How could heritage railways encourage more visitors to arrive by public transport?

[47434]

I visited a heritage railway on Sunday by public transport - largely because they have excellent ale.....

It took 2 hours each way rather than 35 mins by car. Cost, even with the cheap £2 bus fares (4 of) was still more than the car.

It's not difficult to work out why people use their car as travel mode of choice

 

[ChrisC]

RHS Wisley are not scared of promoting public transport options:

I think all five of the main RHS gardens throughout the country do quite a significant reduction in ticket price for those travelling by public transport. I visited RHS Bridgewater near Manchester a couple of weeks ago where it’s around a £4 reduction in price if you have travelled by public transport. You do have to show your tickets as proof.

I visited a heritage railway on Sunday by public transport - largely because they have excellent ale.....

It took 2 hours each way rather than 35 mins by car. Cost, even with the cheap £2 bus fares (4 of) was still more than the car.

It's not difficult to work out why people use their car as travel mode of choice

I know the feeling. I visited the Great Central Railway at Loughborough a few weeks ago and decided to go by bus. It wouldn't have taken me any longer than 45 minutes to drive there but it took me well over 2 hours each way by bus.

 

[6Gman]

There are, in fact, people who have kids and don't have a car and believe it or not... they go and do stuff using public transport, where it's made available.

My parents never owned a car. Somehow they managed to bring up two children and to show them an awful lot of Britain, and all by public transport.

Lands End to Thurso (we never quite reached John O'Groats).

 

[Meerkat]

They are promoting public transport prominently, which I thought was the point under discussion, why is that a problem for you?

Not that prominently, whilst they provide absolutely huge car parks

Have a good selection of ale on the trains and folk will be more likely to come by public transport.

No offence but prominent booze would put off many people due to concerns either about drunkenness or odd, smelly, real ale fans (Remember perception is more important than reality, and bad experiences/anecdata are very memorable)

 

[Box]

Not that prominently, whilst they provide absolutely huge car parks

They certainly do have huge and intrusive car parks (which are not exactly popular with the locals) I agree, but they are last on the list of suggested modes and there is a 30% discount for not using them all of which seems very prominent to me (webpage attached).

No offence but prominent booze would put off many people due to concerns either about drunkenness or odd, smelly, real ale fans (Remember perception is more important than reality, and bad experiences/anecdata are very memorable)

This I agree with, definitely one to be careful with

 

[xotGD]

No offence but prominent booze would put off many people due to concerns either about drunkenness or odd, smelly, real ale fans (Remember perception is more important than reality, and bad experiences/anecdata are very memorable)

Any evidence to back up this assertion?

The KWVR regularly tweet to advertise which ales will be available on the train. They wouldn't be doing this if they thought it would discourage visitors.

 

[alexl92]

I genuinely don’t think there is much Heritage Railways can do to encourage visitors to use Public Transport other than maybe timing services to connect. The bottom line is that by and large Public Transport in this country outside London is pretty shocking - even if the services run on time, most busses are grubby, smelly and slow. Our railway infrastructure means that making a lot of journeys by train is both longer and more expensive than it should be. Until the Government and LAs are willing to invest in cohesive and attractive public transport systems, people will stick to cars because in an age where the average worker is working longer hours for lower pay, time and money are both at a premium so ultimately What is convenient will always win.

 

[DDB]

Even when the heritage sector tries it can be let down by public transport. The ecclesbourne valley railway were putting on an extra earlier train timed to meet the national rail service at Duffield for a special event on the 30th. They have just cancelled that extra service because the rail strikes means there is no service to meet!

 

[Coolzac]

I genuinely don’t think there is much Heritage Railways can do to encourage visitors to use Public Transport other than maybe timing services to connect. The bottom line is that by and large Public Transport in this country outside London is pretty shocking - even if the services run on time, most busses are grubby, smelly and slow. Our railway infrastructure means that making a lot of journeys by train is both longer and more expensive than it should be. Until the Government and LAs are willing to invest in cohesive and attractive public transport systems, people will stick to cars because in an age where the average worker is working longer hours for lower pay, time and money are both at a premium so ultimately What is convenient will always win.

Absolutely this. I don't drive so I live in the world of public transport, but public transport outside of London is almost always just not up to scratch. If we as a society actually want people to stop using cars, we need to improve public transport options many times over. Cheaper, faster and more reliable. In some areas such as rural areas it's never going to be feasible, but in many parts of the country it's sad to see the opportunities missed.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Absolutely this. I don't drive so I live in the world of public transport, but public transport outside of London is almost always just not up to scratch. If we as a society actually want people to stop using cars, we need to improve public transport options many times over. Cheaper, faster and more reliable. In some areas such as rural areas it's never going to be feasible, but in many parts of the country it's sad to see the opportunities missed.

We should not generalise. As an example, Southern Vectis in the Isle of Wight are excellent.

 

[Coolzac]

We should not generalise. As an example, Southern Vectis in the Isle of Wight are excellent.

I agree, and that's why I said almost always. But the fact of the matter is most people outside of London have a car. If we want to reach a situation where that's not the case, or at least where car isn't always the default option, public transport needs to improve massively around the country. I think we can do it- we are a small, densely populated country.

 

[THC]

I travelled to the Epping and Ongar Railway today by vintage bus 339 from Shenfield to Ongar. After a bit of thrash I've walked back from North Weald to Chelmsford. None of my day out would have been possible without the imagination of the EOR in running that bus service.

THC

 

[John Luxton]

Perhaps a carrot should be attached to the stick for encouraging those to travel by public transport - a discount for showing a valid ticket upon the booking office, for instance?

One or two lines allow for through booking from Network Rail, perhaps more with convenient interchanges should offer this?

I am surprised for example the likes of Vale of Rheidol don't.

I have had two Explore Wales 4 in 8 day tickets in past year or so.

The TfW web site suggests that discounts might be available at several heritage lines for Explore Wales pass holders (see https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/ticket-types/rovers-and-rangers/explore-wales) amongst those listed was the VoR but when I enquired at the ticket office there was no concession.

 

[renegademaster]

Perhaps a carrot should be attached to the stick for encouraging those to travel by public transport - a discount for showing a valid ticket upon the booking office, for instance?

Heritage railways are stretched enough, it's not their job to subsidise public transport for green cred

 

[geoffk]

We should not generalise. As an example, Southern Vectis in the Isle of Wight are excellent.

I've just returned from 5 days on the IoW and visited the steam railway twice. The car park at Haven Street is very large and there's a small one, and a bus stop, at Wootton. A few passengers joined the steam train from Island Line at Smallbrook Junction (there's another thread about unreliable connections here) but the overwhelming majority began their journey at Haven Street. I used a few Southern Vectis buses and they were of a good standard and on time.

I've sometimes found bus information on heritage railway leaflets to be out of date (even though only a list of routes/operators is all that can realistically be provided). I wrote to the South Devon Railway a couple of years ago about this and had a positive reply but I see the current leaflet is out of date again because of recent bus route changes. This must apply to hundreds of other visitor attractions. Do bus operators routinely notify all these organisations of route/number changes? I doubt that they have the time or staff to do it, likewise local authorities.

 

[stuu]

Heritage railways are stretched enough, it's not their job to subsidise public transport for green cred

Car parking isn't free to provide though, so there is an incentive to attract more people by public transport

 

[renegademaster]

Car parking isn't free to provide though, so there is an incentive to attract more people by public transport

It's not much an ongoing cost other than maybe some resurfacing every 5 years. Once the car park is built its pretty much done, and some have plenty of street parking around.

 

[spyinthesky]

As a frequent visitor to heritage lines, public transport for me comes at a large cost compared to driving.
It takes an hour to get to my nearest station by bus or the cost of parking there is astronomical.
Travel to Kidderminster for example will take me five and a half hours by public transport and cost nearly £165 for two of us. Driving is just over £20.

 

[smsm1]

I'm a parent with two kids and have no car. I love in Falkirk and past of the reason for choosing the house was being in sight of a rail station and some good bus connections. About a quarter of households in Falkirk don't have a car based on the census.

I was recently at a days out with Thomas event at Bo'ness. There was at least 2 members of staff or volunteers just to organise the parking and ensure people were parking optimally, it was full to overflowing.

What surprised me more was that the information about how to get the have no indication of how to get there other than by car. We took the bus which stops outside. They are also on the national cycle network with level route to nearby towns and cities. It was actually a cycle ride with the kids that got them excited and wanting to go as happened to be a previous days out with Thomas event!

It's harder to keep the public transport information up to date than the car park information. Even Traveline who now manage PlusBus can't keep the list of operators up to date (eg McGill's take over of first South East Scotland services), so how can we expect mostly volunteer run attractions to do so? I think there are ways to write it so that information is pointing to other sites such as Google maps, Apple Maps, and Traveline.

There get more revenue by being able to get more people in and using the space for the event rather than car parking.

If we as a society are to survive we need to use private cars less. People are so quick to complain about congestion but don't realise that they are part of the cause by driving. Even small proportion of journeys done by another mode can really help to reduce congestion.

 

[JGurney]

It's not much an ongoing cost other than maybe some resurfacing every 5 years. Once the car park is built its pretty much done, and some have plenty of street parking around.

In some cases the railway might have already owned land which was of no other use but was suitable for a car park, but otherwise they are either paying for renting or leasing the land used or are forgoing the income or utility which they could otherwise derive from that land.

I sometimes ask motorists who rant about the price of parking why, if they maintain it really is overpriced, they don't take advantage of that by investing in some land there and making a profit offering cheaper parking and reaping a constant flow of customers. The real answer is usually that given the price of land at the location, it would actually be pretty difficult to succed as a commercial parking provider.

 

[xotGD]

Of course, some heritage railways charge for parking at one or more of there stations.

There then needs to be a balance between bringing in additional revenue and not putting off potential visitors. Plus not annoying local residents if people park off site to avoid the charge.

 

[stuu]

It's not much an ongoing cost other than maybe some resurfacing every 5 years. Once the car park is built its pretty much done, and some have plenty of street parking around.

Free resurfacing? No ongoing opportunity cost of having a massive empty piece of land which could be used more productively?

People have a real blind spot when it comes to parking, we expect to be able to store our possession for no or a low cost everywhere. I'm the same too, but it makes no sense when you stop and think about it

 

[Merle Haggard]

I was recently at a days out with Thomas event at Bo'ness. There was at least 2 members of staff or volunteers just to organise the parking and ensure people were parking optimally, it was full to overflowing.

What surprised me more was that the information about how to get the have no indication of how to get there other than by car. We took the bus which stops outside.

I also visited Bo'ness by public transport (obviously involving an overnight stay). It's never straightforward. I went by train to Linlithgow then caught the bus from there. All the routes that serve Bo'ness are circular ones based on Linlithgow so the route is Linlithgow - Bo'ness - back to Linlithgow. There are, I think, other circular routes from the town. So when you're looking for the right bus stop in Linlithgow you find that they all say 'Linlithgow' on them. Perfectly logical - that's the final destination of the bus - to someone who clearly has never used a bus in a strange town...

On another railway; the first train from London on Sunday mornings arrives at the National Rail station nearest to a station on their line just before mid-day, and it's a 15 minute walk across town to the H.R. station. The H.R. runs trains irregularly at about 1 1/2 hours headway but one departs 10 minutes after the N.R. one making the connection impossibly tight, and then there's a longer than usual gap. When I suggested it might be useful to take that into account and slightly retime the train I was told to alight at the N.R. station further South and join the H.R. there; when I asked what the buses were like between the N.R. and H.R. station on a Sunday morning (it's about 4 miles) they were hazy. But, curiously, in this case, parking near the first-named station is difficult (no car park & parking restrictions) so one might have thought that they would benefit from the custom of those arriving by public transport.

Yet another railway connects directly with N.R. at one end; at the other, the station only has a car park. The timetable on the H.R. is such that, when you are leaving.by the last train, you arrive on the H.R. train in time to see the N.R. still in the platform but by the time you've reached it's platform, the doors are locked. On the third occasion this happened to me I returned to the H.R. station and asked whether they'd ever thought of retiming their trains slightly to avoid a long wait for the next train. Two people gave two different answer; the first, that the T.O.C. should re-time their trains (and I think he was being serious) and the other that I was being selfish because this would inconvenience people joining at the other end - who, of course, all arrive by car so can be more flexible.

Does using trains to travel (rather than look at) make me a very unusual railway enthusiast?

 

[renegademaster]

Free resurfacing?

Hence the words "other than"

No ongoing opportunity cost of having a massive empty piece of land which could be used more productively?

Practically speaking, most railways haven't got the funds to suddenly build a huge new trainshed. The car park can be used for events too. Most are in the middle of nowhere too so selling it off to developers isn't going to be especially profitable unless it's a high demand area and you could get the locals not to block any houses

 

[John Luxton]

Of course, some heritage railways charge for parking at one or more of there stations.

There then needs to be a balance between bringing in additional revenue and not putting off potential visitors. Plus not annoying local residents if people park off site to avoid the charge.

The SVR charge more for parking at Bridgnorth and Kidderminster (£4) than GWR do at Okehampton (£2)!

I do think that attractions (and hotels) with car parks should factor in the cost of running their car parks into their other customer charges.

I for one will not stay at a hotel where I am expected to pay for parking. I will pay a modest amount for rail parking but I would rather parking be free and the car park costs recovered elsewhere.

Motorists have enough costs to bear these days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The SVR charge more for parking at Bridgnorth and Kidderminster (£4) than GWR do at Okehampton (£2)!

I do think that attractions (and hotels) with car parks should factor in the cost of running their car parks into their other customer charges.

I for one will not stay at a hotel where I am expected to pay for parking. I will pay a modest amount for rail parking but I would rather parking be free and the car park costs recovered elsewhere.

Motorists have enough costs to bear these days.

Premier Inn charges for some of its car parks, but only generally at those premises where parking is limited. It's rather fairer that those who do get to park pay for it than that we all pay for it even if a space is unavailable, as otherwise I'm paying twice if I have to park elsewhere as it's full.

At out of town hotels, where there's enough for a space per room and arrival by car is expected, it's generally included.

This is probably so for railways and other attractions too - if there's enough for everyone make it free, if there's not then charge, both to regulate demand and to avoid people having to effectively pay for it twice if they can't find a space.

Obviously parking at South East commuter stations is different - in that case it's more a means of having an unregulated revenue stream that can be increased at will, as the actual train fares most people pay are regulated.

 

[xotGD]

The SVR charge more for parking at Bridgnorth and Kidderminster (£4) than GWR do at Okehampton (£2)!

I do think that attractions (and hotels) with car parks should factor in the cost of running their car parks into their other customer charges.

I for one will not stay at a hotel where I am expected to pay for parking. I will pay a modest amount for rail parking but I would rather parking be free and the car park costs recovered elsewhere.

Motorists have enough costs to bear these days.

Free parking, with "costs recovered elsewhere" means that those arriving by public transport have to subsidise those arriving by car.

 

[John Luxton]

Free parking, with "costs recovered elsewhere" means that those arriving by public transport have to subsidise those arriving by car.

But it is invisible to all and spreads the cost fairly. I use public transport and my car to access heritage attractions and don't feel strongly about subsidising a car park if I arrive on the bus or train.

One also wonders why places which were previously free have started to charge? A classic case of that is the National Trust, generally parking was free but in recent years one now has to pay for car parking as well. Doesn't bother me as I am an NT member - but I have seen quite a few grumbles about this.

Motorists feel as though they are being constantly hammered for more cash in some - though not all locations and I understand the resentment. There is an on-going war on motorists.

Premier Inn charges for some of its car parks, but only generally at those premises where parking is limited. It's rather fairer that those who do get to park pay for it than that we all pay for it even if a space is unavailable, as otherwise I'm paying twice if I have to park elsewhere as it's full.

At out of town hotels, where there's enough for a space per room and arrival by car is expected, it's generally included.

This is probably so for railways and other attractions too - if there's enough for everyone make it free, if there's not then charge, both to regulate demand and to avoid people having to effectively pay for it twice if they can't find a space.

Obviously parking at South East commuter stations is different - in that case it's more a means of having an unregulated revenue stream that can be increased at will, as the actual train fares most people pay are regulated.

Problem is with some hotels that charge for car parking - they make their car park available to anyone - not just guests. From signs I have seen at the Crowne Plaza in Liverpool anyone can use their car park - just pay at reception which suggests the car park is being used as a "cash-cow" rather than being reserved for just guests.

If a hotel has a car park it should just be for guests and those using the bars and restaurant. I regularly stay at a hotel in Devon in the middle of Dartmoor - residents and bar / restaurant customers get free parking everyone else pays £5 for the day which is fair enough, they do have a large car park. If it is busy public car parking is suspended.

Talking to one of the managers a few years ago their view was they didn't mind people parking if they came in and had a drink or something to eat and actually spent some money - but they had quite a few people parking up who just used the car park and went off on walks. That led them to decide to bring in a charge which was £3 up to a year or so ago but increased to £5 when yellow lines were painted on the nearby main road!

They still have not installed any ANPR cameras so I don't actually know if they effectively police their charges - I suspect they don't - though I have been to hotels which have similar free parking though have a terminal at reception or in the bar where one enters your registration number.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One also wonders why places which were previously free have started to charge?

Probably because it's now much easier. You don't need an expensive Pay and Display cash accepting machine and to pay someone to empty it and to walk around checking. You just contract a company who put everything in place for you with mobile phone payment and camera enforcement, and it's funded by them keeping the fines.

That's why random abandoned bits of land these days tend to be quickly repurposed as paid for car parks - it costs next to nothing to implement one.

 

[John Luxton]

Probably because it's now much easier. You don't need an expensive Pay and Display cash accepting machine and to pay someone to empty it and to walk around checking. You just contract a company who put everything in place for you with mobile phone payment and camera enforcement, and it's funded by them keeping the fines.

That's why random abandoned bits of land these days tend to be quickly repurposed as paid for car parks - it costs next to nothing to implement one.

All this could be ended if owner details could not be released to third parties.

The only people who should have the right to keeper details should be the police and government.

Private companies should not be allowed to access this information.

Without it they could not enforce parking restrictions and penalty charge notices.

Don't get me wrong I am not in favour of allowing random parking as it would lead to chaos but the rise of these managed car parks and their often unfair charges and penalties which cause the most angst amongst motorists.

Parking charges at heritage railways should be "invisible" if not free but those visiting by rail or bus should get a discount on production of their travel ticket.

That discount being the equivalent of the parking charge.