How are you all coping with the £3 cap?

[AndrewE]

In other countries, they realise it is impossible to offer direct buses to everybody so they make it as easy as possible to change. In cities where they achieve high modal share for public transport they manage to get people to change between buses/trams/metros etc. When you have the whole network at your disposal then you have vastly more journey opportunities compared to a direct bus.

Well said. Buses shouldn't be seen (or charged for) in isolation.

 

[markymark2000]

Certainly how it feels. I can’t even find fares tables for many services near me. Is it even a legal requirement to publish them?

Yes it is a legal requirement to publish fare data for operators in England and routes which operate into England via Bus Open Data. However fare data is even worse than the timetables (and that is saying something). A good chunk of operators don't comply or don't refresh the data. Blackpool Transports data for example has never updated since 2020 despite many changes happening to the network since (meaning details on fare stages would have been updated).

 

[Simon75]

Maybe they should have just added the money to the Bus service improvement plans?

 

[derbybusdepot]

Well said. Buses shouldn't be seen (or charged for) in isolation.

Fully agree. There was talk of so called transport hubs in Derby, where people could change between services/modes of travel, perhaps even including park and ride on the same sites.

I think the main problem with the fare cap is that there has never been much of a plan. It was a temporary measure to start with for 3 months, which ended up extended time and time again with questionable benefits. It is somewhat more of a waste of time now, as more normal fares fall below it, more period tickets work out cheaper for regular users - and that is before you get to operators/routes not included in the scheme, and other areas which are still under separate £2 caps! Nice and simple.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Just for balance, for those who think that £2 (or £3) is cheap for a bus fare.

If I plug the fare I paid for my ~13 mile journey in the early 90s (so, after any local subsidies had been effectively prohibited and after privatisation; in other words, a commercial fare) into the BofE inflation calculator, it comes out with - about £2. Prior to the cap, that journey would in fact have cost £3.50. To say nothing of the now more than doubled trip time and more than halved frequency.

 

[richard13]

Just for balance, for those who think that £2 (or £3) is cheap for a bus fare.

If I plug the fare I paid for my ~13 mile journey in the early 90s (so, after any local subsidies had been effectively prohibited and after privatisation; in other words, a commercial fare) into the BofE inflation calculator, it comes out with - about £2. Prior to the cap, that journey would in fact have cost £3.50. To say nothing of the now more than doubled trip time and more than halved frequency.

Yes, the cost of public transport has gone up much faster than general inflation. Conversely car costs have gone up less than general inflation. Hence the difficulty of reducing car travel. (specific costs inflate at different rates to the general average - the reason why can be a useful piece of information.)

As per London, Paris and many other places, franchising is the way forward now, with the council subsidising public transport as much as they like - a few areas are even free. It also disposes with single/return fares and replaces them with 60 or 90 minutes zonal tickets in a single direction or day/week/month unlimited travel in zones. You can then use what ever combination of journeys you need by any mode. Rail use often has a premium charge and time of day may apply.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just for balance, for those who think that £2 (or £3) is cheap for a bus fare.

If I plug the fare I paid for my ~13 mile journey in the early 90s (so, after any local subsidies had been effectively prohibited and after privatisation; in other words, a commercial fare) into the BofE inflation calculator, it comes out with - about £2. Prior to the cap, that journey would in fact have cost £3.50. To say nothing of the now more than doubled trip time and more than halved frequency.

As @richard13 states, bus fares have gone up by more than inflation. BoE inflation is just an average - some items such as clothing and many food items have increased by much less than inflation over that time.

Your comparison also fails to take into consideration TWO major impacts:

• The BSOG amount was halved by the coalition government and removing that automatically meant an increase in fares
• The introduction of ENCTS passes was based on formula that then increasingly failed to adequately reimburse operators. To get around that issue, operators disproportionately increased single fares to get a decent return from ENCTS, whilst increasingly promoting period travel tickets

The latter move does make it expensive for the occasional traveller but for regular passengers, fares aren't extortionate. For instance, my journey into Bath is now £6.00 based on two singles. If I was working perhaps two days a week in Bath, I could get a bundle that equates to £5.60. If I there every day (so 21 days/month), I could get a monthly ticket and that would equate to £4.50 a day.

 

[Ghostbus]

Off peak loadings definitely feel light. I've seen it now on Saturday 27th, Firdya 3rd and now today, Saturday 4th.

It's been a 20% increase here for the cheapest non-trivial return fare.

 

[DDB]

Fully agree. There was talk of so called transport hubs in Derby, where people could change between services/modes of travel, perhaps even including park and ride on the same sites.

I think the main problem with the fare cap is that there has never been much of a plan. It was a temporary measure to start with for 3 months, which ended up extended time and time again with questionable benefits. It is somewhat more of a waste of time now, as more normal fares fall below it, more period tickets work out cheaper for regular users - and that is before you get to operators/routes not included in the scheme, and other areas which are still under separate £2 caps! Nice and simple.

I have a memory which might not be correct that it was first introduced suspiciously close to local government elections. I would suggest in an attempt to shore up the rural elderly Tory vote who had noticed their bus services being withdrawn.
Hopefully franchising or the threat of it will actually allow joined up thinking.

 

[Discuss223]

Just for balance, for those who think that £2 (or £3) is cheap for a bus fare.

If I plug the fare I paid for my ~13 mile journey in the early 90s (so, after any local subsidies had been effectively prohibited and after privatisation; in other words, a commercial fare) into the BofE inflation calculator, it comes out with - about £2. Prior to the cap, that journey would in fact have cost £3.50. To say nothing of the now more than doubled trip time and more than halved frequency.

I've seen many old pictures of buses in the 1990s on Flickr and many of them advertise in the windows things such as "Max Return Fare £1" and it wasn't unknown to have 30 pence fares for short journeys. Deregulation brought about mass competition from operators. For example, in the Derbyshire area alone, there was Hulley's, Bower's, Trent, K&H Doyle, Stagecoach East Midlands, Aston Express & TM Travel all competing for custom. Services were often duplicated too, such as the Chesterfield-Castleton corridor having both Hulley's & Stagecoach East Midlands providing services.

 

[1955LR]

My local bus company serving the routes I sometime use dropped out of the capping scheme a couple of years ago. So no change here just north of Hereford

 

[RT4038]

As per London, Paris and many other places, franchising is the way forward now, with the council subsidising public transport as much as they like - a few areas are even free. It also disposes with single/return fares and replaces them with 60 or 90 minutes zonal tickets in a single direction or day/week/month unlimited travel in zones. You can then use what ever combination of journeys you need by any mode. Rail use often has a premium charge and time of day may apply.

With the pressures on council budgets from Adult & Child social care, home to school transport and Special Education Needs, 'as much as they like' is more likely to be 'as little as possible'. Forget about what happens in London, Paris and many other places - in many areas you'll probably be fighting for anything above the very minimum level of service and maximum level of fares that can be got away with.......

I have a memory which might not be correct that it was first introduced suspiciously close to local government elections. I would suggest in an attempt to shore up the rural elderly Tory vote who had noticed their bus services being withdrawn.
Hopefully franchising or the threat of it will actually allow joined up thinking.

The elderly get bus passes, so by and large are not affected by capping anyway. The cap was introduced as relief to the 'cost of living crisis' - in theory giving cheaper bus fares to everyone, but mainly to those at the poorer end of the scale and more likely to be suffering i.e. bus users . In the time available there was no possibility of a nuanced scheme (the govt. not controlling commercial bus services); it had to be something easy to administer and likely to be accepted by the bus operators.

Unless there is more money on the table, franchising, or the threat of it, is going to achieve little. The laws of economics cannot be suspended for public transport.

My local bus company serving the routes I sometime use dropped out of the capping scheme a couple of years ago. So no change here just north of Hereford

This is, however, a fairly unusual scenario.

 

[Ghostbus]

I have a memory which might not be correct that it was first introduced suspiciously close to local government elections. I would suggest in an attempt to shore up the rural elderly Tory vote who had noticed their bus services being withdrawn.
Hopefully franchising or the threat of it will actually allow joined up thinking.

Unless elderly now means under 65, this makes no sense.

Franchising is happening, just not very quickly. So passengers now have to put up with years of commercially run operators not even caring about whether or not their drivers overcharge passengers in the myriad of cases where two capped singles now falls just under or just over the day ticket.

The only tickets being marketed now the £2 cap is gone, are the BSIP funded multi-operator or multi-modal ones, whether these are actually the cheapest option or not. At least that's what's occurring in my area. I'd be surprised if joined up thinking was producing anything different anywhere else.

 

[jon0844]

I would have thought the elderly most likely to vote Tory are not bothered by the cap, and might even wonder why we're subsidising fares at all over the winter fuel payment. They get free bus travel, so how many will see it as an election issue?

Now I'm not going to suggest all old people are evil and only looking out for themselves; they may indeed care for their children who still pay, but I still doubt it's a major concern for them.

Frankly I'm stunned the Tories ever brought this cap in at all, having shown so little interest in buses over the years - allowing services to be cut back and made near useless through years of budget cuts and clever ways of diverting funds (such as when S106 funding was 'pulled' that paid for our bus service, to help build a bus station, such that our bus was cut before the bus station opened).

 

[RT4038]

Franchising is happening, just not very quickly. So passengers now have to put up with years of commercially run operators not even caring about whether or not their drivers overcharge passengers in the myriad of cases where two capped singles now falls just under or just over the day ticket.

The point of charging fares is to bring in revenue to be able to pay for the outgoings of running the bus service (supplemented in most cases by a taxpayer funded portion) - the costs of, inter alia, wages, fuel, parts and the financing of the business. Bus companies are not trying to minimise this revenue for the convenience of the passenger, any more than other commercial business do.

 

[riceuten]

Non-Arriva locally have taken the opportunity locally to abolish return fares , 10-trip and 3 day tickets, meaning what was a £4 return to Stevenage has become £5.40. For a network that runs, at best 65%-75% of scheduled mileage. The £3 fare is undercut by the standard £2.70 day single within the town.

 

[JKP]

Off peak loadings definitely feel light. I've seen it now on Saturday 27th, Firdya 3rd and now today, Saturday 4th.

It's been a 20% increase here for the cheapest non-trivial return fare.

Yes but the week after Christmas is hardly typical in terms of the numbers travelling. People tend to have different travel patterns around Christmas and New Year. Better to wait to make comparisons next week when conditions are more normal with folk back to work and school. Though January generally tends to be a quiet month for non essential and leisure trips.

 

[Ghostbus]

Yes but the week after Christmas is hardly typical in terms of the numbers travelling. People tend to have different travel patterns around Christmas and New Year. Better to wait to make comparisons next week when conditions are more normal with folk back to work and school. Though January generally tends to be a quiet month for non essential and leisure trips.

I was factoring that in. This is abnormally light loadings even for this time of year. The weather is normal. The seven day pass has always been cheaper than even the £2 cap, so commuter/peak traffic isn't going to tell us anything here.

I could understand it if town was similarly quiet, but it isn't. I'm typing this in a busy shopping mall, people are passing me every second. It's normal busy, compared to weekends before Christmas extremely busy (weather dependent). I came into town on a double-decker with five or so other passengers.

Maybe they're all coming in early and leaving late? I don't know what else explains these off peak light loadings. It's weird.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Your comparison also fails to take into consideration TWO major impacts:

• The BSOG amount was halved by the coalition government and removing that automatically meant an increase in fares
• The introduction of ENCTS passes was based on formula that then increasingly failed to adequately reimburse operators. To get around that issue, operators disproportionately increased single fares to get a decent return from ENCTS, whilst increasingly promoting period travel tickets

To the user, the "why" of it isn't important at all. Only the "what" of it. And the "what" in the case I cite is 2x the fare, 2x the journey time and way less than 1/2 the frequency. Oh, and probably well less than 1/2 the usage, per bus, much less still overall.

 

[Ghostbus]

Just for balance, for those who think that £2 (or £3) is cheap for a bus fare.

If I plug the fare I paid for my ~13 mile journey in the early 90s (so, after any local subsidies had been effectively prohibited and after privatisation; in other words, a commercial fare) into the BofE inflation calculator, it comes out with - about £2. Prior to the cap, that journey would in fact have cost £3.50. To say nothing of the now more than doubled trip time and more than halved frequency.

Is this the same as compound interest? Because if I apply compound interest of 3% to the price I remember paying for a day ticket 25 years ago, it comes out at double. Which is basically what's happened. A 3% rise today, would be about 10p.

Since privatisation, the day ticket has only ever gone up by that kind of small amount, typically once a year, if that. The operator has always seemed to know that to do worse, even just once, is counterproductive.

So if this one off cap jump of 20% has somehow persuaded people that a day ticket is a pretty big deal now (I could easily feed a family of four a healthy main meal with just £5 simply by walking to my local discount supermarket), that's going to lead to nowhere good.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Is this the same as compound interest?

No, it's general average price rises.

 

[Somewhere]

It's still cheaper than what the fare was before the cap came in

 

[Ghostbus]

Well I was briefly reassured to be leaving town right now with 14 others for company on the top deck. Until I realised this one must be running late, as another pulled up behind it before it left. Although how that happens when loadings are this light is anyone's guess.

Everything else seems normal for the time of year, town is clearing out of the daytime footfall and not many are heading in for a night on the tiles. Mine certainly wasn't the only decker waiting to leave with plenty of free seats. Depressing stuff.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To the user, the "why" of it isn't important at all. Only the "what" of it. And the "what" in the case I cite is 2x the fare, 2x the journey time and way less than 1/2 the frequency. Oh, and probably well less than 1/2 the usage, per bus, much less still overall.

Things (the "what") change for reasons (the "why") - if you decide to deny the existence of those factors, there's not much really to say.

You're not seeing bus companies making big profits and those factors are fairly important.

 

[DDB]

Unless elderly now means under 65, this makes no sense.

Franchising is happening, just not very quickly. So passengers now have to put up with years of commercially run operators not even caring about whether or not their drivers overcharge passengers in the myriad of cases where two capped singles now falls just under or just over the day ticket.

The only tickets being marketed now the £2 cap is gone, are the BSIP funded multi-operator or multi-modal ones, whether these are actually the cheapest option or not. At least that's what's occurring in my area. I'd be surprised if joined up thinking was producing anything different anywhere else.

I was thinking that it was in someway providing additional subsidy that kept rural routes going that otherwise would have been withdrawn. Certainly we used to hear of councils removing all council bus subsidy that then led to lots of routes being withdrawn. I don't think we hear about mass withdrawal of routes since it came in but maybe they had already gone.

 

[ricoblade]

Round here it's exposed how ridiculous fares would be without a cap.

I often take the bus 3 miles up to the next village (it's also the next stop) and thought the fare would go down after the cap increase but it's gone up to £2.50.

I can't imagine how much and how prohibitive my longer journeys would be that are excellent value at £3.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Having traveled from York to Goathland on Coastliner yesterday, £3 (£6 return) remains a bargain fare for such a journey. But on shorter journeys in York, I think I'll stick to walking/cycling as £3 on most journeys is ridiculous in York.

 

[1D54]

So i have now purchased rail tickets for work for the whole of January and February at a cost of £94.20 (railcard reduction) If I'd have stuck with the bus on the new cap price it would come in at £234!! Cheerio Arriva Midlands!

 

[ScotGG]

Before fares were increased not just for adults but children and returns removed (it adds up to a lot now) I would have taken two return trips of about 3 miles each way in recent days. None so far and that isn't changing. Bus company lost a few quid now from me and that could well be hundreds over the year. I was even considering giving up the car but increases across the board (it's gone way beyond adult cap with rises for children, returns cut and day tickets up as well as trip bundles all far higher). Sticking with the car.

 

[route101]

Newcastle to Carlisle on Stagecoach for £3 is good value. I wonder what the price was before.