How can Paddington - Penzance services be sped up

[YourMum666]

The 10:20 Penzance to Paddington is timed as 5 hours 7 mins on RTT, what could be done to improve journey times between Penzance and London Paddington.

Realtime Trains | 1A84 1020 Penzance to London Paddington | 14/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 1A84 1020 departure from Penzance to London Paddington on 14/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[BJames]

Interesting because I've always thought of this as a route where potential time savings could be made, but how? Some people will be along to point out the conflicts on the route I haven't had a chance to look at yet, and why most of these probably cannot be done, but initial thoughts simply based off of 1A84 as the quoted train and not yet researching further:

-There is a 5 min dwell at Reading. This could be reduced but probably has conflicting moves
-You could reduce the number of stops along the whole route. Since we're in the speculative section, you could reduce it drastically to call Penzance - Truro - Plymouth - Exeter - Reading - London. However, this removes some useful interchange stations, such as St Erth, Par, Liskeard and Newton Abbot. Add those in and the only stops you are omitting are Camborne, Redruth, St Austell, Totnes and Taunton. For the Cornwall stations at least this removes the ability to maintain a clockface timetable. I would actually quite like to see an express of this kind but again some of the intermittent stops are useful
-You could I suppose take out the performance allowances. However, along the entire route this is only 8 mins of performance allowance across 5h7m - EMR trains between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway on a Sunday morning have more than this just between their first two stations! If you take out performance allowance this train will regularly be late into Paddington
-Infrastructure wise, the section between Exeter and Plymouth isn't the fastest. I haven't been following the Tavistock developments but diverting another way I don't think will reduce these times considerably?

There's at least one member on here driving this route who I'd be interested to hear from as to whether more could be done. The most important thing right now I think is to ensure that capacity between PAD and Plymouth at the very least is maintained at a level suitable for the number of travellers, so I imagine speeding up this service is not at the top of the priorities list.

 

[YourMum666]

Interesting because I've always thought of this as a route where potential time savings could be made, but how? Some people will be along to point out the conflicts on the route I haven't had a chance to look at yet, and why most of these probably cannot be done, but initial thoughts simply based off of 1A84 as the quoted train and not yet researching further:

-There is a 5 min dwell at Reading. This could be reduced but probably has conflicting moves
-You could reduce the number of stops along the whole route. Since we're in the speculative section, you could reduce it drastically to call Penzance - Truro - Plymouth - Exeter - Reading - London. However, this removes some useful interchange stations, such as St Erth, Par, Liskeard and Newton Abbot. Add those in and the only stops you are omitting are Camborne, Redruth, St Austell, Totnes and Taunton. For the Cornwall stations at least this removes the ability to maintain a clockface timetable. I would actually quite like to see an express of this kind but again some of the intermittent stops are useful
-You could I suppose take out the performance allowances. However, along the entire route this is only 8 mins of performance allowance across 5h7m - EMR trains between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway on a Sunday morning have more than this just between their first two stations! If you take out performance allowance this train will regularly be late into Paddington
-Infrastructure wise, the section between Exeter and Plymouth isn't the fastest. I haven't been following the Tavistock developments but diverting another way I don't think will reduce these times considerably?

There's at least one member on here driving this route who I'd be interested to hear from as to whether more could be done. The most important thing right now I think is to ensure that capacity between PAD and Plymouth at the very least is maintained at a level suitable for the number of travellers, so I imagine speeding up this service is not at the top of the priorities list.

How much time would be saved say if you skipped reading completely and just ran direct London - Taunton - Exeter - Newton Abbot - Par - Truro - St Erth - Penzance, also could their be more speed improvements around the Taunton to Exeter and Plymouth to Penzance area, as well as resigns long and double tracking in certain areas? How much time would improvements like those save, as well as maybe extending the wires westward, and improving the berks and Hants to be prepared for 125mph running?

 

[HSTEd]

improving the berks and Hants to be prepared for 125mph running?

My understanding is the Berks and Hants has been optimised pretty much as far as it will go already.

Probably not going to get much additional speed out of the alignment.

 

[Jrocks]

From the December Timetable change, 1C76 is timed 1hr59 Paddington to Exeter and 2hr59 Paddington to Plymouth. That's with 4.5 mins of allowances, 4 engineering and 0.5 pathing. That seems like the quickest your going to get for these stations without some line speed increases. They cant even skip some stations as it's already booked non-stop Reading to Exeter!

For the whole route, its 4hr56 which isn't bad going really.

Realtime Trains | 1C76 1004 London Paddington to Penzance | 12/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1C76 1004 departure from London Paddington to Penzance on 12/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[DPWH2]

How much would more electrification help?

 

[YourMum666]

My understanding is the Berks and Hants has been optimised pretty much as far as it will go already.

Probably not going to get much additional speed out of the alignment.

Surely bedwyn to pewsey can be upgraded to 125mph as its relatively straight?

 

[Irascible]

Electrificationi in Devon may help some ( Exeter-Plymouth is *slow* and some improvements in acceleration would help ) but without some fairly major realignments - in the south-west that's on the level of new sections of line rather than just slewing - pretty much all the way, I don't think there'll be huge improvements to find.

 

[AM9]

Surely bedwyn to pewsey can be upgraded to 125mph as its relatively straight?

That would increase maintenance costs on just 9 miles of track yet gain less than 65 seconds not allowing for acceleration and deceleration. One way to waste money I suppose.
The route is 305 miles long and is in effect a service that performs three different functions:
an express link to a major home county hub over an inter-city line,
a long regional connection over a meandering cross country line
and pert of a local stopping service via a long tortuous rural line with only moderate demand.
With relatively low demand for through travel to beyond Exeter, there is little that can be done whilst still making the service viable. In my opinion, part of what makes Devon and Cornwall attractive as a destination is it's remoteness from the south-east, but tamper with the through service would probably drive more leisure traffic onto the roads.
The fact that replacing the HSTs with the much more agile class 80x stock has resulted in little speeding up particularly between Exeter and Plymouth, shows that the infrastructure is the issue, and without prohibitive expenditure, that's the way it will stay, - even with electrification which would probably be decades away.

 

[dk1]

It’s been sped up a little already with most trains running fast Reading-Taunton. That wasn’t always the case. Through Cornwall it has to be all things to all men as Penzance isn’t necessarily the main destination just the end of the line.

 

[RobShipway]

As @AM9 has pointed out the challenge is the infrastructure of the tracks between Exeter and Plymouth.

The situation is that you either find ways to improve the existing track layout or you build a completely new line. However, depending on where the new line gets built, it could end up destroying the beautiful countryside that people enjoy seeing in Devon and Cornwall.

I do wonder though if you could take out the stops at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro. St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard as these are also stopped at by the Penzance to Cardiff Central (2U20) service 30 minutes later. Maybe also take out Totnes and Newton Abbot for the same reasons. But I bet that there would probably be a lot of complaints if that was done, as it would be an hourly service rather than a service every 20 - 40 minutes from Penzance to Exeter. The timings are such that 1A84 leave Penzance at 10:20am and gets to Exeter st Davids at 13:13 with being pathed as a 125mph train. Where as the Castle service leaves Penzance 10:50 and gets to Exeter St Davids at 13:51 pathed as a 110mph train. Prior to these two services is a Penzance to Plymouth service that leaves 09:50 (2P09) and get to Plymouth at 11:50. This train is pathed as a class 158/168/170/175 DMU at 90MPH. You also have later Penzance - Plymouth services which are pathed for 80x and Castle sets at either 125mph for the 80x and 110mph for the Castle sets.

I do wonder if the 2P09 service could be extended to Exeter, but only stopping at Totnes and Newton Abbot between Plymouth and Exeter St David's?

What I find weird is that you have the 09:40 arrival into Penzance which is going to be 158951, 10:43 arrival which is 802020 which have both started from Exeter St David's, but other than the services to London that stop at Exeter St David's, there is no Penzance - Exeter St David's service other than the 18:15 departure which today will be 802010. Later on you do also have the 21:00 departure to Exeter St David's which will be 158951 returning to depot, gaining extra coaches at Plymouth.

 

[stuu]

Surely bedwyn to pewsey can be upgraded to 125mph as its relatively straight?

Its nothing like straight! The slowest section on the entire line is right there. The line was built as a country branch line, not a fast main line.

The only section which I think could possibly be faster is Langport to Castle Cary, but there may well be geological or other factors which slow it down... or it might not be worthwhile

 

[irish_rail]

In my experience, maybe 5 to 10 minutes could be saved with less dwell time through Cornwall, frequently stood for several minutes at many Cornish stations. If portion working was done away with then Plymouth stops could potentially be reduced by a couple of minutes. Also, as someone else pointed out, the Reading stop is frustratingly long and going off memory it is to allow another service a better run into Paddington at the ex Penzance trains expense. So I reckon you could easily shave 15 minutes from the overall time by looking at these 3 areas, but there are of course negatives to doing this , you may slow down whatever it is at Reading that currently gets the quick path for example.

1c76 is a good train, I recently travelled on it from London to Plymouth in 2hr 59, so it is already achieving that time. More trains omitting Tiverton and Taunton like this one would be nice, though I suspect inpractical for GWR from a revenue point of view sadly.

 

[43096]

I do wonder though if you could take out the stops at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro. St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard as these are also stopped at by the Penzance to Cardiff Central (2U20) service 30 minutes later. Maybe also take out Totnes and Newton Abbot for the same reasons.

So you take out the stops where people want to go to.

Have you ever actually travelled on the route and seen how much trafffc is generated at those stops - or is this just more armchair crayonista?

 

[stuu]

I suspect inpractical for GWR from a revenue point of view sadly.

How dare GWR do something to earn money!

 

[The Planner]

Interesting because I've always thought of this as a route where potential time savings could be made, but how? Some people will be along to point out the conflicts on the route I haven't had a chance to look at yet, and why most of these probably cannot be done, but initial thoughts simply based off of 1A84 as the quoted train and not yet researching further:

-There is a 5 min dwell at Reading. This could be reduced but probably has conflicting moves
-You could reduce the number of stops along the whole route. Since we're in the speculative section, you could reduce it drastically to call Penzance - Truro - Plymouth - Exeter - Reading - London. However, this removes some useful interchange stations, such as St Erth, Par, Liskeard and Newton Abbot. Add those in and the only stops you are omitting are Camborne, Redruth, St Austell, Totnes and Taunton. For the Cornwall stations at least this removes the ability to maintain a clockface timetable. I would actually quite like to see an express of this kind but again some of the intermittent stops are useful
-You could I suppose take out the performance allowances. However, along the entire route this is only 8 mins of performance allowance across 5h7m - EMR trains between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway on a Sunday morning have more than this just between their first two stations! If you take out performance allowance this train will regularly be late into Paddington
-Infrastructure wise, the section between Exeter and Plymouth isn't the fastest. I haven't been following the Tavistock developments but diverting another way I don't think will reduce these times considerably?

There's at least one member on here driving this route who I'd be interested to hear from as to whether more could be done. The most important thing right now I think is to ensure that capacity between PAD and Plymouth at the very least is maintained at a level suitable for the number of travellers, so I imagine speeding up this service is not at the top of the priorities list.

You can't take engineering allowance out and the pathing time is to keep it apart from other trains.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Is 140mph running on the Bristol main line ever likely to be a thing - the heavy-duty OHLE is certainly specified for it? You could then route fast Devon and Cornwall services the 'Great Way Round' with electrification and upgrade of Bristol to Exeter to 125mph. The Berks and Hants is too 'bouncy castle' and plagued with heavy stone trains for further improvement. West of Exeter electrification of the South Devon banks would help.

 

[devon_belle]

Without somehow getting rid of freight from the Berks and Hants I don't see much being done on that stretch. Reducing station stops on the Cornwall end would potentially mean new local services are needed, which then just provides a pathing obstacle AIUI. I'd argue that it would be better to remove stops East of Exeter, where possible, but this just compounds the problem of paths fitting 90+ miles of non-stop running from Taunton to Reading around 45 mph heavy freight trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From having used these a few times recently, one thing would be a dedicated fleet of higher powered units, because they always seem to crawl up the bank before Plymouth. Or simply get the wires up! All the way to Penzance would be difficult to justify, but Plymouth you certainly could, even if you had to have a short section of diesel or battery running along Dawlish (though I'm not 100% convinced by this as there's a similar electrified line in Scotland).

I do wonder though if you could take out the stops at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro. St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard as these are also stopped at by the Penzance to Cardiff Central (2U20) service 30 minutes later.

This would be an utterly silly idea as several of those are the big origins/destinations! Penzance itself isn't that busy, it's a "local town for local people" with far less tourist traffic than say St Ives.

 

[The Planner]

Is 140mph running on the Bristol main line ever likely to be a thing - the heavy-duty OHLE is certainly specified for it? You could then route fast Devon and Cornwall services the 'Great Way Round' with electrification and upgrade of Bristol to Exeter to 125mph. The Berks and Hants is too 'bouncy castle' and plagued with heavy stone trains for further improvement. West of Exeter electrification of the South Devon banks would help.

Dont fall into the trap of 140 vs 125 saving shed loads of time. Its 3 seconds a mile.

 

[Xavi]

With relatively low demand for through travel to beyond Exeter

Very variable - 'full and standing' heading to London on arrival at Exeter is commonplace May through August.

infrastructure is the issue, and without prohibitive expenditure

Absolutely, though 'prohibitive' can be questioned. It is well documented that electrification has whole-life cost savings and environmental benefits, and would allow savings of circa 15 mins Plymouth to Newbury by climbing the hills quicker, acceleration benefits, and moving the stone from Somerset quicker to speed up paths. Unfortunately, we have short-sighted politicians.

It’s been sped up a little already with most trains running fast Reading-Taunton

When operating as planned, London - Exeter service is pretty good these days (despite what Barry Doe says), 2 hours to 2 hrs 10 including 3 useful stops (Tiverton Parkway is widely used by Greater Exeter residents living near the M5 corridor). People often comment how the journey time (or sub 2 hours to Tiverton Parkway), is good compared to 1 hr 35 to Bristol Temple Meads, and has encouraged relocation from London & SE to Devon.

The only section which I think could possibly be faster is Langport to Castle Cary

Would be possible in connection with re-signalling to reduce length of blocks. Should be happening CP7/8 but likely to be kicked down the road.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Electrification and Pendolinos? Build a high-speed line from London-Bristol-Exeter?

 

[30907]

Looking at the current timetable, the headline 3-hour timings depend on the existence of the semi fasts - the 0637 Plymouth feeding into the 0655 at Taunton and the 0937/1035 down allowing the 1004 to omit Taunton altogether. You don't want 90/120 min gaps at Taunton so there isn't another opportunity to skip that stop.

Totally OT but why does Castle Cary get a FO stop each way? (0904 down, return at 1602)

 

[RobShipway]

From having used these a few times recently, one thing would be a dedicated fleet of higher powered units, because they always seem to crawl up the bank before Plymouth. Or simply get the wires up! All the way to Penzance would be difficult to justify, but Plymouth you certainly could, even if you had to have a short section of diesel or battery running along Dawlish (though I'm not 100% convinced by this as there's a similar electrified line in Scotland).



This would be an utterly silly idea as several of those are the big origins/destinations! Penzance itself isn't that busy, it's a "local town for local people" with far less tourist traffic than say St Ives.

But it is just as silly to me to be having at least four trains in an hour stopping at those stops that travel between at least Penzance and Plymouth, if not then also travel on to Exeter St Davids to go on to other destinations.

You have the following trains over the next two hours:

2P12 11:15 Penzance to Plymouth using class 802020 stopping at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, St Germans, Saltash, Plymouth
2P13 11:50 Penzance to Plymouth using 110mph pathed castles class 43's 43154 & 43092 stopping at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Menheniot, St Germans, Saltash, St Brudeaux Ferry Road, Devonport then Plymouth
1A88 12:15 Penzance to London Paddington using 802103 stopping at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Plymouth, Totnes, Newton Abbot, Exeter St Davids, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Castle Cary, Reading then London Paddington
2U24 12:50 Penzance to Plymouth using 150265, then on to Cardiff Central stopping at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithel, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, St Germans, Saltash, Plymouth (This service is pathed for class 43 doing 110mph)
2P16 13:15 Penzance to Plymouth using 802010 makes the same stops as 2P12 plus as stop at Hayle.
2p17 13:50 Penzance to Plymouth using 800002 makes the same stops as 2P16.

I agree that Penzance is not a busy station, but times I have been in Cornwall and Devon, St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithel, Liskeard, St Germans have not been busy stations either, especially during the day. So why are so many trains stopping at these stations? Surely, you only need the Penzance to Plymouth services stopping at these stations, there is no need for the London paddington and Cardiff Central trains to be stopping?

 

[Grecian 1998]

The population of Cornwall is very spread out - the metrics seem to be variable, but as far as I can determine there isn't a single town with a population exceeding 25,000.

St Erth is the connection for the St Ives branch, which is heaving in high summer (albeit I suspect most visitors drive to and park at St Erth).

Redruth and Camborne stations serve the largest single urban area in Cornwall.

Truro is the major commercial centre of Cornwall and the busiest station.

St Austell is (on some definitions anyway) the largest single town.

Par is the junction for the Newquay line.

Bodmin Parkway is the station serving the old county town (even if you can't walk there due to how dangerous it would be along the road) and also the railhead for North Cornwall, although it could be argued Tiverton Parkway also serves that function.

Liskeard is both a reasonably large town by Cornish standards and the junction for the Looe branch.

Given that Penzance is smaller than many of those towns and isn't a major draw in its own right, there isn't any real reason to speed up services to Penzance specifically. The only one of those stations which could arguably be dropped without much difficulty is Par, but only in hours where there's no train to connect with on the Newquay line.

If the Paddington - Exeter semi-fast could be increased to hourly rather than 2 hourly, it might be possible to insert the Tiverton Parkway stop on that service and omit it from the longer-distance services, although there might be some resistance from TP users due to increased journey times.

Otherwise, the only significant and realistic way to speed up services which I can see would be discontinuous electrification where the gain would be greatest. An obvious one would be Newton Abbot - Plymouth due to the hills and the extremely low speeds for a trunk route - 50-55 Newton Abbot - Totnes and 60 Totnes - Hemerdon. It would also ease the strain on the 802s. It might be more difficult to justify in Cornwall, but with frequent stops, the increase in acceleration would seem likely to help journey times.

As others have said, the current journey time from London - Exeter is pretty good. The 1 hour for the 52 fairly indirect miles between Exeter and Plymouth is rather less impressive. The journey time for the 79 miles from Plymouth to Penzance is unimpressive on the face of it, but it isn't generally considered a trunk route on this section, so infrastructure improvements may be harder to justify.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that Penzance is not a busy station, but times I have been in Cornwall and Devon, St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Lostwithel, Liskeard, St Germans have not been busy stations either, especially during the day. So why are so many trains stopping at these stations? Surely, you only need the Penzance to Plymouth services stopping at these stations, there is no need for the London paddington and Cardiff Central trains to be stopping?

For most people, trains are for going to London. Thus, removing the stops from the London trains would be negative and reduce usage.

I have wondered about the idea of running the Paddington to Penzance trains formed of 10 coaches to Plymouth (calling at Reading and Taunton only) where they could split into a faster and a slower portion, both running to Penzance, and the same in the opposite direction. However that split and join would increase delay, would slow the service further to have time to carry it out, and might be imbalanced in capacity terms. But in reality the current Southern Region style operation (fast to Exeter thence semifast) probably makes the most sense because demand is quite distributed. Cornwall is not like London to Manchester or London to Edinburgh where you've got an obvious big city at the end that almost everyone's going to/from, you've got a set of smaller places which share the demand.

Bodmin Parkway is the station serving the old county town (even if you can't walk there due to how dangerous it would be along the road) and also the railhead for North Cornwall, although it could be argued Tiverton Parkway also serves that function.

There is a frequent bus service, and people also use taxis and drive. It's quite well used.

Stations in the middle of nowhere aren't necessarily quiet. Cheddington might be, but Tring is a well-used Parkway for instance despite not having it in the name. Parkways do work.

 

[irish_rail]

How dare GWR do something to earn money!

Its a balancing act between providing a decent service and trying to please everyone. For example the Avanti London to Glasgow trains don't stop south of Warrington, despite the fact by stopping at several places more revenue could be generated. They rightly realise that providing a decent service to Scotland is more important, and that those towns further south can be served by local trains perfectly adequately. If the Exeter stoppers could be made to hourly, then absolutely Taunton and Tivy should be served only by that in my view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its a balancing act between providing a decent service and trying to please everyone. For example the Avanti London to Glasgow trains don't stop south of Warrington, despite the fact by stopping at several places more revenue could be generated. They rightly realise that providing a decent service to Scotland is more important, and that those towns further south can be served by local trains perfectly adequately. If the Exeter stoppers could be made to hourly, then absolutely Taunton and Tivy should be served only by that in my view.

In my understanding the reason those trains don't stop at Crewe (or anywhere else south of there) is simply that if they did they'd be overcrowded. It's recognised that they would provide better connectivity if they did, and indeed a Crewe stop was inserted during the COVID period when usage was significantly reduced, I think by running them in the path of one of the Liverpools.

I don't however disagree with the idea of an hourly Exeter semifast and removing Taunton/Tiverton from the Penzance - but it would make relatively little difference. I'm not sure how much taking 5-10 minutes off a 5 hour journey really matters - it's still basically all day. I do however disagree with removing stops west of Plymouth because of the distributed nature of demand there.

 

[fandroid]

How much time would be saved say if you skipped reading completely and just ran direct London - Taunton - Exeter - Newton Abbot - Par - Truro - St Erth - Penzance, also could their be more speed improvements around the Taunton to Exeter and Plymouth to Penzance area, as well as resigns long and double tracking in certain areas? How much time would improvements like those save, as well as maybe extending the wires westward, and improving the berks and Hants to be prepared for 125mph running?

Leaving out Plymouth would be a bold commercial move!

 

[cle]

From having used these a few times recently, one thing would be a dedicated fleet of higher powered units, because they always seem to crawl up the bank before Plymouth. Or simply get the wires up! All the way to Penzance would be difficult to justify, but Plymouth you certainly could, even if you had to have a short section of diesel or battery running along Dawlish (though I'm not 100% convinced by this as there's a similar electrified line in Scotland).



This would be an utterly silly idea as several of those are the big origins/destinations! Penzance itself isn't that busy, it's a "local town for local people" with far less tourist traffic than say St Ives.

Came do to this. Certainly Truro and St Austell are the two key spots, if others were cut (Redruth and Camborne possibly) - but you’d not save much as it’s so slow.

Increasing minimums would help. But really the journey time at the fastest pattern isn’t so bad.