Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Ships]

When Totley Tunnel was built it was under land largely owned by the Duke of Rutland. He stipulated that there should be nothing left above the surface on his land, and if there had to be any work it hadn't to be in the grouse shooting season. The old 6th Duke died during the construction phase and the central airshaft was very definitely on his land and left a large imprint. The nothing left behind was this; https://www.flickr.com/photos/kazzle101/41169947300/ After 5 years of digging it was well behind schedule so they were probably glad to see the end of the job. When the headings from Totley and Padley met they were only 4 inches out of alignment.

From the road at ground level it looks like a beached submarine with conning tower, and it does from the air, too. The tunnel is offset to the side to prevent anything dropping on trains. The lining of the shaft is at least 18 inches thick and it was supported by the brick lined arched cavern below. A story circulates that they found a natural cave at that point, possibly. Varied rock conditions were found and some of the brickwork in the lining is 3 feet thick. There were a lot of underground pockets of water, but the cavern was helpful when construction was underway as 60 foot lengths of rail could be turned there. It's very wet.

This is a record of a totally unauthorised, and unsafe, visit underground to find the cavern; https://testchamber.net/drain-or-train-running-the-totley-tube/

Crazy fools!

 

[Killingworth]

It's gone very quiet here but I see the Platform 15 and 16 thread has been closed. These two stalled projects are inter-linked with the Ordsall chord within the original Manchester hub proposals.

In Rail magazine 865 Christian Wolmar starts his article about Sheffield's Tram train, but the sub-heading is about the Hope Valley line and the Manchester - Sheffield route. He misses specific reference to the stalled Hope Valley Capacity Scheme, although he gives some details, and appears to rule out 15 and 16 because it would only create one more tph.

Apparently the HVCS has yet to be re-costed by Network Rail since the submission that went in for the public inquiry. That suggested a cost of £60m, but it's suggested it has risen (in 3 years) to nearer £80m, if not more! Until that costing has been done, and passed revised cost/benefit analysis, detailed planning and tendering can't begin. At best that rules out the 2019 start date announced back in February when the DfT gave, clearly reluctantly, approval to the scheme.

I suppose it's unfair to compare that against £75m for a Tramtrain experiment, but the HVCS was hoped to cost nearer £30m when it first started it's tortuous travels down the consultation pipeline many years ago!

All this procrastination adds more and more costs. It's clearly giving a lot of folks employment. The scheme was supposed to help deliver faster and more reliable services between the two cities.

The ultimate aspiration is 30 minutes with a dreamed of HS3 but on the current route 45 minutes should be achievable. Several trains are timetabled to take 49 minutes for the roughly 45 miles. You should be so lucky? Almost every train can be relied on to be late, see this link on Recent Train Times.

It's not a question of if your train will be late, but by how much, the vast majority in excess of 5 minutes and almost half by more than 10 minutes. Over the last 4 weeks several trains are averaging more than 20 minutes late on a journey of 50 minutes. The timetable is only of use to calculate how late, each late train in it's turn delaying others. Resilience there is not!

That means that all paths across the network suffer from these dominos of failing performance.

Interestingly, that Tramtrain experiment is in itself suffering from knock-on delays caused by late running Northern services. Glad I have a car to fall back on!

 

[_toommm_]

[/QUOTE] Interestingly, that Tramtrain experiment is in itself suffering from knock-on delays caused by late running Northern services. Glad I have a car to fall back on![/QUOTE]

Another case for redoubling really - even before the tram train services going over the Holmes Chord were often subject to delay, especially so joining the main line back towards Meadowhall. With 6tph now each way through Rotherham Central, it's obvious the current arrangement doesn't work.

Does the signalling at Rotherham allow for a train to occupy P3 and a tram to occupy P4 at the same time? And similarly with P1/2?

 

[Meerkat]

Redoubling? The Holmes chord was a 80’s BR link that was built as single track.
Looks rather tight under the railway bridge for another line.

 

[_toommm_]

Redoubling? The Holmes chord was a 80’s BR link that was built as single track.
Looks rather tight under the railway bridge for another line.

Perhaps redoubling is the wrong choice of word - removing the prefix would make it suffice.

 

[Killingworth]

Restoring track lifted in 1985 is what the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is all about.

Here it is in the 1920's and immediately after that singling, creating a 1 kilometre restriction that is a major contibutor to delays on the Sheffield-Manchester line.

 

[B&I]

It's gone very quiet here but I see the Platform 15 and 16 thread has been closed. These two stalled projects are inter-linked with the Ordsall chord within the original Manchester hub proposals.

In Rail magazine 865 Christian Wolmar starts his article about Sheffield's Tram train, but the sub-heading is about the Hope Valley line and the Manchester - Sheffield route. He misses specific reference to the stalled Hope Valley Capacity Scheme, although he gives some details, and appears to rule out 15 and 16 because it would only create one more tph.

Apparently the HVCS has yet to be re-costed by Network Rail since the submission that went in for the public inquiry. That suggested a cost of £60m, but it's suggested it has risen (in 3 years) to nearer £80m, if not more! Until that costing has been done, and passed revised cost/benefit analysis, detailed planning and tendering can't begin. At best that rules out the 2019 start date announced back in February when the DfT gave, clearly reluctantly, approval to the scheme.

I suppose it's unfair to compare that against £75m for a Tramtrain experiment, but the HVCS was hoped to cost nearer £30m when it first started it's tortuous travels down the consultation pipeline many years ago!

All this procrastination adds more and more costs. It's clearly giving a lot of folks employment. The scheme was supposed to help deliver faster and more reliable services between the two cities.

The ultimate aspiration is 30 minutes with a dreamed of HS3 but on the current route 45 minutes should be achievable. Several trains are timetabled to take 49 minutes for the roughly 45 miles. You should be so lucky? Almost every train can be relied on to be late, see this link on Recent Train Times.

It's not a question of if your train will be late, but by how much, the vast majority in excess of 5 minutes and almost half by more than 10 minutes. Over the last 4 weeks several trains are averaging more than 20 minutes late on a journey of 50 minutes. The timetable is only of use to calculate how late, each late train in it's turn delaying others. Resilience there is not!

That means that all paths across the network suffer from these dominos of failing performance.

Interestingly, that Tramtrain experiment is in itself suffering from knock-on delays caused by late running Northern services. Glad I have a car to fall back on!

What's responsible for the atrocious performance, bearing in mind that Hope Valley stoppers don't generally have to negotiate the Castlefield Cataclysm ?

 

[DanTrain]

What's responsible for the atrocious performance, bearing in mind that Hope Valley stoppers don't generally have to negotiate the Castlefield Cataclysm ?

Having had a look at yesterday's performance for Northern's HV stoppers, they appear to almost all have run 5-10L, often either departing late and losing more time en-route or just losing time en-route. I don't know if that's because the timetable is just too tight or whether it's a specific issue, but there seems to be no rhyme or reason to the late running (except that it then delays the following TPE when the eastbound stopper is invariably 10 late!).

 

[johnnychips]

If the TPE to Manchester is late into Sheffield (it leaves about 10 past), the stopper leaves on time at 14 mins past but then waits at the first signal out of Sheffield for it to pass. At least that’s what happens when it leaves from 2C.

 

[js1000]

The ultimate aspiration is 30 minutes with a dreamed of HS3 but on the current route 45 minutes should be achievable. Several trains are timetabled to take 49 minutes for the roughly 45 miles. You should be so lucky? Almost every train can be relied on to be late, see this link on Recent Train Times.

The amount of red in that link hurts my eyes. The sad thing is that sort of thing is now commonplace elsewhere on the Northern network. (Styal Line, Huddersfield Line etc)

 

[Killingworth]

If the TPE to Manchester is late into Sheffield (it leaves about 10 past), the stopper leaves on time at 14 mins past but then waits at the first signal out of Sheffield for it to pass. At least that’s what happens when it leaves from 2C.

It's a giant game of beggar-my-neighbour. As johnnychips says in his example, the Northern stopper will be sent off as soon as possible from Sheffield, usually 2C but sometimes 7 or another platform. Penalties are thus avoided for late departure. The crews are usually very good at turning round any train that has arrived into Sheffield late.

The TPE service can be on time at Doncaster, or regain lost time up to Rotherham, but from there it gets stuck in the 2 track bottleneck at that end of Sheffield station. Unless it is seriously late the Northern service will be held in the Heeley loop to allow the TPE to power through. (That is immensely frustrating when coming in on the delayed TPE and just missing the Northern connection, knowing full well that the stopper will be held to let the faster train go through. The next place it can overtake is after Chinley - a failing the HVCS does not solve.)

If the stopper is allowed out too soon it will block the late TPE. If it's held too long it may hold up the next East Midlands service about Edale. Of course if either of the fast services gets badly late (particularly East Midlands) it will impact on the other two TOC's performance.

The Hope Valley stopping trains can get very full (especially if one of the others is cancelled) and there may be many back packs and cycles. There are often groups of small children. Loading and unloading can take several minutes longer than paths allow in the Hope Valley!

I posted a link to the Recent Train Times data for the last 4 weeks from Manchester to Sheffield showing dire performance. That certainly owes a lot to congestion in and around Manchester and Stockport. Performance from Sheffield to Manchester isn't good, but is a lot better, click on the link to see.

In my experience the Northern trains are blamed for more delays than is deserved.

 

[DanTrain]

The Hope Valley stopping trains can get very full (especially if one of the others is cancelled) and there may be many back packs and cycles. There are often groups of small children. Loading and unloading can take several minutes longer than paths allow in the Hope Valley!

That's true enough, although I had a recent one when a particuarly grumpy guard kicked someone off at Hathersage (not entirely sure why) and then proceeded to spend a good 5 minutes arguing with them on the platform. Guess what, the train then arrive 10L into Sheffield .

The stoppers are also hindered by the guards having to both sell tickets and open doors, as often the train will be in the platform for 20-30s before the guard even gets to the door panel to open the doors, causing further delay - not that I'm advocating DOO at all, but perhaps some proper ticket machines + an actual penalty fare system to stop people chancing "if I have to pay on the train it's the same price anyway and if I don't it's free!".

 

[adrock1976]

I have posted in the EMT thread regarding the split of the Liverpool - Norwich and have made a suggestion as can be seen in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/east-midlands-franchise-2019.163487/page-20#post-3723669. If the capacity scheme does go ahead, could the limited stop services look something like the following along the Hope Valley:

1) Liverpool - Hull via Warrington Central, Manchester, Sheffield, Doncaster, and Goole (existing Liverpool - Norwich western section revised to run to Hull vice Norwich)
2) Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes via Manchester Piccadilly, Sheffield, Doncaster, and Scunthorpe (existing TPE)
3) Manchester Piccadilly - Nottingham limited stop via Dore Curve and Beeston (new third train per hour introduced, maintaining the link between Manchester, Chesterfield, and Nottingham. The existing Northern Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley limited stop to be extended to Nottingham so as to maintain the 2tph between Sheffield and Nottingham)
4) Local Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via Bredbury calling all stations

 

[DanTrain]

3) Manchester Piccadilly - Nottingham limited stop via Dore Curve and Beeston (new third train per hour introduced, maintaining the link between Manchester, Chesterfield, and Nottingham. The existing Northern Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley limited stop to be extended to Nottingham so as to maintain the 2tph between Sheffield and Nottingham)

As much as that service should exist - I don’t see any way it’ll happen any tine soon - the third path needs to be used for Sheffield - Manchester. Even if two longer trains were to suffice (which I doubt given the atrocious road links), local politics would never allow the 3rd path to not call at Sheffield (SCC/Sypte would be in uproar I suspect!).

 

[tbtc]

I have posted in the EMT thread regarding the split of the Liverpool - Norwich and have made a suggestion as can be seen in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/east-midlands-franchise-2019.163487/page-20#post-3723669. If the capacity scheme does go ahead, could the limited stop services look something like the following along the Hope Valley:

1) Liverpool - Hull via Warrington Central, Manchester, Sheffield, Doncaster, and Goole (existing Liverpool - Norwich western section revised to run to Hull vice Norwich)
2) Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes via Manchester Piccadilly, Sheffield, Doncaster, and Scunthorpe (existing TPE)
3) Manchester Piccadilly - Nottingham limited stop via Dore Curve and Beeston (new third train per hour introduced, maintaining the link between Manchester, Chesterfield, and Nottingham. The existing Northern Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley limited stop to be extended to Nottingham so as to maintain the 2tph between Sheffield and Nottingham)
4) Local Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via Bredbury calling all stations

There is no Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield semi-fast service (that terminates at Sheffield) any more.

It's hourly to Nottingham and hourly to Lincoln (thus retaining the direct link between Meadowhall and "south Rotherham" stations), so you'd have to tinker more if you wanted to rejig services.

 

[Bevan Price]

If the TPE to Manchester is late into Sheffield (it leaves about 10 past), the stopper leaves on time at 14 mins past but then waits at the first signal out of Sheffield for it to pass. At least that’s what happens when it leaves from 2C.

In the other direction, if an EM Liverpool - Norwich is running more than about 10 mins. late, the Manchester - Sheffield stopper can be held at New Mills South Jn.

 

[Killingworth]

That's true enough, although I had a recent one when a particuarly grumpy guard kicked someone off at Hathersage (not entirely sure why) and then proceeded to spend a good 5 minutes arguing with them on the platform. Guess what, the train then arrive 10L into Sheffield .

The stoppers are also hindered by the guards having to both sell tickets and open doors, as often the train will be in the platform for 20-30s before the guard even gets to the door panel to open the doors, causing further delay - not that I'm advocating DOO at all, but perhaps some proper ticket machines + an actual penalty fare system to stop people chancing "if I have to pay on the train it's the same price anyway and if I don't it's free!".

Penalty fares start on 6th December on the Hope Valley line. May(!) be difficult to enforce with no barriers except at Piccadilly, and conductor/guards unable to use ticket machines through tunnels - or can they?

Nostalgia time, we've had pay trains on the Hope Valley line since 1969, but in those days there was a guard's van to store bulky items - including small children by the looks of things.

 

[DanTrain]

Penalty fares start on 6th December on the Hope Valley line. May(!) be difficult to enforce with no barriers except at Piccadilly, and conductor/guards unable to use ticket machines through tunnels - or can they?

...And you can’t pay by cash unless on the train - I don’t see how Northern can enforce PF without proper ticket mahines and no more pay-on-train!

 

[Killingworth]

It may be interesting to compare performance between Piccadilly and Sheffield over the last 6 Saturdays with no Northern trains to complicate matters. Normally only light engine freight movements on Saturdays as well. Even without the stoppers and heavy freights punctuality isn't brilliant.

 

[Killingworth]

...And you can’t pay by cash unless on the train - I don’t see how Northern can enforce PF without proper ticket mahines and no more pay-on-train!

Pay at the ticket office in Sheffield, or on the platform at Piccadilly when passing the revenue protection staff. If unable to pay at the machine because it's out of order take a picture of the machine showing the date and time to ensure it can be validated. If unable to pay by card get a Promise to pay ticket and pay the guard or at the booking office.

This is going to be interesting, especially at Dore where the TVM can't cope with demand, and is usually backed up by revenue protection staff 3 days a week. When maybe 30-40 people board for the 6 minute journey into Sheffield on the 7.57 the guard will still be trying to collect the bigger fares from those joining earlier. Those catching the next 8.04 TPE for Cleethorpes will probably find standing room only and won't meet a guard on that one either. Don't believe the estimated passenger numbers for Dore & Totley! They're under counted by quite a large margin, as they will be for many Hope Valley line stations.

 

[LowLevel]

Ruining my favourite job! I love working the 0521 off Nottingham when it's not shortformed. I've been on chatting terms with the Valley regulars since I was a trainee and I've never failed to get all the tickets done on there even with a 4 car 158 to manage. It's one of the few jobs we have where you get to know your regulars and I feel almost aggrieved at the prospect of the polite morning chatter while sorting their tickets being taken away - without exception they're all decent sorts on that train.

 

[_toommm_]

Penalty fares start on 6th December on the Hope Valley line. May(!) be difficult to enforce with no barriers except at Piccadilly, and conductor/guards unable to use ticket machines through tunnels - or can they?

Nostalgia time, we've had pay trains on the Hope Valley line since 1969, but in those days there was a guard's van to store bulky items - including small children by the looks of things.
View attachment 55202

They can use cards - it doesn't properly check if the person has enough money in their account, only if the card is still active (how it does this I don't know, unless the chip on the card records its last usage date).

 

[Killingworth]

Ruining my favourite job! I love working the 0521 off Nottingham when it's not shortformed. I've been on chatting terms with the Valley regulars since I was a trainee and I've never failed to get all the tickets done on there even with a 4 car 158 to manage. It's one of the few jobs we have where you get to know your regulars and I feel almost aggrieved at the prospect of the polite morning chatter while sorting their tickets being taken away - without exception they're all decent sorts on that train.

You don't need to worry too much. You'll be having lots of chats about how the machines don't work, or are on the wrong platform and how they much prefer buying from you. How you can check if the machine was down for 2 minutes will be tricky as they'll not all have phone pictures with timed data available to prove it. The regulars will still give you conversation, and a few,fares.

 

[DanTrain]

Pay at the ticket office in Sheffield, or on the platform at Piccadilly when passing the revenue protection staff. If unable to pay at the machine because it's out of order take a picture of the machine showing the date and time to ensure it can be validated. If unable to pay by card get a Promise to pay ticket and pay the guard or at the booking office.

That’s still not going to catch the numerous journeys that don’t statt/finish at Piccadilly/Sheffield.

Ruining my favourite job! I love working the 0521 off Nottingham when it's not shortformed. I've been on chatting terms with the Valley regulars since I was a trainee and I've never failed to get all the tickets done on there even with a 4 car 158 to manage. It's one of the few jobs we have where you get to know your regulars and I feel almost aggrieved at the prospect of the polite morning chatter while sorting their tickets being taken away - without exception they're all decent sorts on that train.

You sound like an excellent guard (unlike one or two I’ve come across!, but your standard Northern guard has no chance on a busy weekend service or a commuter train into Sheffield unfortunately.

 

[edwin_m]

It may be interesting to compare performance between Piccadilly and Sheffield over the last 6 Saturdays with no Northern trains to complicate matters. Normally only light engine freight movements on Saturdays as well. Even without the stoppers and heavy freights punctuality isn't brilliant.

However I believe the EMT and probably the TPE as well have been severely affected further west by being packed out with passengers who would normally be using Northern. So these figures probably aren't reprepsentative of a day with no Northern trains but none of their passengers either!

 

[Killingworth]

That’s still not going to catch the numerous journeys that don’t start/finish at Piccadilly/Sheffield

At least there's a ticket gate at Piccadilly. It won't catch a lot at Sheffield either as the best Northern guard couldn't check more than 10% of those aboard an incoming commuter service from Dore. That's unless something is being arranged to channel those with promise to pay tickets to the ticket office. A ticket office situated on the opposite side of the station to the exit beside the tram stop to the city centre and Sheffield University.

 

[B&I]

Penalty fares start on 6th December on the Hope Valley line. May(!) be difficult to enforce with no barriers except at Piccadilly, and conductor/guards unable to use ticket machines through tunnels - or can they?

Nostalgia time, we've had pay trains on the Hope Valley line since 1969, but in those days there was a guard's van to store bulky items - including small children by the looks of things.
View attachment 55202

I see fashion moved slowly in the Hope Valley - I would have dated yer woman's hairstyle and outfit about 4 years before that. That whole poster is crying out for the Scarfolk treatment

 

[snowball]

I see fashion moved slowly in the Hope Valley - I would have dated yer woman's hairstyle and outfit about 4 years before that. That whole poster is crying out for the Scarfolk treatment

Her skirt looks a bit short for 1965 though that could be because she's bending.

 

[Killingworth]

Hot from the news desk, you need to read a long way down, but the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme and Dore & Totley station get a mention in the Secretary of State's speech today at the Northern Transport Conference; https://www.gov.uk/…/ambitious-transport-programme-is-funda…

"But let us also remember that the North is not just about cities.
It also has some of the most stunning countryside in Europe.

And a very important rural economy.

That’s why we’re also supporting local railways like the Hope Valley line.

Network Rail is proposing to modernise sections of the railway between Bamford station and Jaggers Lane Bridge in Hathersage.

And around Dore and Totley station.

We are now updating the business case and anticipate being able to announce a delivery date in the next year."

May still take until 2022 is the sting in the tale!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Network Rail is proposing to modernise sections of the railway between Bamford station and Jaggers Lane Bridge in Hathersage.

And around Dore and Totley station.

You can just tell that he is reading what some gnome in the DfT has copied out of the NR documents, with no understanding whatsoever.
As proposed, the NR scheme runs from just east of Earles 'box (first signalling alteration) to half way down Heeley Loop (last signalling alteration).

And "modernise" is a bit strong ...