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How can CrossCountry realistically be improved?

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Bletchleyite

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Much as the 22xs have their issues, I'm not sure it's really possible to say there's nowhere else they *could* go. Anywhere that runs 158s or 170s could in theory take them

The capacity is considerably reduced compared to a 158 or 170 of equivalent length, and the fuel consumption is appalling. Absolutely no reason for a 158 or 170 operator to want them, particularly not now the whole Welsh 158 and 175 fleet is to become available.

, and likewise there's the GWR HSTs which for the most part work over routes where 22xs already do.

You could use them instead of GWR HSTs, but then that's one microfleet for another, and the same thing - 125mph rolling stock is not well suited to rural regional expresses.
 
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Jim the Jim

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The DOT has no money for XC to buy more new stocks.
But the problems with XC have been apparent for some time, and many (maybe even most??) other operators have received new stock in that time, in at least some cases with arguably less need for it than there is for new XC stock. One suspects the money could have been made available for the cross-country routes if the DfT had decided to treat them as more of a priority ...
 

John Luxton

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Sorry, "under any circumstances" is way too extreme and removes too much operational flexibility. The snobbish elitist language l'm not going to comment on...
Certainly isn't snobbish.

I am no toff - but if I pay more for something I don't expect anyone else to get the same for less.
 

daodao

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As XC are short of carriages, why not remove one of their routes (specifically Manchester-Birmingham) and leave XC with the same stock, but direct them to lengthen their remaining services to relieve overcrowding?
 
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driverd

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As has been said up thread if they constantly fail to produce the required level of service they should be removed and replaced with a company that can

Okay. So we tell arriva where to go and replace them with who? DfT? First? Stagecoach?

Take your pick, it doesn't really matter.

The train crew stay. The marketing team stay, the fleet team stay, the planning team stay, the control room staff stay. The contract with bombardier and the fleet arrangements stay. The senior management stay. The operation still has the same number of trains, with the same timetable to run, with the same limitations and drawbacks.

We can remove the operator as some form of punishment if you like but it's highly unlikely to make a significant change to the service delivered.

Why people see this as some form of magic solution completely escapes me. Sure, if we want to 'punish' arriva, it might have the desired effect - although that will depend on the financial state of the operation - are the DfT lining arrivas pockets, or is it the other way around?
 

Shernan

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XC is not a priority. It's not part of leveling up the north nor.it heads to London like most main routes do.
But the problems with XC have been apparent for some time, and many (maybe even most??) other operators have received new stock in that time, in at least some cases with arguably less need for it than there is for new XC stock. One suspects the money could have been made available for the cross-country routes if the DfT had decided to treat them as more of a priority ...
 

Wolfie

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XC is not a priority. It's not part of leveling up the north nor.it heads to London like most main routes do.
Levelling up, if you believe the hype, is supposed to apply to the whole country. Let the Government tell the Midlands it doesn't apply there and see what happens come the next general election...
 

The Planner

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As XC are short of carriages, why not remove one of their routes (specifically Manchester-Birmingham) and leave XC with the same stock, but direct them to lengthen their remaining services to relieve overcrowding?
How many sets does that provide them with and who/what replaces them and how long does that take to implement?
 

paddy1

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There is no excuse whatsoever for XC to be operating trains that overcrowded. With the halved frequency, they have enough rolling stock to run everything, or nearly everything, as double sets plus the HSTs.
Exactly. They are running half the normal frequency, so should be doubling up so that there is no reduction in capacity. But that is not happening in many cases, and certainly not between Birmingham and Manchester on Sundays. And it not a case of 'unit failure at last minute and unable to find a replacement'. It is the same trains every Sunday that are only four or five coaches on that route and so it is planned that way. If XC were still obligated to run trains half hourly, then at least you would be getting at least eight coaches every hour. A four or five coach train once an hour is not acceptable between the UK's second and third cities, especially on a Sunday which is one of the busiest days of the week on XC.
 

JonathanH

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They are running half the normal frequency, so should be doubling up so that there is no reduction in capacity. But that is not happening in many cases, and certainly not between Birmingham and Manchester on Sundays.
It isn't just about stock though. There will be practical issues about how many units can be at particular stabling facilities overnight and the paths that get units from the stabling points to the first station.
 

HowardGWR

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But if they have the same amount of stock that they had, pre pandemic, what if the original timetable was to be restored? How could they fulfil it.? Something does not add up here.
 

Manutd1999

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Not sure it will help the immediate problems, but I would standardise the XC service as 4x core routes, each served once hourly:

Plymouth - Exeter - Bristol - Birmingham
Bournemouth - Southampton - Reading - Birmingham
Birmingham - Manchester
Birmingham - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh

Because these services all arrive/depart New Street within a few minutes of each other, it should be possible to alternate destinations, such that Plymouth-Edinburgh, Plymouth-Manchester, Bournemouth-Edinburgh and Bournemouth-Manchester are all served once per two hours.

The case for additional, second hourly, services on key city pairs (Birmingham-Manchester/Bristol etc) could then be considered on an individual basis. For example, an additional Manchester-Birmingham might be better served by a different operator with EMUs, whereas Birmingham-Bristol could be a standalone XC route, similar to the Birmingham-Nottingham 'extras' which already exist.
 

paddy1

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It isn't just about stock though. There will be practical issues about how many units can be at particular stabling facilities overnight and the paths that get units from the stabling points to the first station.

It isn't just about stock though. There will be practical issues about how many units can be at particular stabling facilities overnight and the paths that get units from the stabling points to the first station.
In the short term, maybe. In the long run, companies adjust operationally accordingly to accommodate such changes - in this case from half hourly to hourly but requiring double formations.
 

JonathanH

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In the short term, maybe. In the long run, companies adjust operationally accordingly to accommodate such changes - in this case from half hourly to hourly but requiring double formations.
It would appear to still be the 'short term' in the context of these arrangements to run double formations.
 

mmh

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The capacity is considerably reduced compared to a 158 or 170 of equivalent length, and the fuel consumption is appalling. Absolutely no reason for a 158 or 170 operator to want them, particularly not now the whole Welsh 158 and 175 fleet is to become available.

Really? A cross-country 221 coach with an accessible toilet, no wheelchair space: 70 seats.

A TPE 185 coach with an accessible toilet, no wheelchair space: 68 seats.
 

TheBigD

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Really? A cross-country 221 coach with an accessible toilet, no wheelchair space: 70 seats.

A TPE 185 coach with an accessible toilet, no wheelchair space: 68 seats.

A cross country 221 carriage with an accessible toilet has either 62 seats (coach B), or 66 seats (coach C).
None of them have 70 seats.
 

43096

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Okay. So we tell arriva where to go and replace them with who? DfT? First? Stagecoach?

Take your pick, it doesn't really matter.

The train crew stay. The marketing team stay, the fleet team stay, the planning team stay, the control room staff stay. The contract with bombardier and the fleet arrangements stay. The senior management stay. The operation still has the same number of trains, with the same timetable to run, with the same limitations and drawbacks.

We can remove the operator as some form of punishment if you like but it's highly unlikely to make a significant change to the service delivered.

Why people see this as some form of magic solution completely escapes me. Sure, if we want to 'punish' arriva, it might have the desired effect - although that will depend on the financial state of the operation - are the DfT lining arrivas pockets, or is it the other way around?
Who the franchise holder is does make a difference. Look at how East Midlands has dropped performance and standards since Abellio took over. Same TOC management to a very large degree in the new operation, but the service has disintegrated. Stagecoach's rail business had a proper railwayman in charge and I very much doubt such a decline would have been accepted had Stagecoach retained the operation.
 

mmh

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A cross country 221 carriage with an accessible toilet has either 62 seats (coach B), or 66 seats (coach C).
None of them have 70 seats.
68 according to their seat map. But anyway, the point stands. There is no magic increase in seat numbers by getting rid of proper vestibules (which should be needed on a long distance train), and the Voyager layout is not significantly lower in seating capacity than other trains, despite the frequent claims of people on here to the contrary.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Really? A cross-country 221 coach with an accessible toilet, no wheelchair space: 70 seats.
A TPE 185 coach with an accessible toilet, no wheelchair space: 68 seats.
No-one mentioned 185s, did they?
 

TheBigD

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68 according to their seat map. But anyway, the point stands. There is no magic increase in seat numbers by getting rid of proper vestibules (which should be needed on a long distance train), and the Voyager layout is not significantly lower in seating capacity than other trains, despite the frequent claims of people on here to the contrary.

The XC seats maps clearly show the seats. If you wish you can count them. You won't find 68 though...

 

tbtc

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A few comments (that I may have made before, because, let's face it, we've had this discussion before, and will continue to do so until someone takes a proper decision about XC)

XC is always going to be a tough set of routes - they generally need subsidy - they overlap with lots of other franchises (and therefore can't be easily tweaked given the fixed paths through various junctions etc) - they don't sit neatly into one region so aren't a political priority - it's always going to play second fiddle to either "Express London Services That Are Used By Lots Of MPs" or "Shorter Services That Stay Within A Region And Therefore Regional Politicians/ Representatives Have More 'Ownership' Of"

Most of the blame lies with the Government(s) - the franchise has had short term extension after short term extension - that's not Arriva's fault

HS2 has been a great excuse for Westminster to sit on their hands here - why take radical action to XC and upset people when HS2 will "fix" the Birmingham to Manchester/ Leeds services in only ten years time?

The need for fast accelerating trains capable of running at 125mph means that there's not a lot of scope for replacing Voyagers with anything else (you can take the similar trains from Avanti and EMR, of course, but replacement of the existing trains seems off the menu) - you aren't going to be able to rewrite the paths through various bottlenecks just to allow them to run your favourite trains (obligatory 442s reference etc)

Please nobody suggest cascading 125mph trains with end doors and terrible seating arrangements on the ex-Central CityLink routes, or introducing new services to Liverpool/Brighton etc (too late, I know...)

Similarly, worrying about taking trains out of action to fiddle about with the seats seems a bit of a luxury given that we need as many units in service each day as possible

Ideally I'd prioritise a regular EMU from Manchester to Birmingham over the smaller number of passengers doing through journeys to Bournemouth/ Bristol etc but that relies on platform space at New Street/ sufficient electricity supplies/ annoying the kind of people who prefer long distance links over having lots of seats on the kind of shorter distances that passengers are more likely to do on a typical day

Not all of these problems are XCs to "solve". Princess made XC the "default" TOC on a number of markets where it previously only had a smaller presence (e.g. there were only three trains per day from Edinburgh to Newcastle which were more about getting HSTs to/from Craigentinny). RRNE used to run a Leeds - Westgate - Meadowhall - Sheffield service every couple of hours (that occasionally extended to Dronfield/Chesterfield) but gave it up when Voyagers started running hourly from Leeds to Sheffield - similarly RRNW used to run services from Manchester to Birmingham - SWT from Reading to Winchester - GNER dropped the Doncaster stop on a number of Newcastle/ Edinburgh services leaving XC to handle much of the Doncaster - York/ Newcastle passengers - GNER similarly dropped the daytime services to Glasgow Central meaning anyone from Clydeside to Newcastle/ York switched to XC - there's no reason why other TOCs can't step up in certain areas where XC struggles to meet demand, as TPE later did between Leeds to Newcastle and GWR are doing with HSTs from Bristol to Exeter and Arriva's Northern franchise promised to do for Leeds - Sheffield - don't assume that only XC can solve these problems. If GWR extended some of their London - Reading - Oxford services to Banbury then that'd provide opportunities between the Thames Valley and West Midlands by changing onto Chiltern services

I've suggested before (and will continue to suggest) that XC focus more on the "core" (roughly York/ Manchester to Bristol/ Reading) - I'm not saying that they give up on the extremities but under the pre-Covid timetable there were a lot of Voyagers operating beyond the core at any one time. To provide one daily train per day from Aberdeen to Birmingham means a Voyager spending around eleven hours a day north of Edinburgh (which must be a real hassle in terms of staffing to provide just one train a day - given that you need the route knowledge, the awkward diagrams etc).

Lastly, someone probably needs to have a difficult conversation about what XC services should focus on - it can be fine for a train to be a mix of different passenger types (the person travelling hundreds of miles might be sat next to half a dozen other people at different times as the service sees a turnover of various short distance passengers on the adjacent seat) - but is it worth providing more seats on the "core" if it means significantly reducing the number of through trains from Edinburgh to Plymouth? Is it better if we can attract a few more people to abandon cars to do journeys of around an hour if it means losing half the Edinburgh to Plymouth market to air? Or do we keep pretending that we can serve every market at the same time with no compromises?
 

driverd

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Who the franchise holder is does make a difference. Look at how East Midlands has dropped performance and standards since Abellio took over. Same TOC management to a very large degree in the new operation, but the service has disintegrated. Stagecoach's rail business had a proper railwayman in charge and I very much doubt such a decline would have been accepted had Stagecoach retained the operation.

But thats a very different example - because there has been vast and sweeping change to, amongst other things but in particular, rolling stock.

You can speculate that this may have occurred differently under stagecoach, but you'd never really know.

The point I was making was that, beyond the day to day running, there's little scope for TOC intervention in any of the large costs outside what the DfT agree/allow. To compare like with like, we would have to find a TOC where the theme has been to make no change from the scope and operation of the previous franchise. Changing who runs the franchise leaves little open to alteration, in terms of the complaints being made by the OP.
 

TheBigD

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The extremities generally use a voygaer (or 2) in marginal time.

Cutting the extremities will certainly save crew and unit miles but doesn't do much for improving capacity on the central core.

If you take Aberdeen (0820 departure) for instance, south bound it leaves Edinburgh at 1105. If the Voyager was used on the standard xc pattern you be looking at something like Birmingham 0503, Leeds 0705 Newcastle 0830 and arriving Edinburgh around 1010, before forming the 1105 southbound. Given LNER run a 0705 Leeds-Aberdeen it doesn't really need a Voyager in a similar time between Leeds and Edinburgh.

Similar for Penzance. Pre covid, 0630, 0830, and 0950 from Penzance. At best cutting these would mean a possible earlier Birmingham to Plymouth service but not a lot else.

One thing I think should be looked at is north of York. If it is possible to speed up all the Reading-Newcastle services so that they take just 2hr45m and overtake the previous XC xx03 departure from Birmingham to Newcastle, which has a journey time of around 3hr35m. Pre covid I think only about 3-4 services managed it.
 
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172007

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The extremities generally use a voygaer (or 2) in marginal time.

Cutting the extremities will certainly save crew and unit miles but doesn't do much for improving capacity on the central core.

If you take Aberdeen (0820 departure) for instance, south bound it leaves Edinburgh at 1105. If the Voyager was used on the standard xc pattern you be looking at something like Birmingham 0503, Leeds 0705 Newcastle 0830 and arriving Edinburgh around 1010, before forming the 1105 southbound. Given LNER run a 0705 Leeds-Aberdeen it doesn't really need a Voyager in a similar time between Leeds and Edinburgh.

Similar for Penzance. Pre covid, 0630, 0830, and 0950 from Penzance. At best cutting these would mean a possible earlier Birmingham to Plymouth service but not a lot else.

One thing I think should be looked at is north of York. If it is possible to speed up all the Reading-Newcastle services so that they take just 2hr45m and overtake the previous XC xx03 departure from Birmingham to Newcastle, which has a journey time of around 3hr35m. Pre covid I think only about 3-4 services managed it.
Have always thought that one thing XC should try is to install at certain locations Ticket Gates. Manchester Picadilly, New St, Leeds to name a few and with GB railways change the ticket system so more tickets say Northern, EM, West Mids only to remove commuters off XC in places where local services run. This would reduce significant overcrowding.

It would be difficult to do and would need a completely new culture as to how some stations are operated regarding platforms etc.

New St has always amased me that when redeveloped the Barriers where it designed to cover specific platforms to stop operator specific ticket holders from travelling on the world services. Revenue protection is odd, we hot passengers hard for mistakes but often on the flip side revenue protection is also a lot lot more miss than hit.
 

Bletchleyite

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Really? A cross-country 221 coach with an accessible toilet, no wheelchair space: 70 seats.

A TPE 185 coach with an accessible toilet, no wheelchair space: 68 seats.

I didn't mention 185s, which are very low density. Though compare how much you can luxuriate in those 68 seats in the 185 (almost all tables plus a few generously spaced airline seats) compared with being crammed into the same number on a Voyager in about 2/3 of the length due to all the wasted space.

But.

I said the whole unit, not just the middle vehicles. One issue with Voyagers is that the end vehicles have much lower capacity. So a 4-car XC Voyager has 26+66+66+42 = 200, while a pair of 2-car XC 170s would give you 54+61+54+61 = 230. If your hypothetical 170 was a 4-car set with two XC layout middle coaches, you'd get to a huge 275 (54+61+80+80). Even if you lost a few of those for another bog and a bit more first class it would still be well ahead.

A three car XC 170 has 54+61+80 = 195, just 5 fewer than a four car Voyager.

Thus, my point stands. The interior layout of Voyagers is incredibly inefficient, meaning that a 170 of equivalent length is both more comfortable and more capacious.
 

TheBigD

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A three car XC 170 has 54+61+80 = 195, just 5 fewer than a four car Voyager.

Thus, my point stands. The interior layout of Voyagers is incredibly inefficient, meaning that a 170 of equivalent length is both more comfortable and more capacious.

XC 3 cars 170s are either 9 first/193 std or 9 first/187 std, 202 or 196 seats.

The lower figure being units 618-623 which have 6 less seats in the centre carriages they recently gained from the West Midlands units where the interior layout is unchanged from new.

Agree with the comment that the Voyagers are very inefficient internally. The 222s that followed weren't much better though they had less disabled toilets so more space for seats.
 

jackot

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XC 3 cars 170s are either 9 first/193 std or 9 first/187 std, 202 or 196 seats.

The lower figure being units 618-623 which have 6 less seats in the centre carriages they recently gained from the West Midlands units where the interior layout is unchanged from new.

Agree with the comment that the Voyagers are very inefficient internally. The 222s that followed weren't much better though they had less disabled toilets so more space for seats.
Yes, Meridians are likely worse in some sense. Some of the end coaches which are first class have as little as 22 seats because they also have a sizeable kitchen, whilst end standard coaches only have 38 from my research. This isn’t helped by the large amount of space taken up by exhausts - the same issue on the 185’s - so 222’s must be some of the most inefficient trains in general, especially considering the QSK19’s that power them. I certainly can’t see any other operating rushing to take them on other than XC - having so little seats relative to their size.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, Meridians are likely worse in some sense. Some of the end coaches which are first class have as little as 22 seats because they also have a sizeable kitchen, whilst end standard coaches only have 38 from my research. This isn’t helped by the large amount of space taken up by exhausts - the same issue on the 185’s - so 222’s must be some of the most inefficient trains in general, especially considering the QSK19’s that power them. I certainly can’t see any other operating rushing to take them on other than XC - having so little seats relative to their size.

Exactly. No other TOC will want them, you can be sure of that. So they are XC or scrap.
 

irish_rail

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A few comments (that I may have made before, because, let's face it, we've had this discussion before, and will continue to do so until someone takes a proper decision about XC)

XC is always going to be a tough set of routes - they generally need subsidy - they overlap with lots of other franchises (and therefore can't be easily tweaked given the fixed paths through various junctions etc) - they don't sit neatly into one region so aren't a political priority - it's always going to play second fiddle to either "Express London Services That Are Used By Lots Of MPs" or "Shorter Services That Stay Within A Region And Therefore Regional Politicians/ Representatives Have More 'Ownership' Of"

Most of the blame lies with the Government(s) - the franchise has had short term extension after short term extension - that's not Arriva's fault

HS2 has been a great excuse for Westminster to sit on their hands here - why take radical action to XC and upset people when HS2 will "fix" the Birmingham to Manchester/ Leeds services in only ten years time?

The need for fast accelerating trains capable of running at 125mph means that there's not a lot of scope for replacing Voyagers with anything else (you can take the similar trains from Avanti and EMR, of course, but replacement of the existing trains seems off the menu) - you aren't going to be able to rewrite the paths through various bottlenecks just to allow them to run your favourite trains (obligatory 442s reference etc)

Please nobody suggest cascading 125mph trains with end doors and terrible seating arrangements on the ex-Central CityLink routes, or introducing new services to Liverpool/Brighton etc (too late, I know...)

Similarly, worrying about taking trains out of action to fiddle about with the seats seems a bit of a luxury given that we need as many units in service each day as possible

Ideally I'd prioritise a regular EMU from Manchester to Birmingham over the smaller number of passengers doing through journeys to Bournemouth/ Bristol etc but that relies on platform space at New Street/ sufficient electricity supplies/ annoying the kind of people who prefer long distance links over having lots of seats on the kind of shorter distances that passengers are more likely to do on a typical day

Not all of these problems are XCs to "solve". Princess made XC the "default" TOC on a number of markets where it previously only had a smaller presence (e.g. there were only three trains per day from Edinburgh to Newcastle which were more about getting HSTs to/from Craigentinny). RRNE used to run a Leeds - Westgate - Meadowhall - Sheffield service every couple of hours (that occasionally extended to Dronfield/Chesterfield) but gave it up when Voyagers started running hourly from Leeds to Sheffield - similarly RRNW used to run services from Manchester to Birmingham - SWT from Reading to Winchester - GNER dropped the Doncaster stop on a number of Newcastle/ Edinburgh services leaving XC to handle much of the Doncaster - York/ Newcastle passengers - GNER similarly dropped the daytime services to Glasgow Central meaning anyone from Clydeside to Newcastle/ York switched to XC - there's no reason why other TOCs can't step up in certain areas where XC struggles to meet demand, as TPE later did between Leeds to Newcastle and GWR are doing with HSTs from Bristol to Exeter and Arriva's Northern franchise promised to do for Leeds - Sheffield - don't assume that only XC can solve these problems. If GWR extended some of their London - Reading - Oxford services to Banbury then that'd provide opportunities between the Thames Valley and West Midlands by changing onto Chiltern services

I've suggested before (and will continue to suggest) that XC focus more on the "core" (roughly York/ Manchester to Bristol/ Reading) - I'm not saying that they give up on the extremities but under the pre-Covid timetable there were a lot of Voyagers operating beyond the core at any one time. To provide one daily train per day from Aberdeen to Birmingham means a Voyager spending around eleven hours a day north of Edinburgh (which must be a real hassle in terms of staffing to provide just one train a day - given that you need the route knowledge, the awkward diagrams
I take real issue with the suggestion that XC should focus more north of Bristol.
Trouble is, between Bristol and Plymouth, it is XC and NOT GWR who provide the main service. GWR only provides stoppers on this route. Infact, in my experience , a southbound XC train often leaves Bristol busier than when it arrived.
The idea that XC could cut down the number of services between Bristol and Plymouth Is a complete and utterly none starter, UNLESS GWR are given extra stock to provide a 2 hour quick service between the south wests two biggest cities, and that just isn't going to happen.
 

davetheguard

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Diverting two or three Paddington - Plymouths/Paigntons at peak times -using existing XC paths- via Bristol in each direction a day would be a welcome start to relieve XC south of Bristol in my opinion, and probably wouldn't require any extra GWR stock as journey times are similar to travelling via the Berks & Hants. I believe Exeter crews already sign the road via Bristol. But perhaps the extra paths via Swindon aren't available?

There's already an extra 17.12 XC that starts at Bristol to Exeter & beyond to carry Taunton commuters in the current timetable (pre Covid it was a through train from the north and there was no chance of a seat from Bristol). Could that become a 5 or 9 car IET from Paddington?
 
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