How can housing become more sustainable but people still want to buy it?

[Bletchleyite]

Alluded to in this thread:

Poor quality passenger rail service increases demand for private car purchases

Likewise, cars are something that a lot of people use rather than enjoy. I don't think most people enjoy actually driving, but they do enjoy the lifestyle a car affords them. 1673175820 I have always thought terraced houses are quite a good compromise between providing relatively high density...

www.railforums.co.uk

...is the question of how you densify housing to make public transport viable, but make it housing families will still choose to live in (so not creating the distress-purchase/rent sink estates that 1970s new town development often did). The UK is bad at designing flats and it does seem urban living is mostly, in the UK, only for twentysomethings without kids.

The traditional terrace was alluded to, noting that they are still built (far more in the SE than the North), though modified with a wider front and going less far back so there's more room for parking and there isn't the unnecessary second reception room that most don't want.

Any other options? With kids private outdoor space is an essential, I'd say.

 

[J-2739]

Interesting topic!

Something like Accordia or Eddington in Cambridge. High-density suburban settlements with mixed-uses (especially in Eddington's case) of retail and leisure integrated. Mixed types of housing to suit different needs to encourage a heterogeneous community (so the opposite of a monocultured sink-estate). Of course, these are intercepted with green spaces, and this is seen quite nicely in this picture I took in Accordia. (OK, rubbish picture, but the terraced housing backs onto a shared green space which the public can also use. Almost like the local park on your doorstep kind of thing!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting topic!

Something like Accordia or Eddington in Cambridge. High-density suburban settlements with mixed-uses (especially in Eddington's case) of retail and leisure integrated. Mixed types of housing to suit different needs to encourage a heterogeneous community (so the opposite of a monocultured sink-estate). Of course, these are intercepted with green spaces, and this is seen quite nicely in this picture I took in Accordia. (OK, rubbish picture, but the terraced housing backs onto a shared green space which the public can also use. Almost like the local park on your doorstep kind of thing!)

That concept was ingrained in a lot of 1960s-70s social housing developments, in places like Skelmersdale, Kirkby, Wythenshawe and the Lakes Estate in Bletchley*. They were generally an abject failure because of poor maintenance and antisocial behaviour. They work in specific developments which are more like communes like the ones you mention, but not in general society - really people need their own gardens so the responsibility for maintaining them is defined.

If you built that picture in suburban Liverpool or Birmingham, say, it'd be a drug den. Not saying Cambridge doesn't have ASB, but it's pretty unique in its social makeup (only really Oxford is vaguely similar).

* I'm struggling to find a decent picture of it that doesn't just show the very Brutalist and rough looking shopping part of it, but Serpentine Court is like that, a development of flats known to be one of the worst for ASB in MK. It looks nice (if you gloss over boarded up windows and flytipping) but it really is not.

 

[J-2739]

That concept was ingrained in a lot of 1960s-70s social housing developments, in places like Skelmersdale, Kirkby, Wythenshawe and the Lakes Estate in Bletchley*. They were generally an abject failure because of poor maintenance and antisocial behaviour. They work in specific developments which are more like communes like the ones you mention, but not in general society - really people need their own gardens so the responsibility for maintaining them is defined.

If you built that picture in suburban Liverpool or Birmingham, say, it'd be a drug den. Not saying Cambridge doesn't have ASB, but it's pretty unique in its social makeup (only really Oxford is vaguely similar).

* I'm struggling to find a decent picture of it that doesn't just show the very Brutalist and rough looking shopping part of it, but Serpentine Court is like that, a development of flats known to be one of the worst for ASB in MK. It looks nice (if you gloss over boarded up windows and flytipping) but it really is not.

I agree with you that adequate maintenance and funding is vital for these housing developments (and they don't come cheap in the first place; Accordia reached £80 million on construction alone!), but then again, those examples you mention were conceived during a time where cars were seen as the future of transport. Cars are still king now, but at least there's more of a mixed picture in terms of public transport options. In particular, didn't Skelmersdale have the problem of sources of employment being remote, being a town of displaced Scouses?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with you that adequate maintenance and funding is vital for these housing developments (and they don't come cheap in the first place; Accordia reached £80 million on construction alone!), but then again, those examples you mention were conceived during a time where cars were seen as the future of transport. Cars are still king now, but at least there's more of a mixed picture in terms of public transport options. In particular, didn't Skelmersdale have the problem of sources of employment being remote, being a town of displaced Scouses?

The original New Town concept was that you lived, worked, shopped and played in the same town, only travelling out for a holiday a couple of times a year and to visit Old Aunty Mavis in Southport*. But the world doesn't work like that, and it's no good having a skilled engineering job when your profession is IT.

Places like Skem were usually designed for walking and cycling too, with roads separated from people (like the 70s estate I live on), but the problem with that was that it made policing harder and so crime worse. It's one of those things that should have worked but didn't because of human nature.

Indeed, most of the pictures of Accordia I can find look really like parts of Skem. I guess the difference is in the kind of people who live there; despite my place being one of those facing-onto-a-green-path type estates that often are hives of ASB (and muggings due to the dark corners) in places like Wythenshawe, Skem, Kirkby etc it isn't here because it's quite middle class and so people take care of the place and don't e.g. dump rubbish all over it.

* Got to get that in somewhere

 

[Dai Corner]

The estate where I live is an interesting case study.

The earliest houses, built in the very late 1990s, are detached with double garages.

Then came semi-detached or terraces of three with garages in blocks at the end and 'link-detached' with garages built in the gaps between. Also mews-style with houses round three sides of a square, fewer garages than houses and off road parking for the cheaper ones.

Moving on to to the mid-2000s, the loft spaces became bedrooms and ground floors garages and utility rooms.

The last phase saw terraced four-storey 'town houses' with minimal or no front gardens.

Pre-covid, there was an excellent bus service with four buses an hour to Cardiff, eight to Newport city centre and one to the Western Valleys. Business parks, light industry, high-tech manufacturing, Government offices, three secondary schools, a large supermarket offering a wide variety of jobs are within walking distance but nearly everyone drives to work.

 

[telstarbox]

In some ways housing is becoming more sustainable just because materials have advanced. Most new builds are very toasty compared to unimproved Victorian houses.

In transport terms - ideally we would build only on sites close to town and village centres which have a railway station or a frequent bus route. However in lots of towns the "low hanging" fruit has been done and so you start to see development on the edges of town instead. This favours car travel because it's not then part of a walkable neighbourhood - and you need a fairly large site to support things like a new primary school or a local shopping parade.

You can't please some people because in my town there are plans to build on brownfield sites which are very close to the shops and the station (which is good) but then some people complain that there aren't two parking spaces for every flat!

 

[ABB125]

A good start would be for developers to build housing that doesn't fall apart as soon as you sign the contract to move in...

And build houses that look nice. And actually have enough space. And aren't a complete rip-off. And are designed to accommodate what actually happens in real life, not what the designers/local authority etc want to try to force people to do.

Also, how about changing the planning system so that if the local authority rejects permission (because the development is totally unsuitable for the area etc), the developer can't simply appeal and the government automatically approves it without a care in the world?

Never going to happen. So we're stuck where we are.

 

[ChrisC]

It would be lovely to go back to the days when new houses were not identical all over the country. The standard houses that are being built these days look exactly the same throughout the whole country with no variation of local building styles or building materials. If, for example, you look at a photo of a street on a newly built housing estate in Nottingham, there it’s no way of distinguishing it from a similar street in Exeter, Newcastle, Manchester or Ipswich. The diversity of housing styles which made each region distinctive and often instantly recognised has been lost in recent years. Even housing such as 1930’s Nottingham council houses have a quite distinctive different style to council houses built at the time in other areas of the country.

 

[matacaster]

The main problem with most town centres is that they grew to an unsustainable size with hotchpotch of mainly small buildings on multiple levels. Big retailers and others moved to our of town locations as they could have everything on one vast floor (or maybe 2), with ample parking and peanuts for rates. Town centres need reverting to being much smaller core areas where shops that are still open are not hundreds of yards apart. Shops and offices outside the core should be
repurposed (or demolished and new flats built) for largely single or dual occupancy housing pensioners and young people without families. This would mean poorer pensioners on state pension would have easy access to shops and the local transport hub should they wish to have a day out on their bus pass or train

 

[The Ham]

We're just about to move into a town house, this allows us to have a ground floor not much larger than our current 3 bed but rather than a small box room as the last bedroom the smallest room is still able to facilitate a double bed.

Whilst we will no longer have a front garden this wasn't something that we used and others have used for parking.

Overall the plot size is almost the same but the house gains a lot more space.

This allows the house to have bigger bedrooms than a normal detached house.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going up to three stories does indeed provide some densification while still retaining the "private house with a small garden" that is beloved of almost all UK buyers. There are quite a few of them in newer parts of Milton Keynes. When I was buying, though, the thing I didn't like about most of them was that they had the kitchen on the ground floor and lounge/diner on the first (typically bedrooms on the second), which seemed a bit clunky to me, carrying prepared food upstairs is a bit of a faff. Not terrible, though, and some older 3 storey MK townhouses have a nice lounge balcony and a carport underneath which is quite convenient.

The price is enough to give you a multiple aneurysm (that's like twice the value of mine and not massively bigger), but here's a new build example in MK:

Check out this 3 bedroom end of terrace house for sale on Rightmove

3 bedroom end of terrace house for sale in Hayton Way, Milton Keynes , MK4 for £454,750. Marketed by Elevation, Milton Keynes - New Homes

www.rightmove.co.uk

 

[cactustwirly]

Alluded to in this thread:

Poor quality passenger rail service increases demand for private car purchases

Likewise, cars are something that a lot of people use rather than enjoy. I don't think most people enjoy actually driving, but they do enjoy the lifestyle a car affords them. 1673175820 I have always thought terraced houses are quite a good compromise between providing relatively high density...

www.railforums.co.uk

...is the question of how you densify housing to make public transport viable, but make it housing families will still choose to live in (so not creating the distress-purchase/rent sink estates that 1970s new town development often did). The UK is bad at designing flats and it does seem urban living is mostly, in the UK, only for twentysomethings without kids.

The traditional terrace was alluded to, noting that they are still built (far more in the SE than the North), though modified with a wider front and going less far back so there's more room for parking and there isn't the unnecessary second reception room that most don't want.

Any other options? With kids private outdoor space is an essential, I'd say.

The problem with Terraced houses is that they are very cold, and very prone to mould and damp as a result. Most of them have a D or E EPC rating with no financially viable way of improving this.

60s and 70s houses are very good, much better insulated and often have good parking and good sized gardens. But they are on estates with few local amenties and often requires driving to everywhere bar the local convenience store. You can't just walk into town/the pub unlike a terraced house

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with Terraced houses is that they are very cold, and very prone to mould and damp as a result. Most of them have a D or E EPC rating with no financially viable way of improving this.

Traditional terraced houses are. Absolutely nothing saying you can't build newer designs, and indeed plenty of them are built, though usually in short blocks of 4 to 6 to ease rear access rather than the old style long streets of them. They're more common as new properties in the South East where land costs more.

You can modify the design a bit to make them go less far back and be wider, meaning there's space for 2 car parking spaces at the back or front and no wasteful second reception room that most people these days don't know what to do with.

60s and 70s houses are very good, much better insulated and often have good parking and good sized gardens. But they are on estates with few local amenties and often requires driving to everywhere bar the local convenience store. You can't just walk into town/the pub unlike a terraced house

I can walk to three pubs from mine, two drinkers' pubs and a gastropub, plus two Tesco Expresses, a One Stop, a Premier, two Co-ops and a McColl's, and plenty of different types of takeaway. It's a small 3 bed terrace built in 1970, and as you say very energy efficient despite the fact that it could do with another layer in the loft. It does vary a lot (including on what you consider walking distance).

 

[cactustwirly]

Traditional terraced houses are. Absolutely nothing saying you can't build newer designs, and indeed plenty of them are built, though usually in short blocks of 4 to 6 to ease rear access rather than the old style long streets of them. They're more common as new properties in the South East where land costs more.

You can modify the design a bit to make them go less far back and be wider, meaning there's space for 2 car parking spaces at the back or front and no wasteful second reception room that most people these days don't know what to do with.



I can walk to three pubs from mine, two drinkers' pubs and a gastropub, plus two Tesco Expresses, a One Stop, a Premier, two Co-ops and a McColl's, and plenty of different types of takeaway. It's a small 3 bed terrace built in 1970, and as you say very energy efficient despite the fact that it could do with another layer in the loft. It does vary a lot (including on what you consider walking distance).

I've looked at moving to Bracknell, but there's usually only 1 pub per estate and they're very rough.

The town centre is very nice now it's been redeveloped, but it's a bus ride away

 

[J-2739]

Indeed, most of the pictures of Accordia I can find look really like parts of Skem. I guess the difference is in the kind of people who live there; despite my place being one of those facing-onto-a-green-path type estates that often are hives of ASB (and muggings due to the dark corners) in places like Wythenshawe, Skem, Kirkby etc it isn't here because it's quite middle class and so people take care of the place and don't e.g. dump rubbish all over it.

Yes, I guess at the end, it comes back to the people whether or not a neighbourhood is cohesive

We're just about to move into a town house, this allows us to have a ground floor not much larger than our current 3 bed but rather than a small box room as the last bedroom the smallest room is still able to facilitate a double bed.

Whilst we will no longer have a front garden this wasn't something that we used and others have used for parking.

Overall the plot size is almost the same but the house gains a lot more space.

This allows the house to have bigger bedrooms than a normal detached house.

We also moved house last summer, from a post-war council estate-type 3-bed suburban housing to a 4-bed semi-detached house in a mid-2000s development closer to town, and I have similar findings to you.

We still have a front garden, but it is no longer sheltered from the pavement, and it (plus back garden) is rather smaller than what we had before, and this correlates with a higher housing density.

It's no hardship though, as we very rarely use our garden space except for the odd summer barbecue and kick about, and those activities can still be accommodated for. Smaller private gardens are also much less costly (in time and money) to maintain. It makes me wonder how many people have too much private garden for their house?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's no hardship though, as we very rarely use our garden space except for the odd summer barbecue and kick about, and those activities can still be accommodated for. Smaller private gardens are also much less costly (in time and money) to maintain. It makes me wonder how many people have too much private garden for their house?

I'd not want a massive one, just one big enough to sit around in. I have a fairly big front garden and it's nothing but a nuisance - have to cut the grass and it isn't any actual utility - I can see why people give it over to parking (though as my house doesn't front the road this wouldn't be useful ).

 

[telstarbox]

I can think of big Victorian villas in London which have very long but narrow gardens. In some cases where the house has been split into flats the garden has been split accordingly so they get a small garden each.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've looked at moving to Bracknell, but there's usually only 1 pub per estate and they're very rough.

Estate pubs are largely dying off because people don't go to the pub in the evening as regularly. Town centre ones are really where hospitality's future lies.

 

[J-2739]

I'd not want a massive one, just one big enough to sit around in. I have a fairly big front garden and it's nothing but a nuisance - have to cut the grass and it isn't any actual utility - I can see why people give it over to parking (though as my house doesn't front the road this wouldn't be useful ).

Personally, I'd just cobble over the front garden, as an experiment!

 

[telstarbox]

Plus in some areas demographic changes mean that lots of the locals don't drink. Pubs really need to adapt or die - for the ones still banging out Fosters and alcopops the writing is on the wall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I'd just cobble over the front garden, as an experiment!

I have thought about changing it to decorative gravel or something, but it's presently sitting in the "can't be bothered" tray

 

[J-2739]

I have thought about changing it to decorative gravel or something, but it's presently sitting in the "can't be bothered" tray

Fair enough!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of terraces, here's a random example of a modernish set of 4, I think early 2000s ish. They don't look like traditional ones, but it's still a terrace - 4 houses joined together.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

As mentioned you don't tend to get long ones any more because short blocks ease rear access without the ASB issues you get with long deserted alleyways.

And another one:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

It does seem around there that 4-5 is the magic number, typically two larger ones with two or three smaller ones sandwiched in between.

I'd not say they were the prettiest things in the world compared with a classic Victorian bay fronted terrace, indeed I'd be tempted to say they were sow-ugly, but I'm sure they're warmer than the traditional type, and they have their own parking.

 

[ABB125]

This allows the house to have bigger bedrooms than a normal detached house.

Do you perhaps mean "this allows the house to have normal-sized bedrooms rather than the tiny cubes which can fit a bed and nothing else, which are prevalent in most new-builds unless you go into the £1million-plus market"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you perhaps mean "this allows the house to have normal-sized bedrooms rather than the tiny cubes which can fit a bed and nothing else, which are prevalent in most new-builds unless you go into the £1million-plus market"?

A boxroom can be useful. I use mine as an office, though the previous occupant did have it as a kid's bedroom and it does have some built in storage.

 

[matacaster]

Talking of terraces, here's a random example of a modernish set of 4, I think early 2000s ish. They don't look like traditional ones, but it's still a terrace - 4 houses joined together.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

As mentioned you don't tend to get long ones any more because short blocks ease rear access without the ASB issues you get with long deserted alleyways.

And another one:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

It does seem around there that 4-5 is the magic number, typically two larger ones with two or three smaller ones sandwiched in between.

I'd not say they were the prettiest things in the world compared with a classic Victorian bay fronted terrace, indeed I'd be tempted to say they were sow-ugly, but I'm sure they're warmer than the traditional type, and they have their own parking.

They may be more energy efficient, but are often shoddily built and suffer condensation.

The more enterprising housebuilders use 3/4 size furniture to enhance the apparent size of the rooms.

 

[dgl]

When my Dad had a relatively new (90's at the latest) 3 bed housing association place the 3rd bedroom was laughably small, to the point that the bed in there was made by a friend so it could be built over the hump where the stairs are! It also had built in wardrobes but only because the immersion tank was between two of the bedrooms and it made it look less odd.
It seems to be that modern housing estates are designed with software that can work out the minimum size a house can be and how many can be crammed in, our 70's 3 bed house we did live in was not huge in any shape or form but you at least got an acceptable garden, drive and garage.

The place we (well my mum) might be buying and moving to (it's got some unexpected fire damage to be attended to since viewing/acceptance of offer!) is a 4 bedroom place where two of the bedrooms are obviously in a sort of converted loft (but no really low ceilings and still a loft hatch) so you get the advantage of 3 nice sized bedrooms, a fourth that isn't miniscule and still have an upstairs bathroom. We generally found that there is no such thing really as a 3 bedroom house with 3 decently sized rooms, and given that the 3 of us that will be living there are "grown-up" one of the bedrooms being small is inadequate (she has clothes and whatnot and I have "a few" keyboards and whatnot).

 

[The Ham]

Do you perhaps mean "this allows the house to have normal-sized bedrooms rather than the tiny cubes which can fit a bed and nothing else, which are prevalent in most new-builds unless you go into the £1million-plus market"?

The more enterprising housebuilders use 3/4 size furniture to enhance the apparent size of the rooms.

The opposite is true for our new home (new build), the second bedroom could be split in half and each half would be within 20cm in each direction of our current largest bedroom (mid 1980's house), has 2.9m high ground floor ceilings and could just squeeze a double (circa 50cm either side) into the last bedroom - the other 3 could at least take a king size bed. The 1970/1980 homes were the ones which 4th bedroom being small and often wanted more money. (Although I'm also aware that isn't always the case).

 

[GusB]

Estate pubs are largely dying off because people don't go to the pub in the evening as regularly. Town centre ones are really where hospitality's future lies.

When will we be able to see the results of the extensive survey that you've carried out?