How can ÖBB rectify the problem of lack of long-distance stock?

[Stephen Lee]

The biggest problem of ÖBB is that there are more new long distance routes but lack of suitable stock. There are cases when Regional trains have to replace long distance routes. So how can ÖBB rectify the problem of lack of long-distance stock? Although ÖBB can use IC1 sets cascaded from DB while order new railjets

 

[Austriantrain]

By ordering new stock - which they have done.

- 8 RJ2 sets will start services on the Brenner route sometime in spring, freeing classic sets for other services;
- 19 additional RJ2 for Südbahn services have just been ordered;
- 14 KISS in a 200 km/h version for Wien - Salzburg „stoppers“, freeing RJ sets
- Interregional sets (Siemens Mireo) for inner-alpine lines.

 

[Stephen Lee]

By ordering new stock - which they have done.

framework for new coaches : up to 700.
No of coaches ordered At the moment: 231 nightjet carriages(33 x 7-car)and 72 railjet carriages (8 x 9-car）
option: 397 more. (22 more nightjet rakes and 27 more railjet rakes)
Stadler KISS framework: 186
No of KISSes ordered at the moment:
42 Cityjet version, 4-car
20 Cityjet version, 6-car
14 Railjet Version
3 CAT version
Total 79

 

[StephenHunter]

I believe one issue is a shortage of steel; Ukraine was a massive steel producer, but the war has severely dented production with much of it diverted to reconstruction or the armed forces.

 

[Stephen Lee]

I believe one issue is a shortage of steel; Ukraine was a massive steel producer, but the war has severely dented production with much of it diverted to reconstruction or the armed forces.

Is this anything related to my topic?

By ordering new stock - which they have done.

- 8 RJ2 sets will start services on the Brenner route sometime in spring, freeing classic sets for other services;
- 19 additional RJ2 for Südbahn services have just been ordered;
- 14 KISS in a 200 km/h version for Wien - Salzburg „stoppers“, freeing RJ sets
- Interregional sets (Siemens Mireo) for inner-alpine lines.

1. and 2. Where will the classic sets go?
2. Really? I didn’t know that ÖBB has ordered extra RJ2? Any source related to this?
3. Where will the Traditional RJ sets go?
4. Why don’t ÖBB order InterRegio version Stadler KISS?

By ordering new stock - which they have done.

- 8 RJ2 sets will start services on the Brenner route sometime in spring, freeing classic sets for other services;
- 19 additional RJ2 for Südbahn services have just been ordered;
- 14 KISS in a 200 km/h version for Wien - Salzburg „stoppers“, freeing RJ sets
- Interregional sets (Siemens Mireo) for inner-alpine lines.

For night train stock, will the Sleeping cars/couchette hired from BTEX/RDC be returned once more new nightjets are delivered?

 

[StephenHunter]

Is this anything related to my topic?

Yes, it's slowing down the procurement of new rolling stock.

 

[30907]

1. and 2. Where will the classic sets go?

They're not exactly young, but I would imagine for a start they will replace CityShuttle stock on IC routes (eg via Selzthal) and form relief sets.

3. Where will the Traditional RJ sets go?

On existing routes?

For night train stock, will the Sleeping cars/couchette hired from BTEX/RDC be returned once more new nightjets are delivered?

Almost certainly!

 

[Stephen Lee]

They're not exactly young, but I would imagine for a start they will replace CityShuttle stock on IC routes (eg via Selzthal) and form relief sets.

What is relief sets

On existing routes?

To increase capacity on existing routes by multiple working?

Almost certainly!

The sleeping cars/couchettes can be leased to other operators. ÖBB can still order Nightjet rakes in case of route expansion.

 

[Austriantrain]

What is relief sets

Sets kept in reserve for additional trains (eg in holiday season) or simply to replace normal sets if they are unavailable.

But first, as mentioned, those sets will run on inner alpine routes, mainly Graz - Salzburg- Germany, where ÖBB are currently struggling to provide stock.

 

[DanNCL]

4. Why don’t ÖBB order InterRegio version Stadler KISS?

Some of the routes intended for them aren’t suitable for double deck stock.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Some of the routes intended for them aren’t suitable for double deck stock.

Any examples?

 

[Austriantrain]

Any examples?

Salzburg - Bischofshofen - Zell am See - Wörgl, for instance, has some restrictions for double deck, namely several stretches where they can only run on one of the two tracks.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Sets kept in reserve for additional trains (eg in holiday season) or simply to replace normal sets if they are unavailable.

Do you mean replacement trains I.e. Ersatzzug？

But first, as mentioned, those sets will run on inner alpine routes, mainly Graz - Salzburg- Germany, where ÖBB are currently struggling to provide stock.

Can Graz - Salzburg - Germany use ICE-4 or ICE-L？

 

[Austriantrain]

Do you mean replacement trains I.e. Ersatzzug？

Yes. Or additional trains in peak season.

Can Graz - Salzburg - Germany use ICE-4 or ICE-L？

Yes, but currently without stops at some stations because of low platforms. They do already run on the Tauern (well, sometimes... due to works in Germay, they are often replaced), but skipping two stations for that reason. The Tauern route stations will be adapted soon; it is not planned to use ICE 4 on the Ennstal line, and I don't think ICE-L will run there at all, at least for the foreseeable.

 

[Stephen Lee]

By ordering new stock - which they have done.

- 8 RJ2 sets will start services on the Brenner route sometime in spring, freeing classic sets for other services;
- 19 additional RJ2 for Südbahn services have just been ordered;
- 14 KISS in a 200 km/h version for Wien - Salzburg „stoppers“, freeing RJ sets
- Interregional sets (Siemens Mireo) for inner-alpine lines.

Any source about the 19 additional RJ2 and if they are for the opening of Semmering Base Tunnel?
Also, I wondered if there is a need to order more sets for opening of Koralmbahn and Brenner Base Tunnel

Salzburg - Bischofshofen - Zell am See - Wörgl, for instance, has some restrictions for double deck, namely several stretches where they can only run on one of the two tracks.

And the Simmering route , according to Wikipedia,

Zur Überwindung des Semmering-Passes wurde 1854 die von Carl von Ghega geplante Semmeringbahn eröffnet.

In ihrer Funktion als Teilstück der Südbahn, einer der meistbefahrenen Bahnstrecken Österreichs, verursacht die Semmeringbahn heute erhebliche betriebliche Einschränkungen:

• Die lange Fahrtdauer (circa eine Stunde von Wiener Neustadt nach Mürzzuschlag) ist vor allem im Personenverkehr gegenüber dem Auto nicht mehr konkurrenzfähig.
• Wegen des eingeschränkten Lichtraumprofils in den Tunnels ist kombinierter Güterverkehr (Rollende Landstraße) und der Einsatz von Doppelstockwagen im Personenverkehr nicht möglich.
• Da wegen der starken Steigungen schwere Güterzüge mit Vorspanntriebfahrzeugen geführt oder in mehrere Teile zerlegt werden müssen, entstehen betriebliche Komplikationen und zusätzliche Kosten.
• Die Kurvenradien sind gering und lassen deshalb nur geringe Fahrgeschwindigkeiten zu, was die Streckenkapazität beschränkt.
• Die zahlreichen Kunstbauten verursachen hohe Unterhaltskosten.
• Die engen Kurvenradien führen zu einer starken Abnutzung der Schienen, was die Erhaltung ebenfalls verteuert.
• Unter anderem wegen des Beitritts Sloweniens zur EU 2004 steigt die Nachfrage nach Transportleistungen auf einer europäischen Nord-Süd-Achse.

Translation:

To overcome the Semmering Pass, the Semmering Railway planned by Carl von Ghega was opened in 1854.

In its function as a section of the Southern Railway , one of the busiest railway lines in Austria, the Semmering Railway today causes significant operational restrictions:

• The long journey time (around an hour from Wiener Neustadt to Mürzzuschlag ) is no longer competitive with cars, especially in passenger transport.
• Due to the limited clearance profile in the tunnels, combined freight transport ( rolling highway ) and the use of double-decker wagons in passenger transport are not possible.
• Since heavy freight trains have to be guided with traction units or broken down into several parts due to the steep gradients, operational complications and additional costs arise.
• The curve radii are small and therefore only allow low travel speeds, which limits the route capacity.
• The numerous artificial structures cause high maintenance costs.
• The narrow curve radii lead to heavy wear on the rails, which also makes maintenance more expensive.
• Due, among other things, to Slovenia's accession to the EU in 2004, the demand for transport services on a European north-south axis is increasing.

 

[Austriantrain]

Any source about the 19 additional RJ2

I must admit there does not seem to be official confirmation yet. So "informed sources" - make of it what you will - and I will report back once it's definitive.

and if they are for the opening of Semmering Base Tunnel?
Also, I wondered if there is a need to order more sets for opening of Koralmbahn and Brenner Base Tunnel

No plans yet I know of for the Brenner tunnel.
The order mentioned is related to both Koralm and Semmering, as is the "Interregio" order, because (apart from the Westbahn) the whole long-distance network will be restructured.

And the Simmering route , according to Wikipedia,

Those Interregio sets are not planned to run on the Semmering line. In any case, the plan seems to be to partly single-track the mountain line once the tunnel is open to enable all regular stock, including double-deck, to divert over it when necessary (basically, having one center track in the tunnels instead of two tracks).

 

[Stephen Lee]

No plans yet I know of for the Brenner tunnel.

Brenner Base Tunnel will open in 2032

Those Interregio sets are not planned to run on the Semmering line. In any case, the plan seems to be to partly single-track the mountain line once the tunnel is open to enable all regular stock, including double-deck, to divert over it when necessary (basically, having one center track in the tunnels instead of two tracks).

Would ÖBB think of ordering more Railjet version KISS when semmering base tunnel opens?

 

[Austriantrain]

The 19 additional RJ2 sets have now been confirmed:

https://www.auftrag.at//ShowTender.aspx?action=SHOW&ENTRY_ID=21b0fcb8-90b8-4fac-89ce-76a0bea16833

(link in German)

 

[Stephen Lee]

The 19 additional RJ2 sets have now been confirmed:

https://www.auftrag.at//ShowTender.aspx?action=SHOW&ENTRY_ID=21b0fcb8-90b8-4fac-89ce-76a0bea16833

(link in German)

This means that more Tauruses will be displaced from freight traffic, more old locos retired and more old coaches for Ersatzzug. But I think there is a need to order more Railjet ver. KISS once Semmering Base Tunnel opens.

 

[30907]

But I think there is a need to order more Railjet ver. KISS once Semmering Base Tunnel opens.

The OeBB KISS sets are to keep the semi-fast workings on Westbahn from delaying faster trains AIUI. There are only 2 minor RJ stops between Wr Neustadt and Bruck, and relatively few expresses altogether compared with Westbahn, so delaying the faster trains is much less of an issue. I imagine OeBB would prefer to run RJ only.

 

[Stephen Lee]

The OeBB KISS sets are to keep the semi-fast workings on Westbahn from delaying faster trains AIUI. There are only 2 minor RJ stops between Wr Neustadt and Bruck, and relatively few expresses altogether compared with Westbahn, so delaying the faster trains is much less of an issue. I imagine OeBB would prefer to run RJ only.

But it was mentioned that the ÖBB Railjet KISS can run Wien - Bruck - Graz -Klagenfurt - Villach once Semmering base tunnel opens.

 

[43096]

But it was mentioned that the ÖBB Railjet KISS can run Wien - Bruck - Graz -Klagenfurt - Villach once Semmering base tunnel opens.

“Can” does not necessarily mean “will”.

 

[Stephen Lee]

The OeBB KISS sets are to keep the semi-fast workings on Westbahn from delaying faster trains AIUI. There are only 2 minor RJ stops between Wr Neustadt and Bruck, and relatively few expresses altogether compared with Westbahn, so delaying the faster trains is much less of an issue. I imagine OeBB would prefer to run RJ only.

These are a bit like InterRegio

 

[Austriantrain]

The OeBB KISS sets are to keep the semi-fast workings on Westbahn from delaying faster trains AIUI.

No, timekeeping on these slower RJ services is probably the best of ÖBB long distance traffic; they have enough reserves.

However, this line has frequent stops (on average every 15 minutes), is mostly used by people on shorter distances and RJ sets are not really adequate for them: capacity is too little, passenger exchange suboptimal, the restaurant not needed etc. So a very good decision was made to buy KISS instead.

In most countries, this would be a regional express or Interregio service.

I imagine OeBB would prefer to run RJ only.

Not sure about that (the Taurus is quite a track-basher at 230), and in any case, the RJ2 sets are quite different from RJ1. I except no further orders (even this one hung in the balance for very long).

IMO, ÖBB finally went for RJ2 because anything else would have taken far too long; the procurement would have needed to start at 0. And while KISS would make a lot of sense on much of this route, they cannot serve it before the Semmering tunnel is open. At least as importantly, I except some of these trains to run long distance into Germany (Vienna - Villach - Salzburg- Germany), and a KISS is not really acceptable for this.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Not sure about that (the Taurus is quite a track-basher at 230), and in any case, the RJ2 sets are quite different from RJ1. I except no further orders (even this one hung in the balance for very long).

IMO, ÖBB finally went for RJ2 because anything else would have taken far too long; the procurement would have needed to start at 0. And while KISS would make a lot of sense on much of this route, they cannot serve it before the Semmering tunnel is open. At least as importantly, I except some of these trains to run long distance into Germany (Vienna - Villach - Salzburg- Germany), and a KISS is not really acceptable for this.

I think ÖBB will still order RJ2 for International services

 

[30907]

No, timekeeping on these slower RJ services is probably the best of ÖBB long distance traffic; they have enough reserves.

However, this line has frequent stops (on average every 15 minutes), is mostly used by people on shorter distances and RJ sets are not really adequate for them: capacity is too little, passenger exchange suboptimal, the restaurant not needed etc. So a very good decision was made to buy KISS instead.

Thanks, I obviously misunderstood somewhere along the line