How are end dates worked out for 1-month tickets?

[DynamicSpirit]

Usually if you buy a monthly season ticket or travelcard that starts on the n'th of the month, or a return ticket with return journey to be within a month, then it's valid until the (n-1)'th of the next month. I'm just curious how that works with months having different numbers of days.

For example, I've just bought an Oyster travelcard starting tomorrow (31 Aug) which runs to 30 Sept. I'm guessing that if I'd done it a day later (1 Sept) then it would still finish on 30 Sept so I'd get a day less of travel. Is that correct? That seems marginally unfair, but understandable.

What if you buy a ticket on 30 January - clearly most years it's impossible for it to end on 29 Feb. Are there any rules governing whether the end date should be 28 Feb or 1 Mar?

 

[Greenback]

Usually if you buy a monthly season ticket or travelcard that starts on the n'th of the month, or a return ticket with return journey to be within a month, then it's valid until the (n-1)'th of the next month. I'm just curious how that works with months having different numbers of days.

For example, I've just bought an Oyster travelcard starting tomorrow (31 Aug) which runs to 30 Sept. I'm guessing that if I'd done it a day later (1 Sept) then it would still finish on 30 Sept so I'd get a day less of travel. Is that correct? That seems marginally unfair, but understandable.

That is correct.

What if you buy a ticket on 30 January - clearly most years it's impossible for it to end on 29 Feb. Are there any rules governing whether the end date should be 28 Feb or 1 Mar?

If you buy an annual season on 30 January 2013, the last day of validity will be 29 January 2014.

 

[craigwilson]

If you buy an annual season on 30 January 2013, the last day of validity will be 29 January 2014.

Well, yes, but that wasn't really the question that was asked - it was about monthlies (specifically those covering February).

Semi-related: In some ways it's a bit like the the problem that people born on 29th Feb have - are they legally a year older on 28th Feb or 1st March?

 

[yorkie]

Yep, in some months you get a better deal than others. So it is, by definition, unfair!

For example, I've just bought an Oyster travelcard starting tomorrow (31 Aug) which runs to 30 Sept...

Out of interest, are you doing journeys at weekends? I am guessing this isn't only for commuting Mondays-Fridays as otherwise you'd have got the ticket to start on a Monday and finish on a Friday?
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What if you buy a ticket on 30 January - clearly most years it's impossible for it to end on 29 Feb. Are there any rules governing whether the end date should be 28 Feb or 1 Mar?

The end date is whenever you want, but it will cost more to extend the ticket into March.

 

[Robsignals]

Well, yes, but that wasn't really the question that was asked - it was about monthlies (specifically those covering February).

Semi-related: In some ways it's a bit like the the problem that people born on 29th Feb have - are they legally a year older on 28th Feb or 1st March?

If an Outward journey starts at say 1000 on July 18th then a month runs to 0959 on Aug 18th so you don't get a full month currently, more so the later the Outward journey is. As it's impractical to use times tickets should be valid to the end of the same day in the following month, would that affect many people or could it be good publicity for very little cost? It must be better for passenger and TOC if it meant travelling on a quiet Saturday train instead of a packed Friday one.

Of course it would also work the other so instead how about a general concession for 'Monthly Returns' if the last day of validity is a Friday they can also be used the next day? There may have to be a restriction to after 1200, or would it be so little used that iit's not worth worrying? It would be much easier if a "use by" date was printed on the Return ticket, it could be set to always give a full 31 days.

 

[Greenback]

Well, yes, but that wasn't really the question that was asked - it was about monthlies (specifically those covering February).

Semi-related: In some ways it's a bit like the the problem that people born on 29th Feb have - are they legally a year older on 28th Feb or 1st March?

Oops, I seem to have committed the cardinal sin of not reading the post properly!

Anyway, as we have a calendar system that uses unequal months, then some months are going to offer better value than others.

So, yes, a monthly ticket bought on 30 Jan will have its last day of validity of29 Feb in a leap year, but 28 Feb in non leap years.

And similarly, a monthly ticket bought on 1 April will have one less day of validity compared to one bought on 1 August. But that is the price we have to pay for our system of dates.
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If an Outward journey starts at say 1000 on July 18th then a month runs to 0959 on Aug 18th so you don't get a full month currently, more so the later the Outward journey is. As it's impractical to use times tickets should be valid to the end of the same day in the following month, would that affect many people or could it be good publicity for very little cost? It must be better for passenger and TOC if it meant travelling on a quiet Saturday train instead of a packed Friday one.

There would still be the problem of soem months being longer than others!

I encountered quite a few people when in the ticket office were absolutely certain I had worngly issued their season ticket as a ticket issued on 2 Jan was only valid until 1 Jan the following year.

There seems to be a number of people who thing that there are 366 or 367 days in a year, 29, 30, 31 and 32 days in a month and 8 days in a week. If nothing else, this system will help them!

Of course it would also work the other so instead how about a general concession for 'Monthly Returns' if the last day of validity is a Friday they can also be used the next day? There may have to be a restriction to after 1200, or would it be so little used that iit's not worth worrying? It would be much easier if a "use by" date was printed on the Return ticket, it could be set to always give a full 31 days.

This getting a bit complicated now. All the TIS's would have to be reprogrammed in order to give passengers additional validity and therefore some revenue will be lost. I doubt that will be covered by additional passengers drawn to the railway by the extra generosity!

Can't see it happening sorry, and I'm not in favour of adding additional complications. As a customer, it's clear at the moment that if I'm going to New Zealand on 16 Feb, and arriving back on 19 March, I can't get a return to the airport. Under your sytem, I couldn't if it was leap year (I think) but not I could during the other years. Could be wrong though, I'm getting a headache trying to work out 31 days!

 

[calc7]

And any attempt to "standardise" this would see passengers losing out most likely - eg. it would be standardised to 30 days which is less than 365/12.

 

[Greenback]

And any attempt to "standardise" this would see passengers losing out most likely - eg. it would be standardised to 30 days which is less than 365/12.

Naturally. Both ATOC and DfT are naturally averse to anything that could evne posibly lead to a reduction in revenue (and by definition an increase in subsidy).

It's all best left as it is now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Don't forget also, that it's possible to purchase rail season tickets for odd periods such as "one month and two days". In this way, you could buy a season ticket starting on a Monday and finishing on the (fifth) Friday, which might suit you if you don't use the ticket at weekends.

 

[Greenback]

Don't forget also, that it's possible to purchase rail season tickets for odd periods such as "one month and two days". In this way, you could buy a season ticket starting on a Monday and finishing on the (fifth) Friday, which might suit you if you don't use the ticket at weekends.

I've been doing this in 2012 rather than buying an annual ticket. I've been buying odd lengths to account for periods of leave. So far, I forecast it will be slightly cheaper but not having to queue up several times a year (only once to replace the ivneitbaly faded ticket!) to buy the tickets is probably worth more to me, so I think I'll go back to an annual next year.

 

[b0b]

I don't know why the monthly issue is "unfair", I guess its a bit like being paid monthly and I assume it just evens out in the end.

 

[wibble]

I don't know why the monthly issue is "unfair", I guess its a bit like being paid monthly and I assume it just evens out in the end.

And, it's not that different from paying rent for a property as that's always based on calendar months.

 

[Greenback]

And, it's not that different from paying rent for a property as that's always based on calendar months.

The debate always comes around in work during a leap year - why do we have to work an extra day for no extra pay?!!!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yep, in some months you get a better deal than others. So it is, by definition, unfair!

Out of interest, are you doing journeys at weekends? I am guessing this isn't only for commuting Mondays-Fridays as otherwise you'd have got the ticket to start on a Monday and finish on a Friday?

Well the particular ticket I bought was an Oyster travelcard - you can't buy them for 5 days, the relevant choice is 7 days or 1 month.

I asked the question in respect of train season tickets too on the assumption that the answer would apply them as well - but that's evidently not the case because - as your and other replies indicate - you have a much finer degree of control of dates you can buy season tickets for, which I didn't realize.

 

[island]

yorkie didn't mean Monday and Friday in the same week. A travelcard can be issued for 7 days or any period from 1 month up to 1 year, so a ticket for perhaps 1 month and 2 days could run from Monday in week 1 to Friday in week 5. I think you can do this on Oyster as well, but could be wrong.

 

[David Goddard]

It's the same with Railcards - Valid until the end of Current Day-1 in the following year.
ie one bought today would be valid until 30 August next year.
In leap years you just get an extra day!

Logic would expect the following to apply with purchases at the end of Feb in affected years:

Year before a leap year - ie 2011
Bought 28 Feb - expire 27 Feb 2012 (365 days)
Bought 01 Mar - expire 29 Feb 2012 (366 days)

Year of a leap year - ie 2012
Bought 28 Feb - expire 27 Feb 2013 (366 days)
Bought 29 Feb - expire 28 Feb 2013 (366 days)
Bought 01 Mar - expire 28 Feb 2013 (365 days)

Therefore any card bought between 01 Mar 2011 and 29 Feb 2012 would get 366 days. The same as any other annual pass/membership etc really

 

[kieron]

I've been doing this in 2012 rather than buying an annual ticket. I've been buying odd lengths to account for periods of leave. So far, I forecast it will be slightly cheaper

An annual ticket costs about as much of 10 1/2 months' worth of month ones. You get another 20 days from not having an unused ticket over the weekend. If you have 4 weeks' holiday in which you don't touch your season ticket, then it should work out cheaper.

The cost of not being able to buy just before the price review, and the benefit of you having the money instead of the train company, muddy the waters a bit, but I think you would save money that way if you use your season ticket almost exclusively for work. There isn't a lot in it, though.

You could avoid queuing up by buying the ticket on-line. Most TOCs will post a ticket out to you FOC.

The debate always comes around in work during a leap year - why do we have to work an extra day for no extra pay?!!!

You should tell them that it's because the wrong side won the battle of Trafalgar. The French Republican Calendar made the extra day a holiday.

 

[Robsignals]

The debate always comes around in work during a leap year - why do we have to work an extra day for no extra pay?!!!

Pay is based on a year being 365.25 days long with the .25 days pay advanced/held back depending on when an employee joins the company in the 4 year cycle! In theory on leaving the company should calculate the .25 days and adjust the final payslip total accordingly but the admin time would cost more than it's worth, plus the ensuing arguments if it's a deduction.

 

[Mojo]

Pay is based on a year being 365.25 days long with the .25 days pay advanced/held back depending on when an employee joins the company in the 4 year cycle! In theory on leaving the company should calculate the .25 days and adjust the final payslip total accordingly but the admin time would cost more than it's worth, plus the ensuing arguments if it's a deduction.

Does this only apply to monthly paid employees? My company pays us every 4 weeks, so I presume we don't lose out for the leap year. On average (I think) every 17 years there is a 14th payday.

 

[Robsignals]

Does this only apply to monthly paid employees? My company pays us every 4 weeks, so I presume we don't lose out for the leap year. On average (I think) every 17 years there is a 14th payday.

A year is made up of 13 x 4 weeks + 1 day + 0.25 leap day or in other words I haven't a clue! I'm not saying it's written in law but anything 'annual' must involve 0.25 days floating about to be absolutely precise. In practice it's not worth calculating and over a working life it averages out 'near enough' or "it'll all come out in the Humber"...or was it the Wash.