge-Redhill line under the North Downs to emerge north of Croydon.
BR Southern didn't want any of the tunnel traffic on its system.
But this project (and the then CT project) was scrapped by Labour as unaffordable (unlike Concorde).
BR also had various schemes to bring 1990s channel tunnel traffic into London but the Conservative government chose to upgrade existing lines instead.
That gave us Waterloo International, the Battersea curve and North Pole depot, plus electrification of Tonbridge-Redhill and the WLL.
The decision to take HS1 into St Pancras from the Medway was a central government one based on regeneration of east London, and was not at all welcomed in rail circles.
But it hasn't turned out at all badly, though it has taken the best part of a decade to bring Waterloo and North Pole back into productive use for the domestic railway.

Very interesting! There has been a lot of ‘changes’ by politicians and parties.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I've seen claims in the past that HS1 was being discussed, as the New Kent Main Line, quite independently of the need for a Channel Tunnel link. The idea there was to relieve the existing lines into London from Kent, and to send some of the passengers from south of the Thames into the less crowded northern termini. For some reason I have it in my mind that Liverpool Street was considered as a terminus for the New Kent Main Line before Continental services were added in.

That seems to make sense with the reported plans to run Networker-derived Class 342 EMUs on the line; I have a hard time imagining a 140mph Networker, but if the domestic part of the scheme originated as a 100mph route then that makes rather more sense.

The New Kent Main Line? That sounds interesting. So was that a classic line and not a high speed line as it later came to be

 

[LLivery]

I'm sure I read a while ago that HS1 was supposed to be named the Continental Main Line. Is there any truth to that?

 

[ptreanor]

As far as I can recollect, the term Continental Main Line was only used to describe those lines in the Dollands Moor area that led to / from the Eurotunnel area. HS1 has always been the CTRL.

 

[RichJF]

I believe there was a plan in the 70s to tunnel under the Kings Cross area from the South & have the Eurostar terminate underground in the vicinity of the Kings Cross Thameslink area.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is informative on part of the topic
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7082392.stm

I recall going to a political party conference in about 1990 or '91, and BR (pretty sure it was BR before 'union railways' or whatever as set up, but it may have been at the time they WERE set up to progress all this, and they were promoting the vision at events like party conferences) had a stand there to promote their plans for the new line and terminus. This was IIRC, complete with a model of the site I feel sure, and plenty of graphic images about how it would change, and brochures about the plans.

Memory of the detail starts to fade but I'm pretty sure this involved new low level platforms in the area between KX and St P for Continental trains. What I do recall was that it involved the demolition of the Great Northern Hotel to make space for this, which I thought was a great shame and made that view clear to the people staffing the stand. No doubt I was told there was little alternative etc etc.

So when final plans eventually came through I was pleased to see that the GN hotel would be retained, and I think of this whenever I pass by the building.

In fact, having just looked up the GN Hotel room rates I wonder if I recounted this story to the hotel management they will reward me with a regular free stay?

After all, it was presumably my berating the staff on the stall for their plans to demolish this nice old GNR railway hotel that swung the decision to keep it?

PS - my name isn't Heseltine (or Prescott)....

 

[WesternLancer]

from that BBC link - if the Parliamentary Bill went forward it is probably easy enough to find it on line on the Hansard type archives, that would probably have more details of the route maybe:

"John Prideaux was the first head of Union Railways, set up by British Rail to push through the Channel Tunnel rail link.

The alternative to St Pancras would have stretched under the main King's Cross building, the carriage entrance on its north-west side, and a gasworks to the north, he says.

It would have been very big because of the length of the Eurostar trains.

It would have involved excavation under listed buildings, under a medieval fever and smallpox hospital and the gasworks, creating huge constructional and pollution problems.

Nevertheless, its rejection was not inevitable, says Mr Prideaux. A bill providing for the south-east London-King's Cross plan had been before Parliament for more than three years.

British Rail executives had been making a case for the route for five years, and buying property in preparation for the King's Cross route."

 

[Taunton]

The decision to take HS1 into St Pancras from the Medway was a central government one based on regeneration of east London, and was not at all welcomed in rail circles.

I don't think it can really be said to be part of a government plan to regenerate East London, and in the end of course the Channel Tunnel traffic has done nothing at all for the area. The mayor of Newham borough lobbied extensively for a Channel Tunnel train stop at Stratford, in the end of course this was just done as a shell but no more, Eurostar themselves saying it would be completely unviable. The Kent train stops at Stratford are very thinly patronised, it would have been a useful place for connections onto the Central and Jubilee Underground lines if the HS1 station had not been built about 20 minutes away by any means, walking or waiting for the DLR, from the Underground station. I think just about every East London resident has no idea the line runs through and under the area.

We have discussed before the sheer amount of CTRL infrastructure (and rolling stock) which in its short life has been abandoned or never used. Is there any regular freight on the line, and in the freight loops? Did any regular Tunnel traffic ever run over the electrified Redhill-Tonbridge line?

 

[Joe Paxton]

I don't think it can really be said to be part of a government plan to regenerate East London, and in the end of course the Channel Tunnel traffic has done nothing at all for the area. The mayor of Newham borough lobbied extensively for a Channel Tunnel train stop at Stratford, in the end of course this was just done as a shell but no more, Eurostar themselves saying it would be completely unviable. The Kent train stops at Stratford are very thinly patronised, it would have been a useful place for connections onto the Central and Jubilee Underground lines if the HS1 station had not been built about 20 minutes away by any means, walking or waiting for the DLR, from the Underground station. I think just about every East London resident has no idea the line runs through and under the area. ...

Sorry but that's just not true.

The idea of Stratford International station definitely was about regeneration, and was linked to plans for a new shopping centre development on railway lands.

The concept of "CTRL Domestic Services" (the phrase used) existed early on in the planning of the line.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry but that's just not true.

The idea of Stratford International station definitely was about regeneration, and was linked to plans for a new shopping centre development on railway lands.

Indeed. I use the service to Stratford, at all times of day, and it is hardly ‘thinly patronised’. Indeed it has almost exactly the same number of passengers as Exeter St David’s. And rather more than Taunton.

It’s also not 20 minutes from the international station to the regional station. I routinely do it, Jubilee platform to HS1 platform, in 6 minutes.

 

[Taunton]

It’s also not 20 minutes from the international station to the regional station. I routinely do it, Jubilee platform to HS1 platform, in 6 minutes.

I'll do you a challenge on that. But you mustn't bring your roller skates this time!

 

[Bald Rick]

I'll do you a challenge on that. But you mustn't bring your roller skates this time!

I’ll time it next time!

 

[Taunton]

I’ll time it next time!

We're going shopping there this weekend. While the family are squandering our income ( ) I'll go and clock it myself.

 

[Bald Rick]

We're going shopping there this weekend. While the family are squandering our income ( ) I'll go and clock it myself.

Oh you don’t go through Westfield, too many people (and ice cream temptations). Jubilee line, Westfield exit, past the bus station, turn left down the service road, and in the back entrance. About 600metres and never anyone in the way.

 

[S-Car-Go]

Here's a great article on the King's Cross International station, artists impressions, drawings, etc. I remember it being on the news when I was a kid in the '80s.

https://londonist.com/london/transport/kings-cross-station-eurostar-st-pancras

I believe there was a plan in the 70s to tunnel under the Kings Cross area from the South & have the Eurostar terminate underground in the vicinity of the Kings Cross Thameslink area.

 

[Taunton]

Oh you don’t go through Westfield, too many people (and ice cream temptations). Jubilee line, Westfield exit, past the bus station, turn left down the service road, and in the back entrance. About 600metres and never anyone in the way.

Which is what I did. Never stopped. Set off at 1302. Now I like to think I'm no slouch when it comes to activity (School cross-country colours, 1971 ), and only had limited time



International (entrance) at 1314, shot at moment of arrival, outside gateline. So 12 minutes if done at a good stride. Add one more down to the platform.



Couple of points. There appears to be no signage whatsoever within the main line station pointing to the international station. Presumably you are expected to take the DLR (although that's not explicitly signed as such either). The first such sign I noted is outside the Westfield gateline. And it points you through the shopping centre. And had I had luggage it would have taken a sight longer. Oh, by the way, it was raining (well, it is a bank holiday weekend).

Separately, I noted later the signage between the stations is notably lacking. In particular the sharp dogleg inside the shopping centre towards the international end has nothing at all. Although it seems envisaged as a walking route due to the couple of signs, anyone not familiar with things would be completely lost.

Meanwhile, I blame you for making me think of the ice cream on the "shorter" route (because I think in metres it's shorter than the outside route) back through the shopping centre


and the most bizarre of all at a stall a bit further along

this extraordinary model 0-6-4ST, clearly not designed by a mechanical engineer, just out on open display on the London tourist trinkets stall, among the plastic policemens' helmets and the supposed telephone boxes. I didn't ask how much it was.

 

[Bald Rick]

Everything is slower on a Sunday, right?

My 6 minutes looks optimistic, I’ll admit.

I’m not there for a while, but will time it when I’m there.

Hope the ice cream was good. There’s also a cookie dough stall which I have to avoid otherwise I would now be 20kg heavier.

 

[WesternLancer]

Here's a great article on the King's Cross International station, artists impressions, drawings, etc. I remember it being on the news when I was a kid in the '80s.

https://londonist.com/london/transport/kings-cross-station-eurostar-st-pancras

Thanks - useful link!

 

[RichJF]

We have discussed before the sheer amount of CTRL infrastructure (and rolling stock) which in its short life has been abandoned or never used. Is there any regular freight on the line, and in the freight loops? Did any regular Tunnel traffic ever run over the electrified Redhill-Tonbridge line?

AFAIK the Tonbridge line was not electrified to as extensive a degree as the other routes (Maidstone/Sevenoaks). I grew up near Nutfield & remember the line changing.
373s would have gauging issues at East Croydon/Clapham.
Class 92's would cause massive signal interference on the BML/Tonbridge line (same reason Networkers are banned on the same routes I think).
So we ended up with the local electric stoppers & through freight traffic being diesel-hauled over this stretch.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which is what I did. Never stopped. Set off at 1302. Now I like to think I'm no slouch when it comes to activity (School cross-country colours, 1971 ), and only had limited time

International (entrance) at 1314, shot at moment of arrival, outside gateline. So 12 minutes if done at a good stride. Add one more down to the platform.

Everything is slower on a Sunday, right?

My 6 minutes looks optimistic, I’ll admit.

I’m not there for a while, but will time it when I’m there.

I have just done it and am happy to admit that I was wrong with 6 minutes. Times as follows:

Stratford International platform - Jubilee Line platform: 5m55sec
Train to train: 7m02sec

I reckon I could have done it half a minute quicker had I not had a heavy backpack, with an umbrella up (in windy conditions) and had I walked at “got to get home quickly to avoid upsetting the wife” pace.

 

[BahrainLad]

Wasn’t the original plan for St Pancras to have a smaller arched roof as the extension, rather than the flat one we ended up with?

 

[BahrainLad]

Tucked away in the corner of the LT Museum Depot in Acton, I found this.

There’s also an interesting model of the Stratford area pre Olympics with the two different (St Pancras / KX Low Level) high speed routes marked across it.

Wasn’t the original plan for St Pancras to have a smaller arched roof as the extension, rather than the flat one we ended up with?

 

[BahrainLad]

The New Kent Main Line? That sounds interesting. So was that a classic line and not a high speed line as it later came to be

also at the LT Museum Depot, there was a model of a stretch of something called "the New Kent Main Line" through St Mary Cray. It looked to parallel an existing line with twin tracks electrified with 25 kv overhead.

 

[Journeyman]

It's worth bearing in mind that BR had enormous problems planning this line (let alone financing it) right from the start of when they were planning it in the seventies. Quite apart from the willingness of the French government to fund high-speed lines, it's worth remembering that northern France is quite sparsely populated and pretty economically run-down in places. This is, of course, almost the exact opposite of the parts of Kent the line had to traverse - lots of people, and quite a lot of money, with people in a lot of villages going absolutely ballistic about HS1 going anywhere near them.

It all made things extraordinarily complicated.

 

[S-Car-Go]

lots of people, and quite a lot of money, with people in a lot of villages going absolutely ballistic about HS1 going anywhere near them.

It all made things extraordinarily complicated.

There were a lot of NIMBY protests in Kent. The recent(ish) documentary on Channel 5 about the building of the channel tunnel did highlight the protests and reminded me of present-day UKIP & Farage cronies. I believe you can watch the programme on C5 catch-up/on-demand etc.