History of the Bidston-Wrexham line, and why it didn't become part of Merseyrail?

[Djgr]

With the loss of Browns in Chester, I think its lost some of its shopping appeal .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2025 ==

This may have been said but did the Wrexham to Bidston service extend to New Brighton at one point ?

When I worked in retail in the 1980s and 1990s, Chester had the second highest retail rents in the UK after London.

The development of Cheshire Oaks, Trafford Centre, out of town shopping near the Welsh border and the general renaissance of Liverpool (including Liverpool One) have all hit Chester city centre quite badly.

That said, with the exception of Llandudno, all the North Wales retail centres are struggling and there is probably some transfer from them into Chester for a shopping day out.

Indeed, the Bidston to Wrexham trains carried on to New Brighton. This was after the closure of the line to Seacombe in around 1960, which was its previous terminus. By the 1970s the journey onto New Brighton only happened on Sundays.

As an aside, I recently realised that the English say Bidston-Wrexham line and the Welsh Wrexham-Bidston!

 

[frodshamfella]

I always feel there is so much more potential with this line, if it was brought into Liverpool, or If the loop can't take another service, say half hourly, Perhaps it could terminate at James Street ? I believe there is an unused platform.
Having said that, the loop can't be as busy as many London Underground tubes so why not sending it round ?

 

[Sheridan]

I always feel there is so much more potential with this line, if it was brought into Liverpool, or If the loop can't take another service, say half hourly, Perhaps it could terminate at James Street ? I believe there is an unused platform.
Having said that, the loop can't be as busy as many London Underground tubes so why not sending it round ?

I think it boils down to the lack of rolling stock which is suitable for both the Liverpool Loop and Bidston-Wrexham.

 

[Krokodil]

This may have been said but did the Wrexham to Bidston service extend to New Brighton at one point ?

It did, but ran virtually empty on that section, hence why the service was diverted to Birkenhead.

 

[BeijingDave]

When I worked in retail in the 1980s and 1990s, Chester had the second highest retail rents in the UK after London.

The development of Cheshire Oaks, Trafford Centre, out of town shopping near the Welsh border and the general renaissance of Liverpool (including Liverpool One) have all hit Chester city centre quite badly.

The Trafford Centre, which is actually an easy journey down the M56 that many people from Cheshire do, had a marked negative impact on both Warrington and Chester's town centre shopping.

 

[Statto]

I always feel there is so much more potential with this line, if it was brought into Liverpool, or If the loop can't take another service, say half hourly, Perhaps it could terminate at James Street ? I believe there is an unused platform.
Having said that, the loop can't be as busy as many London Underground tubes so why not sending it round ?

The loop used to be a lot busier when it first opened, trains ran every 2 to 3 minutes on the loop in the peaks back then, the timetable was recast to the current frequencies in the mid 80s when the line was extended to Hooton, the loop can take another service, the loop has currently has about 14 trains an hour, think the loop can take 16 trains an hour.

 

[Djgr]

The loop used to be a lot busier when it first opened, trains ran every 2 to 3 minutes on the loop in the peaks back then, the timetable was recast to the current frequencies in the mid 80s when the line was extended to Hooton, the loop can take another service, the loop has currently has about 14 trains an hour, think the loop can take 16 trains an hour.

The Borderlands line is a real quandary.

For the Wirral stations a half hourly service is unlikely to be competitive.

There is already a lot of car traffic from mid and west Wirral to the likes of Hooton, Spital, Bromborough etc. to enjoy effectively a turn up and go service.

I can see using the "spare" platform at James Street leading to operational challenges and not being that popular-given the change required for Moorfields, Lime Street and Central. This change is much more involved than the current easy one at Bidston.

Finally a fair amount of the Welsh traffic is not heading towards Liverpool at all and all of this is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Northerngirl]

If the tfw Liverpool - Llandudno ever goes ahead I feel it would take some demand away at Shotton, but Neston & Heswall would still be in need of a better service, from personal experience I'd use it frequently, definitely faster than the bus and at a similar price (assuming the same ticket agreement as at Chester is used) long term more stations are needed, but i think right now running a half hourly 777/1 to Shotton as a trial should be aimed for

 

[frodshamfella]

The loop used to be a lot busier when it first opened, trains ran every 2 to 3 minutes on the loop in the peaks back then, the timetable was recast to the current frequencies in the mid 80s when the line was extended to Hooton, the loop can take another service, the loop has currently has about 14 trains an hour, think the loop can take 16 trains an hour.

So it's possible, bringing the Wrexham train into Liverpool City would encourage higher patronage.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

So it's possible, bringing the Wrexham train into Liverpool City would encourage higher patronage.

As was mentioned upthread, TfW and Welsh Government have taken to calling it the the Wrexham - Liverpool line and it is hoped to include it in the Mersyrail network using 777s. It's technically possible apparently, it's just a question of working out how much subsidy comes from either side of the border.

 

[frodshamfella]

As was mentioned upthread, TfW and Welsh Government have taken to calling it the the Wrexham - Liverpool line and it is hoped to include it in the Mersyrail network using 777s. It's technically possible apparently, it's just a question of working out how much subsidy comes from either side of the border.

Hope the powers that be get on with it then.

 

[Djgr]

Hope the powers that be get on with it then.

Well presumably we need more battery 777, which appear to be the flakiest of the bunch?

 

[TheSel]

Well presumably we need more battery 777, which appear to be the flakiest of the bunch?

Who is "we"?

Every time I ride on one, I see a notice that I (as a contributor to Liverpool City Region funding) own these trams. I certainly don't need more!

 

[John Luxton]

As was mentioned upthread, TfW and Welsh Government have taken to calling it the the Wrexham - Liverpool line and it is hoped to include it in the Mersyrail network using 777s. It's technically possible apparently, it's just a question of working out how much subsidy comes from either side of the border.

It appears that the 777100s only have a range of around 34 miles off the conductor rail - thus there would not be enough charge to do a round trip to Wrexham Central. Also would they be on the conductor long enough from Bidston round the loop and back to recharge?

 

[frodshamfella]

It appears that the 777100s only have a range of around 34 miles off the conductor rail - thus there would not be enough charge to do a round trip to Wrexham Central. Also would they be on the conductor long enough from Bidston round the loop and back to recharge?

Wouldn't they be picking up electric from the 3rd rail from Bidston onwards to Liverpool ?

 

[Prime586]

Wouldn't they be picking up electric from the 3rd rail from Bidston onwards to Liverpool ?

Yes, but the available current while on the third rail has to be split between powering the train and recharging the batteries. If it starts fully charged off the depot and does one trip round the loop, Bidston to Wrexham and back, I doubt the time on the third rail from Bidston around the loop and back would be enough to recharge the batteries to the level required to make a second return trip between Bidston and Wrexham.

 

[TheSel]

Yes, but the available current while on the third rail has to be split between powering the train and recharging the batteries. If it starts fully charged off the depot and does one trip round the loop, Bidston to Wrexham and back, I doubt the time on the third rail from Bidston around the loop and back would be enough to recharge the batteries to the level required to make a second return trip between Bidston and Wrexham.

... which could be solved by re-diagramming, so that a set from Wrexham/Shotton continues round the loop to another Wirral line terminus (West Kirby, Ellesmere Port, Chester or New Brighton), before forming a later Borderlands line trip. However, this would require intricate diagramming, would risk importing delays from one line onto another, and most importantly, would require far more battery-fitted sets (and associated type-familiarisation etc).

Essentially, you can't have everything - not with the present infrastructure constraints.

 

[Foxcover]

... which could be solved by re-diagramming, so that a set from Wrexham/Shotton continues round the loop to another Wirral line terminus (West Kirby, Ellesmere Port, Chester or New Brighton), before forming a later Borderlands line trip. However, this would require intricate diagramming, would risk importing delays from one line onto another, and most importantly, would require far more battery-fitted sets (and associated type-familiarisation etc).

Essentially, you can't have everything - not with the present infrastructure constraints.

That’s a great solution - could interlink with the Ellesmere Ports half-hourly which would limit the impact of any delay cross-contamination as the Hooton-Liverpool section is already every 15 mins with the Chesters.

 

[Taunton]

So it's possible, bringing the Wrexham train into Liverpool City would encourage higher patronage.

Actually not currently. For the years from 1903 to 1977 the line from Hamilton Square to Liverpool Central ran 24 tph (all 6 cars) in peak hours, including the flat junction at Hamilton Square where alternate trains went alternate ways, and the pioneer auto-reverse in the headshunt at Central. Plus if there had been a service hiccup (far less common than nowadays) they used to beat this well. When the Loop was built the signalling didn't permit anything like this, I believe 16 tph, just two-thirds the old capacity, is the best that can now be done.

 

[richard_S]

3rd rail is not the answer dont forget Padeswood cement works if OHLE is installed once the line from Wrexham to Newport is electrified. Then the freight can use electric traction.

 

[The Crab]

3rd rail is not the answer dont forget Padeswood cement works if OHLE is installed once the line from Wrexham to Newport is electrified. Then the freight can use electric traction.

Shall we all hold our breath until this is completed?

 

[DavidGrain]

Could someone clarify something for me please? Am I right in thinking that diesel trains can run under the Mersey as far as James Street but not round the loop? I have a recollection of reading something either on this thread or the thread about the class 230.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Could someone clarify something for me please? Am I right in thinking that diesel trains can run under the Mersey as far as James Street but not round the loop? I have a recollection of reading something either on this thread or the thread about the class 230.

There's no specific prohibition on diesel trains on any part of the underground sections of Merseyrail. Diesel trains and locomotives have been around all parts of it as part of engineering or maintenance arrangements. It is more the case that there are restrictions.

The issue is the need to do things like check ventilation fans are working, monitor fire alarms etc, which may be impractical during normal service hours.

Liverpool James Street turn back platform is problematic because of lack of accessibility, but it's easily fixable, just requires cash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool James Street turn back platform is problematic because of lack of accessibility, but it's easily fixable, just requires cash.

That's always seemed to be the obvious place to run it to, ideally on battery with the diesels off. That'd still mean diesel in a train going onto Merseyrail but not the fumes.

I seem to recall the Network Rail MPVs have exhaust scrubbers so they are pretty clean. It's certainly nothing like a stinking Voyager idling away at New St.

 

[TheSel]

That's always seemed to be the obvious place to run it to, ideally on battery with the diesels off. That'd still mean diesel in a train going onto Merseyrail but not the fumes.

I seem to recall the Network Rail MPVs have exhaust scrubbers so they are pretty clean. It's certainly nothing like a stinking Voyager idling away at New St.

No end doors. Single track 'burrowing junction' at Hamilton Square. Ain't gonna happen.

Next!

 

[norbitonflyer]

No end doors.

Ironic, given the original provenance of the 230s.

No chance of refitting them, I suppose?

 

[Krokodil]

Not without compromising the crashworthiness, which is the whole reason they were sealed in the first place.

The future for the Borderlands lies in the direction of 777/1s. It's only a question of "when", not "if"

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Not without compromising the crashworthiness, which is the whole reason they were sealed in the first place.

The future for the Borderlands lies in the direction of 777/1s. It's only a question of "when", not "if"

I think you'd see something towards Ellesmere Port/ Helsby first, maybe not for passenger use, but it's the most logical testing area, especially with quick chargers which can be dismantled later and sent to Wrexham.

Trying to test a 777/1 down the Borderlands line, even part of the way, simply isn't possible without decimating the existing service for months.

Fitting all 777s with batteries would also help significantly with capacity management at Chester, particularly during disruption.