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How actively are electronic displays at bus stops used to provide updates?

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TUC

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For the last couple of days, due to a serious incident in Halifax, several roads in the town centre have been closed, leading to bus diversions.

I noticed yesterday in Market Street, which was closed at one end, that the electronic displays at all the bus stops (which are further down the road, from where thr closure isn't visible) were just displaying the normal bus times, leading to numbers of people waiting there for services that had actally been divered onto other roads.

It did lead me to wonder what is the point of electronic displays if they are not used to provide actual real time updates? TfL seem quite good at this, but what is the experience elsewhere in the country, and why does it not consistently happen?
 
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Dai Corner

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My experience is that they just display the timetable. Not even actual running times.

The ones at stops (as opposed to the bus stations) here in Newport just say 'refer to timetable' and show the wrong time. Pathetic and embarrassing.
 

avid2424

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If the display shows xx minutes re the next bus then usually there is tracking.

If it is just a time say 13:56 then that is simply the timetabled time. And in this instance if the bus is one or more minutes late the service gets deleted at one minute past the timetabled time
 

WibbleWobble

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For the last couple of days, due to a serious incident in Halifax, several roads in the town centre have been closed, leading to bus diversions.

I noticed yesterday in Market Street, which was closed at one end, that the electronic displays at all the bus stops (which are further down the road, from where thr closure isn't visible) were just displaying the normal bus times, leading to numbers of people waiting there for services that had actally been divered onto other roads.

It did lead me to wonder what is the point of electronic displays if they are not used to provide actual real time updates? TfL seem quite good at this, but what is the experience elsewhere in the country, and why does it not consistently happen?
The system isn't capable of that level of dynamic updating. Realtime Information (RTI) systems are matching to a timetable that is provided to the supplier by way of a TransXchange file. The real time has vehicle tracking information (service code, journey code, bus working number), so the RTI system is constantly matching to that journey. If it is serving a different stop in an emergency, that won't be in the data as the bus stop reference isn't in the file.

To provide what you're asking would involve the operator having to create a new timetable specifically for the closure (then a new one to switch it back), and most RTI systems only update overnight at best - so you wouldn't be able to get any form of real time for the stop change. It isn't practical and it isn't feasible, especially as the road could reopen at any given minute.

The best you could hope for would be for an emergency alert to be sent to the stops concerned, which would see a scrolling message appear at the foot of the screen (or something similar). Either that, or just completely turn off the screens affected by the closure.

Planned closures are different, as an operator can prepare the data and supply it to the RTI system provider. But even that has its limitations, as a road may be closed later than planned, and can reopen sooner or later that the contractor suggested.
 

edwin_m

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The Nottingham ones seem pretty good. Most buses seem to have real time displayed at most stops (as mentioned above, countdown minutes are real time and a time shown is just the schedule). Scrolling messages are usually displayed at relevant stops when there's a disruption or diversion, but I don't use it often enough to know whether stops on diversions show the diverted buses.

My main reservation is that the newer flatscreen-type displays flip between the times and any special message and seem to spend much too long on the latter, whereas with the older LED ones the times are always shown with the message scrolling on the bottom line. A minor niggle is that if you're towards the back of the queue in a shelter, the shelter roof blocks the view of the display.
 

TUC

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The system isn't capable of that level of dynamic updating. Realtime Information (RTI) systems are matching to a timetable that is provided to the supplier by way of a TransXchange file. The real time has vehicle tracking information (service code, journey code, bus working number), so the RTI system is constantly matching to that journey. If it is serving a different stop in an emergency, that won't be in the data as the bus stop reference isn't in the file.

To provide what you're asking would involve the operator having to create a new timetable specifically for the closure (then a new one to switch it back), and most RTI systems only update overnight at best - so you wouldn't be able to get any form of real time for the stop change. It isn't practical and it isn't feasible, especially as the road could reopen at any given minute.

The best you could hope for would be for an emergency alert to be sent to the stops concerned, which would see a scrolling message appear at the foot of the screen (or something similar). Either that, or just completely turn off the screens affected by the closure.

Planned closures are different, as an operator can prepare the data and supply it to the RTI system provider. But even that has its limitations, as a road may be closed later than planned, and can reopen sooner or later that the contractor suggested.
But aren't systems capable of Control overriding the usual display and creating a bespoke message for specific bus stops? It does sound a pretty basic piece of IT functionality.
 

Jonny

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But aren't systems capable of Control overriding the usual display and creating a bespoke message for specific bus stops? It does sound a pretty basic piece of IT functionality.
It can be done; The displays on Chester-le-Street front street normally just show timetables, but today they were showing notices about a current bus driver strike and an abridged timetable with at least some of the services that were still running (X12, 25, 71).
 

WibbleWobble

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But aren't systems capable of Control overriding the usual display and creating a bespoke message for specific bus stops? It does sound a pretty basic piece of IT functionality.
That's the emergency alert I alluded to in my previous post (especially the "or something similar" bit).
 

LLivery

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My experience is that they just display the timetable. Not even actual running times.

The ones at stops (as opposed to the bus stations) here in Newport just say 'refer to timetable' and show the wrong time. Pathetic and embarrassing.

I had this in Cardiff the other day. The bus was 15 minutes late, but you wouldn't know because all the displays did was repeat what was on the timetable poster, disappearing once the planned time had passed. It also didn't show all the buses serving. Begging the question, what's the point?
 

RT4038

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But aren't systems capable of Control overriding the usual display and creating a bespoke message for specific bus stops? It does sound a pretty basic piece of IT functionality.
You are assuming that there is a Control, and that it is adequately staffed to deal with such things - in the average bus company that is pretty unlikely.

I had this in Cardiff the other day. The bus was 15 minutes late, but you wouldn't know because all the displays did was repeat what was on the timetable poster, disappearing once the planned time had passed. It also didn't show all the buses serving. Begging the question, what's the point?
There isn't! Using the tracking app of the operator or bustimes.org is more reliable, and is replacing these fixed installations running on obsolete software.
 

LucyP

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@LeeLivery - They are pointless. Just the emperor's new clothes. Technology for technology's sake. A waste of money when everyone has a smartphone.

The better ones show the "actual" time the bus will arrive, but that doesn't take into account that it has to arrive in the city, go to the terminus, leave the terminus, and then arrive at the stop, so you get 6 minutes, then suddenly it is 2 minutes, then 8 minutes, which it then sticks at, and then it will count down and up again as it leaves the terminus, depending upon traffic. And of what use is any of this information? You are standing at the stop, waiting for the bus, just like you always did.

Also, sometimes the bus suddenly disappears from the display. You wait another 10 minutes, just like you always did, just to confirm that the display isn't wrong. After 10 minutes, you know that the bus is cancelled.

It's why bus travel is so unpopular and is being subsidised by the Government and Councils, to keep it on life support.
 
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AY1975

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The Sheffield ones are rather hit and miss: sometimes they show the number of minutes until a bus is expected to arrive at a stop, and sometimes they just show the scheduled time of arrival. In the latter case the bus often simply fails to turn up, although they do sometimes show if a bus that is due has been cancelled in which case they flash between the word CANCELLED and the destination of that bus every few seconds. I would guess that the number of minutes until arrival is only shown if the bus has GPS equipment that is in working order.

You can also access departure information for any bus stop via the Travel South Yorkshire website or the First Bus app, but these do not usually seem to show cancellations and when you get to the stop you sometimes find that the information on the indicator at the stop is completely different from what the TSY site or First app shows.

Buses have even been known to vanish into thin air when the number of minutes until arrival is shown.
 
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Simon75

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The Sheffield ones are rather hit and miss: sometimes they show the number of minutes until a bus is expected to arrive at a stop, and sometimes they just show the scheduled time of arrival. In the latter case the bus often simply fails to turn up, although they do sometimes show if a bus that is due has been cancelled in which case they flash between the word CANCELLED and the destination of that bus every few seconds. I would guess that the number of minutes until arrival is only shown if the bus has GPS equipment that is in working order.

You can also access departure information for any bus stop via the Travel South Yorkshire website or the First Bus app, but these do not usually seem to show cancellations and when you get to the stop you sometimes find that the information on the indicator at the stop is completely different from when the TSY site or First app shows.

Buses have even been known to vanish into thin air when the number of minutes until arrival is shown.
I was in Sheffield the other week and saw myself the bus due had disappeared
 

dgl

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I had a bus that repeatedly went from 5 to 4 then back to 5, turns out bus had broken down and the system couldn't handle that, it obviously thought that it was still coming and getting confused.

Saying that ours are essential now as they let you know if a bus is cancelled, which is all too regular, summer was a nightmare and cancellations are still all to regular.
 
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Roger1973

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The Sheffield ones are rather hit and miss: sometimes they show the number of minutes until a bus is expected to arrive at a stop, and sometimes they just show the scheduled time of arrival. In the latter case the bus often simply fails to turn up, although they do sometimes show if a bus that is due has been cancelled in which case they flash between the word CANCELLED and the destination of that bus every few seconds. I would guess that the number of minutes until arrival is only shown if the bus has GPS equipment that is in working order.

Yes, with most systems, the predicted time (as in '5 mins') is only shown if the system and the bus are talking to each other. Most systems default to showing the scheduled time (as in 15.10) if the system can't see the bus.

That may be because the bus is temporarily in a dead spot, or the kit on the bus isn't working, or the driver hasn't logged in properly (although since it's now usually part of the ticket machine login that's getting rarer, although a bus can 'disappear' during a driver change-over), or the bus simply isn't running.

The alternative approach (and I believe TFL's countdown works on this basis) is that if the system can't 'see' the bus, it doesn't show a prediction. This means predictions go off during the driver change, and, while GPS dead spots are rarer in London, I did encounter a situation where one bit of Lewisham had become a dead spot (think there was some equipment defective in the area) which meant that buses fell off the system for a few minutes then re-appeared. Some people would assume that meant a bus had been cancelled and start walking, only to be passed by the bus a few minutes later.

No system is ever going to be able to deal automatically with a bus that's been running normally then breaks down, or gets stopped due to a sudden traffic incident, and system will assume that if bus is on stand at the terminus, then it's going to leave on time, which may not happen for a number of reasons - some may be known in advance (if it's known a driver duty is not covered that day), some may not (if driver presses 'engine start' and nothing happens.)

Yes, most systems now do have the facility for someone to make a manual intervention for cancellations, or to put warning messages up at particular stops, or (in many cases) to suspend predictions being shown at a stop that's closed, or where buses are diverted away from normal line of route. But that requires there to be a 'someone' to do it.

All these things require management will and staff resources at combination of bus operator and local transport authority. Both financial constraints and political / management thinking often means that getting shiny new kit installed is seen as a priority, having staff getting the data right in the first place, and at any service or stop changes, and dealing with day-to-day issues is often seen as not a priority, and managers talk about 'looking at the big picture' when what they mean is they can't be bothered to deal with what to them is minor detail, but to the passenger waiting in the rain, is about the journey they are making (or failing to make because that bus isn't running.)

With some systems, only the local authority people have got the access to put messages up, which is all very well if the incident happens during office hours, or the local authority has out-of-hours staff who can deal with it, and if bus operator tells local authority.

All of these will apply just the same whether the real time information is shown on a physical piece of kit in the bus shelter or on a smart phone app which some people won't have, others won't have a smart phone, and others won't have credit for the data.
 

Hophead

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I have long thought that "distance away" would be a useful item to display (possibly alternating with ETA). Unlike the latter, it is objective (unless an unplanned diversion occurs) and, if the bus is, say, 500m away for several minutes, the passenger can reasonably infer that it's stuck in traffic or broken down and make a slightly more informed decision.
 

Roger1973

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I have long thought that "distance away" would be a useful item to display (possibly alternating with ETA). Unlike the latter, it is objective (unless an unplanned diversion occurs) and, if the bus is, say, 500m away for several minutes, the passenger can reasonably infer that it's stuck in traffic or broken down and make a slightly more informed decision.

Interesting idea. Although not sure what proportion of the public will get it. It's possibly a bit more complicated than the railway's (relatively) recent thing which says 'this train is currently between vauxhall and clapham junction' (or whatever.)

And if a display shows '5 mins' for quite a long time, you can draw the same conclusion from that.

There are bus operator apps (I know Reading Buses' app does it) where you can follow your bus trundling along towards you on the map. Not sure how many offer this.
 

PeterC

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Yes, with most systems, the predicted time (as in '5 mins') is only shown if the system and the bus are talking to each other. Most systems default to showing the scheduled time (as in 15.10) if the system can't see the bus.

That may be because the bus is temporarily in a dead spot, or the kit on the bus isn't working, or the driver hasn't logged in properly (although since it's now usually part of the ticket machine login that's getting rarer, although a bus can 'disappear' during a driver change-over), or the bus simply isn't running.
I haven't monitored since the total revamp of services last month but the Chesham and Amersham local routes run by Red Rose are notorious for not showing in real time on the displays. When monitored on bustimes.org I regularly see the bus with the wrong route number (several routes interwork) and often the previous destination. Cash customers are few and far between in shopping hours and I get the impression that many drivers only worry about the ticket machine if somebody offers them money.

I don't know if the final destination has an effect. The routes tend to end in loops and the destination on bustimes.org tracking doesn't always match that on timetable
 

jon0844

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You are assuming that there is a Control, and that it is adequately staffed to deal with such things - in the average bus company that is pretty unlikely.


There isn't! Using the tracking app of the operator or bustimes.org is more reliable, and is replacing these fixed installations running on obsolete software.

Weird thing this week when trying out the Uno X10. I was able to see all four buses and where they were, knowing my inbound service was 30 minutes late and needed to turn around. The bus disappeared from the tracker later, so I wondered what had happened.

This was all through bustimes.org. I then checked the Uno app and its own tracker, and saw the bus again.

Once on the bus, 40-odd minutes late, the Uno app was able to track it, but had out of date info on loading (saying busy, which it was inbound but now empty outbound) and other info ghosted.

But, it was tracking all the way to Luton.

Bustimes.org could no longer see it. The number of buses being tracked was one less.

I am guessing it was transmitting corrupt data in some way, which the Uno (Ticketer) app could still decipher but the website couldn't.

I don't know what bus stops might have shown, the ones with displays on them.

It's all quite amateurish. There are clear improvements over yesteryear, but also lots of shortcomings.
 

WAB

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In Leeds, the app can show a bus in 3 minutes, the screen shows the same bus in 14 minutes, and of course neither will be correct. Looking at the bus location on Bustimes is the best way of working out how long your bus will be. The London system is more accurate, but even then there is no indication of cancellation vs not tracking.

Really, the role of information controller is required in the same way as it is on the railways, and new modelling systems to take account of bus load and congestion to make the timing more realistic.
 

geoffk

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BusTimes.org was playing up in Exeter today - cancelled or not tracking? Hard to tell. I needed to go across town to a meeting in County Hall so my journey was time-critical (whereas most of them aren't). Of course it's only as good as the data which goes into it but I find it's normally reliable. More real-time displays are promised to add to those already in the city centre.
 

padbus

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BusTimes.org was playing up in Exeter today - cancelled or not tracking? Hard to tell. I needed to go across town to a meeting in County Hall so my journey was time-critical (whereas most of them aren't). Of course it's only as good as the data which goes into it but I find it's normally reliable. More real-time displays are promised to add to those already in the city centre.
The Stagecoach app was showing some buses as "cancelled" this afternoon in Exeter. The journeys concerned did not appear at all on the electronic departure boards in the High Street.
 

AY1975

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Yes, with most systems, the predicted time (as in '5 mins') is only shown if the system and the bus are talking to each other. Most systems default to showing the scheduled time (as in 15.10) if the system can't see the bus.

That may be because the bus is temporarily in a dead spot, or the kit on the bus isn't working, or the driver hasn't logged in properly (although since it's now usually part of the ticket machine login that's getting rarer, although a bus can 'disappear' during a driver change-over), or the bus simply isn't running.
Or the bus doesn't have GPS equipment.
No system is ever going to be able to deal automatically with a bus that's been running normally then breaks down, or gets stopped due to a sudden traffic incident, and system will assume that if bus is on stand at the terminus, then it's going to leave on time, which may not happen for a number of reasons - some may be known in advance (if it's known a driver duty is not covered that day), some may not (if driver presses 'engine start' and nothing happens.)
Or with a bus that's due to change drivers en route but there's no relief driver available so it has to be terminated short of its destination. In Sheffield, you sometimes see buses with ONLY all in upper case after the destination, presumably for that reason (on the actual destination display on the bus, not on the bus stop indicators), e.g. City Centre ONLY, Olive Grove ONLY.
 

jon0844

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If a bus breaks down, it would be great if the driver could press something on the machine to reflect that - or control could do so once told of the fault.
 

Deerfold

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Yes, with most systems, the predicted time (as in '5 mins') is only shown if the system and the bus are talking to each other. Most systems default to showing the scheduled time (as in 15.10) if the system can't see the bus.

That may be because the bus is temporarily in a dead spot, or the kit on the bus isn't working, or the driver hasn't logged in properly (although since it's now usually part of the ticket machine login that's getting rarer, although a bus can 'disappear' during a driver change-over), or the bus simply isn't running.

The alternative approach (and I believe TFL's countdown works on this basis) is that if the system can't 'see' the bus, it doesn't show a prediction. This means predictions go off during the driver change, and, while GPS dead spots are rarer in London, I did encounter a situation where one bit of Lewisham had become a dead spot (think there was some equipment defective in the area) which meant that buses fell off the system for a few minutes then re-appeared. Some people would assume that meant a bus had been cancelled and start walking, only to be passed by the bus a few minutes later.

I used to work with iBus and Countdown monitoring performance of predictions and trying to work out what caused persistent problems. Whilst it's possible some settings may have changed, I suspect not. Countdown signs (and apps using the TfL API) will continue to count down for 10 minutes after receiving the last predicted time for a bus. IF a bus is actually logged out, it'll disappear sooner. The problem is rarely GPS dead spots as the system can manage those for a while, becoming slowly less accurate (there's some quite big GPS dead spots in central London) - the problem is not having a signal to send back the position information.

No system is ever going to be able to deal automatically with a bus that's been running normally then breaks down, or gets stopped due to a sudden traffic incident, and system will assume that if bus is on stand at the terminus, then it's going to leave on time, which may not happen for a number of reasons - some may be known in advance (if it's known a driver duty is not covered that day), some may not (if driver presses 'engine start' and nothing happens.)

In London, the system assumes that if the bus is on time arriving at the end of the route, it'll leave on time going back, if it's late that'll it'll leave 2 minutes after it arrives.

Yes, most systems now do have the facility for someone to make a manual intervention for cancellations, or to put warning messages up at particular stops, or (in many cases) to suspend predictions being shown at a stop that's closed, or where buses are diverted away from normal line of route. But that requires there to be a 'someone' to do it.

TfL used to have a department dedicated to iBus and Countdown. It's been subsumed into IT with a lot fewer people managing it. The number of errors is far higher than it used to be (incorrect destinations, misspellings and fewer updates). There's a couple of rare errors that I found that I don't think have been fixed, yet, one resulting in a bus either not displaying or popping up for a couple of minutes, disappearing and then repeating.

All these things require management will and staff resources at combination of bus operator and local transport authority. Both financial constraints and political / management thinking often means that getting shiny new kit installed is seen as a priority, having staff getting the data right in the first place, and at any service or stop changes, and dealing with day-to-day issues is often seen as not a priority, and managers talk about 'looking at the big picture' when what they mean is they can't be bothered to deal with what to them is minor detail, but to the passenger waiting in the rain, is about the journey they are making (or failing to make because that bus isn't running.)

With some systems, only the local authority people have got the access to put messages up, which is all very well if the incident happens during office hours, or the local authority has out-of-hours staff who can deal with it, and if bus operator tells local authority.

All of these will apply just the same whether the real time information is shown on a physical piece of kit in the bus shelter or on a smart phone app which some people won't have, others won't have a smart phone, and others won't have credit for the data.

I received a reply from a bus company recently, several months after my complaint apologising for delays to the bus I was awaiting for and explaining what the problem was (despite on the day saying they knew of no problem on the route), but ignored that twice I'd caught the 4th predicted bus after half an hour or so waiting and the other buses counting down to due and not arriving - if I'd know I'd have a half hour wait I could have walked to another road with very frequent services (or got more than half way to where I was going).

If a bus breaks down, it would be great if the driver could press something on the machine to reflect that - or control could do so once told of the fault.

In London they can log out of the ticket machine and it will disappear from screens. Route controllers can't update signs (they used to be able to, but not all could do so sensibly) and by the time someone centrally could do anything it's unlikely to be worth it for one bus.
 

Roger1973

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Countdown signs (and apps using the TfL API) will continue to count down for 10 minutes after receiving the last predicted time for a bus.

Thanks for the thoughts.

This particular one makes sense in terms of the location that I (sometimes) and my mother (more regularly) were getting this happening. I'm fairly sure this specific one (I don't want to identify the exact locations) was some fault with the static kit, rather than one or more buses, as it happened to multiple buses, and in the same location.

I can't remember the detail now (it was a few years ago) but I tried looking at that route in the traintimes.org.uk tracker, and something weird was happening - they were tracking correctly from stops A to C, then re-appearing at stop H.
 

jon0844

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In London they can log out of the ticket machine and it will disappear from screens. Route controllers can't update signs (they used to be able to, but not all could do so sensibly) and by the time someone centrally could do anything it's unlikely to be worth it for one bus.

There needs to be a quick way to do it, and ideally by the driver, as I can see how control might struggle to manage one or two individual buses amongst tens or hundreds of buses.

But the person at the bus stop that gets just 2 buses per hour really wants to know about just one bus. If there's a bus every 6 minutes or so, I guess it doesn't matter so much.
 

SCH117X

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I spent a a fair time waiting last Friday for an every 10 minute service with the real time display pretty dead stating "D tarting up". Tried the mobile app which was way out with its predictions. Think the issue was one bus was cancelled and hence the next was picking up twice the normal load which then caused it to get later and later to the point it was then picking up also the load the bus following it. Both arrived at the stop I was waiting at almost together. I gambled on the wrong one- expecting the first now being that full it would not stop to pick up but instead stopped to set down at every stop - it did gain a far distance on the second one until eventually one set down too many and got overtaken. Another route was being diverted and the onboard displays were sticking on the first stop on the route not being followed until it picked up which correct stop back on route had been arrived at.
 

riceuten

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We have real time bus displays in a couple of locations in Stevenage - though, maddeningly, not the actual bus station itself. I say "real time bus displays", it only displays the real time *if* the bus is running and has departed the displayless bus station. If the bus is cancelled, it shows the bus timetable by default. If the bus is actually running, it shows the number of minutes till the bus is estimated to arrive

i.e.

SB3 Stevenage Bus Station 3 mins
SB3 Stevenage Bus Station 2200

Which means either the 2nd listed bus has not left the bus station yet or has been cancelled.
 
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