Hourly Train From Aberdeen to Newcastle

[fhs man 2]

Aberdeen to Edinburgh is a busy route and so is Edinburgh to Newcastle the East Coast trains pick up quite alot of passengers going to Newcastle from Aberdeen. So why not have an hourly train going to Newcastle it could be seperate service or it could be an extension of the hourly Aberdeen to Edinburgh train. My first thoughts would be that it would be operated by East Coast but with Aberdeen to Edinburgh line not electrified it and lack of HST it would be unlikely to happen but what if Scotrail were to run it. What do you think ?

Scotrail already offer a train from Glasgow to Newcastle.

 

[p123]

Good Plan. It could be a semi-fast though, calling at Musselburgh, Dunbar, Berwick, Morpeth, Alnmouth between Edinburgh and Newcastle. ?

That way the hourly Dunbars wouldn't be required and Turbostars could be used that would be released from the EGIP project.

 

[David10]

At the moment neither East Coast or ScotRail have enough spare stock. EC's 4 and XC's 1 in each direction are probably enough. Yes the other southbound services require a 30 minute wait in Edinburgh, but after taking into account that a 170 can only do 100mph, the time saving would be minimal.

 

[fhs man 2]

Good Plan. It could be a semi-fast though, calling at Musselburgh, Dunbar, Berwick, Morpeth, Alnmouth between Edinburgh and Newcastle. ?

That way the hourly Dunbars wouldn't be required and Turbostars could be used that would be released from the EGIP project.

That could work.

 

[p123]

That could work.

It would also allow XC to not have to stop at Dunbar etc providing a faster service from Glasgow to Newcastle (which EC no longer operate - except once a day).

 

[fhs man 2]

It would also allow XC to not have to stop at Dunbar etc providing a faster service from Glasgow to Newcastle (which EC no longer operate - except once a day).

The issue is stock though and if it was semi fast what about the people from Aberdeen and Dundee that want to go to Newcastle.

 

[ainsworth74]

Scotrail already offer a train from Glasgow to Newcastle.

Three trains per day that are operated by Northern from Carlisle and that you'd have to be foolish to use for travel between Glasgow and Newcastle when XC offer a better and quicker service via Edinburgh. I suspect that this service is more of an historical oddity than a serious attempt by Scotrail at offering Glasgow to the Newcastle services.

I would have to question exactly how much demand there would be for more direct Aberdeen to Newcastle services, I can't imagine that it's particularly great in the grand scheme of things and any demand that there is can be met by the existing direct services or by changing at Edinburgh. Further questions have to be raised about rolling stock, where will it come from to run the service as both East Coast and Scotrail are already fairly tightly diagrammed with their existing stock allocations. Finally it seems to me that this is an attempt to draw a line between two places and say "Let's run this service" rather than saying "Where is there quantifiable demand for more services".

 

[fhs man 2]

Three trains per day that are operated by Northern from Carlisle and that you'd have to be foolish to use for travel between Glasgow and Newcastle when XC offer a better and quicker service via Edinburgh. I suspect that this service is more of an historical oddity than a serious attempt by Scotrail at offering Glasgow to the Newcastle services.

I would have to question exactly how much demand there would be for more direct Aberdeen to Newcastle services, I can't imagine that it's particularly great in the grand scheme of things and any demand that there is can be met by the existing direct services or by changing at Edinburgh. Further questions have to be raised about rolling stock, where will it come from to run the service as both East Coast and Scotrail are already fairly tightly diagrammed with their existing stock allocations. Finally it seems to me that this is an attempt to draw a line between two places and say "Let's run this service" rather than saying "Where is there quantifiable demand for more services".

During the plans for the cross border trains to be curtailed to Edinburgh, it was said that Aberdeen to Newcastle was quite busy and that it could of been continued as a single service or something similar.

 

[MCR247]

I don't see much point as an individual service and would there even be paths for a stopper to operate between Edinburgh and Newcastle without new loops being built? I'm not so sure, especially when it'll be operated by a slow 170

 

[ainsworth74]

During the plans for the cross border trains to be curtailed to Aberdeen, it was said that Aberdeen to Newcastle was quite busy and that it could of been continued as a single service or something similar.

Source? I assume you're talking about the recent consultation that was widely derided but where within that exactly?

 

[fhs man 2]

Source? I assume you're talking about the recent consultation that was widely derided but where within that exactly?

I cannot find where but I did read it in the 2014 consultation, it was also on this forum.

 

[MCR247]

Yeah I read that as well. First thing that came to mind when I saw this thread was that it would be inspired by that post!

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1202669&postcount=58

Actually, the idea was to find out if people wanted alternative services. For example, East Coast said that if they didn't have to serve Inverness and Aberdeen, they could provide a half-hourly service between Edinburgh and Newcastle. This might have helped meet local desires for new stations at Reston and East Linton and improved frequency at Dunbar. Also, Aberdeen-Newcastle was identified as an important market and a dedicated service for that route was suggested.

In any case, I don't think all WC/EC/XC trains still having to terminate at Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley - in the central belt, where the majority of Scots live - amounts to a very successful racist policy.

My bold

 

[ainsworth74]

I cannot find where but I did read it in the 2014 consultation, it was also on this forum.

Fair enough. And on the other points raised by myself and others including rolling stock and pathing?

 

[reb0118]

I would have to question exactly how much demand there would be for more direct Aberdeen [ABD] to Newcastle [NCL]services, I can't imagine that it's particularly great in the grand scheme of things and any demand that there is can be met by the existing direct services or by changing at Edinburgh [EDB]..

Quite a lot in my opinion. I estimate about 10 - 15% of passengers on the ABD - EDB services I work are travelling to NCL or points south on the ECM & branches. It seems sometimes that every second rigger has a geordie accect at times. Leuchars [LEU] also produces a lot of hooray henrys & henriettas heading down to the home counties to visit mater & pater - although having to change in Newcastle offers no real benefit to changing at EDB.

There was a proposal to run an hourly ABD - NCL service via the Edinburgh Airport [EDI] rail link but that fell by the wayside when that link was cancelled.

I would welcome it but as is usual it will come down to cost, availability of coaching stock, & pathing considerations

 

[fhs man 2]

Fair enough. And on the other points raised by myself and others including rolling stock and pathing?

Not sure about rolling stock maybe new stock could be sourced. Not sure about pathing it could go direct.

 

[ainsworth74]

Quite a lot in my opinion.

Interesting, thank you

I would welcome it but as is usual it will come down to cost, availability of coaching stock, & pathing considerations

Agreed, I think it would be a good idea but there are quite a few obstacles to overcome.

Not sure about rolling stock maybe new stock could be sourced. Not sure about pathing it could go direct.

I didn't mean that I meant how do you fit it in around all the other services between Newcastle - Edinburgh - Aberdeen there are a lot of them and paths are often at a premium.

 

[Rick1984]

class 67 & mark ii or iii carriages?

 

[reb0118]

class 67 & mark ii or iii carriages?

Sounds good to me. I'm passed out and ready to go - would need route refreshing from Dunbar to Newcastle but that is just a formality as I've kept up to date independently.

So that's staffing sorted (might need a driver though come to think of it.........)

 

[MCR247]

class 67 & mark ii or iii carriages?

Aren't you going to need quite a few for an hourly service?

Anyway do you not think this is a lot of expense for not much gain?

 

[tbtc]

At the moment going over the Tay Bridge we have

Aberdeen - Edinburgh hourly FSR (non stop Leuchars -Haymarket)
Dundee - Edinburgh hourly FSR (most stops Dundee - Kirkcaldy, semi fast south of Kirkcaldy)
Aberdeen - London token East Coast (one northbound starting at Leeds)
Aberdeen - Birmingham etc token XC

...and over the Royal Border Bridge we have

Edinburgh - London hourly East Coast
Edinburgh - Plymouth hourly XC (some starting at Glasgow/ Aberdeen, some running to Penzance etc)
Aberdeen/ Glasgow/ Inverness - London roughly bi-hourly East Coast (in addition to the main hourly service)

There are also local trains between Edinburgh and Drem/ Dunbar and Morpeth and Newcastle.

So, would this Aberdeen - Newcastle service be replacing any of these or as well as? Would it see some other trains cut back?

Remember that the RUS said that the business case for a "local" Edinburgh - Newcastle service was weak.

This reminds me of the "hourly Aberdeen to Leeds" idea that someone had a few months ago...

Quite a lot in my opinion. I estimate about 10 - 15% of passengers on the ABD - EDB services I work are travelling to NCL or points south on the ECM & branches

Although of course most people doing such a journey will aim for the through trains

 

[fhs man 2]

At the moment going over the Tay Bridge we have

Aberdeen - Edinburgh hourly FSR (non stop Leuchars -Haymarket)
Dundee - Edinburgh hourly FSR (most stops Dundee - Kirkcaldy, semi fast south of Kirkcaldy)
Aberdeen - London token East Coast (one northbound starting at Leeds)
Aberdeen - Birmingham etc token XC

...and over the Royal Border Bridge we have

Edinburgh - London hourly East Coast
Edinburgh - Plymouth hourly XC (some starting at Glasgow/ Aberdeen, some running to Penzance etc)
Aberdeen/ Glasgow/ Inverness - London roughly bi-hourly East Coast (in addition to the main hourly service)

There are also local trains between Edinburgh and Drem/ Dunbar and Morpeth and Newcastle.

So, would this Aberdeen - Newcastle service be replacing any of these or as well as? Would it see some other trains cut back?

Remember that the RUS said that the business case for a "local" Edinburgh - Newcastle service was weak.

This reminds me of the "hourly Aberdeen to Leeds" idea that someone had a few months ago...



Although of course most people doing such a journey will aim for the through trains

If it was from Scotrail then there would not be any trains to cut as they are all operated by different TOC's, unless XC run it.

The hourly Crosscountry service to Birmingham could be extended every second train to maybe create a service to Newcastle every 2 hours plus direct connections to the west coast.

I think a train to Newcastle every 2 hours would be more likely and would be smarter.

 

[route:oxford]

Aren't you going to need quite a few for an hourly service?

Anyway do you not think this is a lot of expense for not much gain?

I could see the benefit if, following significant electrifcation, all XC services terminated at Newcastle. (Becoming Cross County Trains) and Voyagers were cascaded to an Inverness-Newcastle & Aberdeen-Newcastle service XB trains.

Newcastle is a far easier station to change at than Waverley.

 

[tbtc]

If it was from Scotrail then there would not be any trains to cut as they are all operated by different TOC's, unless XC run it.

The hourly Crosscountry service to Birmingham could be extended every second train to maybe create a service to Newcastle every 2 hours plus direct connections to the west coast.

I think a train to Newcastle every 2 hours would be more likely and would be smarter.

Extending some of the XC services from Southampton/ Reading to Newcastle up to Aberdeen (which is what you are suggesting?) would hit the obvious problems of lack of suitable stock and lack of additional paths over the Forth Bridge.

Newcastle is a far easier station to change at than Waverley.

...and Berwick would be an easier station to change at than Newcastle...

 

[fhs man 2]

Extending some of the XC services from Southampton/ Reading to Newcastle up to Aberdeen (which is what you are suggesting?) would hit the obvious problems of lack of suitable stock and lack of additional paths over the Forth Bridge.

Via Glasgow or is that just silly.

 

[route:oxford]

Berwick would be an easier station to change at than Newcastle...

True

But let's be kind to the diagrammers and travelling public.

I'd hate to have to diagram multiple terminations at Berwick, nor would I like to change services at Berwick on any day that wasn't warm and sunny.

Perhaps the best option to avoid the Forth Bridge issue is to run service over the Forth Bridge at Stirling, then reopen the Express route between Perth & Aberdeen via Bridge of Dun...

 

[MCR247]

Via Glasgow or is that just silly.

I think you know the answer to that without even asking

 

[fhs man 2]

I am stuck I cannot find a way of getting over the forth rail bridge, the only way I can think of doing it would be to extend the couple of trains that start at Dundee to start at Aberdeen instead or you could extend the Scotrail services to Newcastle but then there would be the problem of getting over Border Bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you know the answer to that without even asking

If you look at it going by the National Rail map you could go to Labert and go round that way to get to Edinburgh. From the map it looks like it would take the same time.

This is a option it could go over the Tay bridge then past Leuchars and Cupar then to Perth down that way past Stirling turn at the Labert siding and go to Edinburgh that way. Missing out the Forth Bridge. One bridge down 1 to go.

 

[route:oxford]

This is a option it could go over the Tay bridge then past Leuchars and Cupar then to Perth down that way past Stirling turn at the Labert siding and go to Edinburgh that way. Missing out the Forth Bridge. One bridge down 1 to go.

Real time waster, better to go direct from Dundee to Perth. There's an approximate 20 minute premium for routing over the Forth Bridge at Stirling rather than the grander one down stream.

 

[fhs man 2]

Real time waster, better to go direct from Dundee to Perth. There's an approximate 20 minute premium for routing over the Forth Bridge at Stirling rather than the grander one down stream.

I am unsure what you mean.

 

[route:oxford]

I am unsure what you mean.

I'm not sure what you are unsure about...

A premium is something that is in addition to. So if a service takes 1hour to get from a to b, but to go an alternative route that took 1h20m, that would be described as a 20 minute premium.

There were originally 5 railway bridges over the river Forth.

1. Stirling, Scottish Central Railway (1848 )
2. Stirling, Stirling & Dunfermline Railway (1853)
3. Gartmore, Strathkendrick & Aberfoyle Railway (1882)
4. Alloa Swing Bridge, Alloa Railway (1885)
5. Forth Bridge, Forth Bridge Railway (1890)

Bridges 1, 2 & 5 are still in operation.

To get from Dundee to Edinburgh, it's possible to route via bridge 5 using the most direct route. Bridge 1 going via Perth, Bridge 2 going via Dunfermline (freight-ish only) is also possible.