How can Conwy be better served?

[Bletchleyite]

So basically no. It would just be a case of replacing the roads with a railway again and as with the borders railway it’s possible to make a deviation around a supermarket.

Caernarfon would be very possible indeed and I think very useful. There's plenty of space (parking etc) for a single platform terminus near where it used to be. Carrying on to Afon Wen would have a very weak case.

 

[507020]

Caernarfon would be very possible indeed and I think very useful. There's plenty of space (parking etc) for a single platform terminus near where it used to be. Carrying on to Afon Wen would have a very weak case.

It is of course equally possible and useful to continue to Llanberis as it is to Afon Wen, but I would argue that Bangor - Afon Wen should be the highest priority line for reopening in all of Wales as it would go most of the way to reconnecting the isolated networks of the L&NWR, Cambrian and GWR without the complexity of attempting Aberystwyth - Carmarthen and I am sure that with the ETCS signalling, it would be possible for a (Chester - ) Bangor - Porthmadog/Pwllheli service to share the single track with the existing Cambrian line service from Shrewsbury.

Wouldn’t extension of ETCS to Bangor be cheaper than new colour lights should it be reopened, given that the compatible rolling stock is already there and staff are trained on it?

 

[43055]

Back in the 1970's/80's the locals had both trains and buses that could take them all the way from Chester to Holyhead with those services always stopping at Conwy if my memory serves me correctly?

The bus service was the L1 service run by Crossville Buses. Nowadays, you have to take three different bus services along the coast to get from say Chester to Conwy.

in looking at Real Time Trains for Conwy, the first train does not arrive until 11am. Okay, it is a Sunday, but what about anyone needing to get to Conway before 9am? The next service to arrive at Conwy after the 1101 arrives at 14:13pm. Both services are Llandudno Junction to Holyhead services. The only Holyhead - Llandudno junction services to stop are the 1807 and 2045, so you can see why people take to their cars.

The services are a little better week days, with services from Holyhead/Birmingham International stopping every 1 - 2 hours, Crewe every 4 hours, Manchester Airport, Cardiff Central, Shrewsbury and Maesteg either once or twice a day.
Without slowing down existing services that do not stop at Conwy, I am not sure how you will be able to provide a better service, especially if the demand from passengers is not there in the first place.

If it was me though, I would add in if the paths where available more services from Holyhead to both Manchester Airport and Birmingham International that stopped at Conwy. Although, the platforms can only serve two coach trains and since those trains are sometime 3 car class 175 units, it may make it difficult unless 'Local Door Operation' can be used on them.

Todays services are replacement buses hence only running Holyhead - Llandudno Junction and then trains onwards to Chester and beyond. The normal Sunday service has an 0848 to Manchester and 1053 to Holyhead as the first services. Most run to or from Crewe on Sundays in instead of Cardiff/Birmingham the hours that Avanti don't run which is why there are few services until mid-afternoon.

 

[6Gman]

So basically no. It would just be a case of replacing the roads with a railway again and as with the borders railway it’s possible to make a deviation around a supermarket.

I can only assume that you are not familiar with the layout of Caernarfon.

Have a look at google maps. Yes, you can get to the edge of the town along Lon Las Menai. You could put a new station roughly where the Morrisons petrol station is these days.

To get further along the route of the old railway means getting to Crown Street (a road which uses the old railway tunnel under the town centre) and to the St Helen's Road area where it emerges. To get from Lon Las Menai would mean huge disruption to Morrisons, the Victoria Dock development, the Galeri arts centre and Balaclava Road. By disruption I mean extensive demolition and reconstruction. And that's before we ponder what to do with the Welsh Highland Railway!

A single track branch to a single platform at Caernarfon could work. Linking up to the Cambrian at (or near to) Afon Wen would be a HUGE project for little benefit.

This is not "a deviation round a supermarket".

 

[HSTEd]

I have a slightly esoteric solution to improve access from Liverpool etc to the North-East Wales coastal area.

What about a 3S ropeway from West Kirby station, you appear to be able to cross using the road and Morrisons next to the station to avoid going over any houses.

You can then cross the estuary, comparatively, cheaply and connect to the railway with a new station near Ffynonngroew. Given the distance, almost exactly 9,000m, journey times would be roughly 18 minutes or so.
Liverpool Lime Street to West Kirby is around 36 minutes, and connection between Merseyrail and the cableway is very short due to the high frequency of both modes. So probably about an hour to Ffynonngroew.

That's substantially faster than the train can ever reach Flint with favourable connections (~1h10-1hr15 depending on the timetable), and it likely significantly cuts the journey times to Prestatyn et al.

However the railway station and further connection is a bit annoying.

Alternatively, you could, if you had a midway station near Talacre to reduce the length of the ropeway loop, have a continuous ropeway from West Kirby station to very near Prestatyn station without passing over anything but railway property, commercial buildings and caravans. No permanent houses. Total route length would be about 15,000m, for 30-ish minute end to end journey times and a journey time from central Liverpool to Prestatyn of about 70 minutes even with connections.

Turn up and go journeys at 70 minutes total journey time, as opposed to the 75-90 (normally 80+) minutes with lower frequencies

But probably too expensive in the current economic climate.

 

[zwk500]

I have a slightly esoteric solution to improve access from Liverpool etc to the North-East Wales coastal area.

What about a 3S ropeway from West Kirby station, you appear to be able to cross using the road and Morrisons next to the station to avoid going over any houses.

You can then cross the estuary, comparatively, cheaply and connect to the railway with a new station near Ffynonngroew. Given the distance, almost exactly 9,000m, journey times would be roughly 18 minutes or so.
Liverpool Lime Street to West Kirby is around 36 minutes, and connection between Merseyrail and the cableway is very short due to the high frequency of both modes. So probably about an hour to Ffynonngroew.

That's substantially faster than the train can ever reach Flint with favourable connections (~1h10-1hr15 depending on the timetable), and it likely significantly cuts the journey times to Prestatyn et al.

However the railway station and further connection is a bit annoying.

Alternatively, you could, if you had a midway station near Talacre to reduce the length of the ropeway loop, have a continuous ropeway from West Kirby station to very near Prestatyn station without passing over anything but railway property, commercial buildings and caravans. No permanent houses. Total route length would be about 15,000m, for 30-ish minute end to end journey times and a journey time from central Liverpool to Prestatyn of about 70 minutes even with connections.

Turn up and go journeys at 70 minutes total journey time, as opposed to the 75-90 (normally 80+) minutes with lower frequencies

But probably too expensive in the current economic climate.

It's innovative, but very much a 'Boris-level' solution, which usually don't live up to expectations and end up shovelling money down the drain.

 

[HSTEd]

which usually don't live up to expectations and end up shovelling money down the drain.

Given past performance, it sounds exactly like a scheme Network Rail would approve then!

These ropeways are increasingly being recognised as legitimate means of public transport globally however, issues with the silly London Air Line aside.

 

[zwk500]

Given past performance, it sounds exactly like a scheme Network Rail would approve then!

It's the Sec of State who approves Schemes!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2022 ==

My justification is that closing flat public roads is easier than having to compulsory purchase or demolish anyone’s private house or other buildings.

You'd be very, very wrong.

I have looked at maps and thought a tunnel was involved. Could the station actually be in the tunnel?

Not in the existing one. It's got a rather important road in it, aside from the fact it's on a gradient and curve which modern standards don't allow for.

Yes I know that wouldn’t be cheap.

That's, ahem, putting it mildly.

I’m not going to forget about the branch to Llanberis for obvious reasons.

What obvious reasons? There's no reason to put the branch back when a well-planned bus could just as easily do the job. 'There used to be a railway here' is not a justification for a new line.

Does the WHR actually need so much of the width of the trackbed that it couldn’t coexist with a standard gauge line?

Looking at how much room is left for the foot/cycle path (a far more useful community asset, as it happens) https://www.google.com/maps/@53.130...4!1siXa7CI1b4JcclknIJBQFbA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Yes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For all I agree it would never go further than a station in one of the car parks by Morrisons, the tunnel road is NOT important, it is very much underused. If there were ever any structural issues with it it would probably close as a road and barely anyone would notice. I have driven through it but had to go out of my way to do so.

It may have been important pre the main road. I sort of recall it being busier as a kid.

 

[zwk500]

For all I agree it would never go further than a station in one of the car parks by Morrisons, the tunnel road is NOT important, it is very much underused. If there were ever any structural issues with it it would probably close as a road and barely anyone would notice. I have driven through it but had to go out of my way to do so.

Fair enough, I've only been to the town once but it did look reasonably busy for the brief time we were there. From a map it looks like it links to a tourist area, but if somebody's got proper local experience I'll defer to them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair enough, I've only been to the town once but it did look reasonably busy for the brief time we were there. From a map it looks like it links to a tourist area, but if somebody's got proper local experience I'll defer to them.

It's not on the main route from the A487 (not A55, sorry) to the parking there. As I added to my post the 1990s new road probably reduced its importance. If it closed as a road hardly anyone would notice.

 

[507020]

I can only assume that you are not familiar with the layout of Caernarfon.

Have a look at google maps. Yes, you can get to the edge of the town … And that's before we ponder what to do with the Welsh Highland Railway!

A single track branch to a single platform at Caernarfon could work. Linking up to the Cambrian at (or near to) Afon Wen would be a HUGE project for little benefit.

This is not "a deviation round a supermarket".

I have actually visited Caernarfon and Llanberis several times so I am more familiar with them than some places I have mentioned. I would think of it the other way round. A single platform terminus at Caernarfon has little benefit compared to a single platform terminus at Llanberis and a connection to the Cambrian.

The reopened Borders Railway which I am yet to travel on certainly does include deviations around roads and a supermarket which had been built on the trackbed, although I am aware why it doesn’t reach the extant station platform at Melrose.

You'd be very, very wrong.

I’m thinking of it in terms of being physically easier to do the work. Yes more people might protest.

Not in the existing one. It's got a rather important road in it, aside from the fact it's on a gradient and curve which modern standards don't allow for.

The idea is that with a railway running in 3 directions from the town (and it being bounded by water in the other) that road would lose rather a lot of it’s importance.

That's, ahem, putting it mildly.

I have put the whole thing mildly, perhaps because I would enjoy the challenge of reopening the line single handed.

What obvious reasons? There's no reason to put the branch back when a well-planned bus could just as easily do the job. 'There used to be a railway here' is not a justification for a new line.

Rather than ‘There used to be a railway here’ how about ‘This is much too big of a town not to have a railway’, ‘The Welsh network is too fragmented I can’t possibly go from Bangor to Pwllheli via Shrewsbury’ or ‘The railway could benefit from having Caernarfon and Llanberis as destinations as much as they could benefit from being rail served’ as justification.

Snowdon itself as a tourist attraction and not the only one in Llanberis being the obvious reason not to settle only for Menai Bridge - Afon Wen.

It's not on the main route from the A487 (not A55, sorry) to the parking there. As I added to my post the 1990s new road probably reduced its importance. If it closed as a road hardly anyone would notice.

And if it opened as a railway, I’m guessing a lot of people would notice.

 

[daodao]

@507020

Have you looked at a map? Travelling from Conwy and points east thereof to Llanberis via Bangor and Caernarfon is roundabout compared with travelling direct from the A5/A55 junction via the A4244. For those using public transport, there is a regular direct bus service (S2) from Llanberis to Bangor, calling at the railway station for train connections. The Caernarfon-Llanberis line was closed for regular passenger services in 1930, so I cannot imagine its re-opening to be value for money, even if it was remotely practicable.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Really the platforms at Conwy need lengthening. If this isn’t possible due to their location, maybe the station would need re-siting.

I struggled to see any feasibility for that when I last looked, so it'll always have to be SDO or local door.

Could the platforms at Conwy station perhaps be lengthened by - (ahem) - demolishing / rebuilding a small part of the town walls, in particular, the 1848 archway?

 

[zwk500]

Could the platforms at Conwy station perhaps be lengthened by - (ahem) - demolishing / rebuilding a small part of the town walls, in particular, the 1848 archway?

It depends whether the walls either side of the arch are considered to still be the originals or not. However, as the line runs on an embankment immediately outside the walls the cost of extending the platform beyond the walls may be prohibitive even if a solution to the walls could be found.

In theory, you can get about 140m between the Tunnel mouth and the walls, which would be enough for a 6x23m train, or 5x25m when Avanti get their AT300 sets. Would probably need a derogation for platform width though, and would cost a bomb even without touching the walls.
The other option would be to move the station to the other side of the tunnel, immediately north of the walls, but given the rarity of anything longer than 140m needing to be fully platformed I can't see that being worth the money.

 

[markymark2000]

Rather than ‘There used to be a railway here’ how about ‘This is much too big of a town not to have a railway’, ‘The Welsh network is too fragmented I can’t possibly go from Bangor to Pwllheli via Shrewsbury’ or ‘The railway could benefit from having Caernarfon and Llanberis as destinations as much as they could benefit from being rail served’ as justification.

This is one of the missing links which Traws Cymru fills in and should really do through tickets for the T2. So many journey opportunities there. Bangor to link to Porthmadog for links to stations to Pwllheli and Mach stops. Mach for connections to Tywyn and Shrewsbury stations.

Direct links from Bangor station to Porthmadog, Minfordd, Mach, Bow Street and Aberystwyth.

Of course new destinations being Caernarfon and Dollgellau.

Huge potential there if they do train tickets on the T2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Huge potential there if they do train tickets on the T2.

With most of Traws being tendered, Wales is in the unique position to do that with most of Traws, but I seem to recall it actively decided not to, which is beyond bizarre.

 

[6Gman]

For all I agree it would never go further than a station in one of the car parks by Morrisons, the tunnel road is NOT important, it is very much underused. If there were ever any structural issues with it it would probably close as a road and barely anyone would notice. I have driven through it but had to go out of my way to do so.

It may have been important pre the main road. I sort of recall it being busier as a kid.

That's my experience too - the road through the tunnel is not heavily used. The stretch through the tunnel isn't a big issue (assuming it meets current standards - which it may not); the bigger issue is how you could get any railway to the tunnel at either end! On the northern side you have Morrisons, Galeri, Victoria Dock etc. and on the southern side you've got the slate quay area. And all of this around the castle and walls so putting in bridges etc would raise huge issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's my experience too - the road through the tunnel is not heavily used. The stretch through the tunnel isn't a big issue (assuming it meets current standards - which it may not); the bigger issue is how you could get any railway to the tunnel at either end! On the northern side you have Morrisons, Galeri, Victoria Dock etc. and on the southern side you've got the slate quay area. And all of this around the castle and walls so putting in bridges etc would raise huge issues.

Looking at the map, it seems clear that the natural flow of traffic through Caernarfon prior to the flyover being built would have been down what is now the B4119, along a road at the back of what is now the Balaclafa car park (which is on the old trackbed), through the tunnel then along to what is now the roundabout where the minor road joins that A road. Thus, the 1980s/90s (I don't know the exact age of it) flyover and major A road diversion seems to have rendered the tunnel somewhat unnecessary and of very low usage now.

Balaclafa Road and Crown St (the latter now goes into the tunnel) would I think not have existed back then.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think it makes more sense to keep the Liverpools and Manchesters as the slower services. A significant part of the market from those cities is tourism, and Shotton and Flint aside, pretty much all stations along the coast are tourist destinations in some form.

Surely tourists want a fast journey too, and I would have thought that Wyddfa/Eryri (and therefore Bangor and/or Blaenau Ffestiniog) would be a more significant destination for the tourists than many of the other stations in north Wales?

West of Chester, I think the minimum pattern should be:

• 1tph Liverpool - Chester - Llandudno (all stops except between Runcorn and Liverpool where it would be as now)
• 1tph Chester - Holyhead calling at Flint, Rhyl, Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Holyhead only*
• 0.5tph Chester - Bangor calling at Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Jn, Conwy and Bangor (with a planned extension to Caernarfon)
• 0.5tph Chester - Bangor calling at Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Jn, Conwy and Bangor (with a planned extension to Caernarfon)
• 1tph Llandudno Junction** - Holyhead all stops
• 0.5tph Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog all stops
• 0.5tph Llandudno - Llandudno Junction all stops***

Or, to put it another way, everywhere (except the Blaenau branch) gets at least an hourly service; the Blaenau branch gets 0.5tph, the Llandudno branch, Conwy, Colwyn Bay, Holyhead and Prestatyn get 2tph, Shotton gets 1.5tph and (if I've got this right) Flint, Rhyl, Llandudno Junction and Bangor get 3tph.

* my idea is that this path would, three times a day, be taken up by the three Cardiff-Holyhead expresses (with the other calls being Wrexham General, Shrewsbury, Hereford (maybe) and Newport only) - the other hours would either run to Manchester**** or Crewe/Birmingham/London*****

** this should not actually start/terminate at Llandudno Junction, but could be any of the following:

1. a portion off the Chester-Llandudno stopper every hour
2. an hourly Llandudno-Holyhead service that runs by itself
3. as item 2 above but running as a portion with the Conwy valley unit every two hours
   

*** not needed if a Llandudno-Holyhead service provides this service under the above provisions

**** With the issue of the Castlefield corridor partly in-mind, I would replace the current Northern Leeds-Chester and TfW Manchester-Llandudno services with an hourly Northern Manchester Airport to Chester service (calling at all or most stations using 195s) and a fast TfW from Stalybridge calling at Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows, Warrington BQ and Chester only (operated by 175s or similar). This fast TfW from Manchester could be either the fast to Holyhead (in the hours the Cardiff express doesn't run) or the semi-fast to Bangor/Caernarfon (every hour)

***** Birmingham or London would presumably have to be post-HS2, and would be via (those in a hurry to get to London would change at Crewe, any through running beyond Birmingham would be so that Wolverhampton-Euston and Bangor/Holyhead-Birmingham through services can both be provided using a single train/path between Wolverhampton and New Street instead of two)

The hourly 197-operated TfW Liverpool-Llandudno service would call at Frodsham and Helsby half an hour ahead/behind the Northern stopper to/from Manchester, giving those two stations a half-hourly service to Chester.

Post HS2 it is worth giving consideration to terminating the service from Cardiff etc at Chester, and replacing it with a service from Holyhead to Birmingham International via Stafford as used to run, or somehow portion working both. It can't be pathed now, though.

It's only Wolverhampton to Birmingham that supposedly couldn't be pathed now isn't it? I would replace most of the Cardiff-Holyhead trips with Cardiff-Chester and Crewe-Holyhead now, without waiting for HS2, leaving just the three expresses each way which shouldn't be trying to fit into the standard pattern with the Holyhead-Birmingham runs anyway.

QUOTE="507020, post: 5952231, member: 84876"]If there are to be Bangor terminating services, could these potentially be extended to Llanberis/Afon Wen subject to reopening?

Not until you find a way of getting through Caernarfon.[/QUOTE]My interpretation of what I'm seeing on Google Earth is that getting a single line through Caernarfon isn't a major problem - there's no buildings that look like they need demolishing just some car parks to be messed around with to allow the line to run through said car parks. Once you get to the Welsh Highland railway, run alongside it if possible and mix the guage otherwise. The Welsh Highland already has interaction with the Cambrian Coast ETCS at the flat crossing near Porthmadog which shows that safety issues can be dealt with.

The bigger issues in my mind are where to put the National Rail station in Caernarfon (the big car park it could possibly be built on is a fair walk from things like the castle and bus station) and whether a new rail route would be time competitive. Unless the intended destination is Pwllheli, Afon Wen seems like a distraction to me - if you want to link up with the Cambrian Coast Line towards Harlech and Machynlleth a brand new more direct alignment is needed south of Bryncir.

Why not? TfW only have MK4s as they didn't have enough 197s.

The original plan was to have DMUs on both services

TfW have always planned to have mark 4s on the Holyhead-Cardiff express services (three trains per day). Yes the fleet plan has changed from 3 sets to 8 (coupled with the new plan to use them to Manchester) but they were always in the plan for the north Wales coast as the successor to 'Gerald'.