How could heritage railways encourage more visitors to arrive by public transport?

[Bletchleyite]

All this could be ended if owner details could not be released to third parties.

There'd be an even easier way to end it - everyone parks safely and legally for a few months and they'd stop being profitable. These companies exist simply because people park badly and without consideration for others or the rules.

Plus - if you charge for parking you need enforcement as otherwise people won't pay.

 

[Box]

But it is invisible to all and spreads the cost fairly. I use public transport and my car to access heritage attractions and don't feel strongly about subsidising a car park if I arrive on the bus or train.

How on earth does it spread the cost fairly, only you are using the land you are parked on, why shouldn’t you pay for that?

 

[John Luxton]

There'd be an even easier way to end it - everyone parks safely and legally for a few months and they'd stop being profitable. These companies exist simply because people park badly and without consideration for others or the rules.

I don't believe that is true.

Personally I have not had a problem with any of these parking companies (touch wood!) but one reads of many people who do and when one reads in to the reasons why they have been penalised it appears so petty.

One issue which seems to have come to the fore in recent years is the mistyping of a registration numbers on some of the new pay and display machines. Sometimes, the buttons don't always work properly or the user mistypes one letter or number and despite paying have still received a penalty charge.

it is as though the operators are just trying to find ways to catch people out and profiteering from it.

How on earth does it spread the cost fairly, only you are using the land you are parked on, why shouldn’t you pay for that?

It does. Everyone pays something to maintain the car parking spaces.

However, one does question why the Severn Valley now find it necessary to charge £4 day when the South Devon Railway do not charge.

As I said later in my thread we could reward those who chose to access a heritage line by public transport by giving them a discount.

Thus the car will pay the standard fare which would include the cost of the car parking - but it would not appear that they were being charged for car parking.

it is all about being subtle.

 

[stuu]

But it is invisible to all and spreads the cost fairly. I use public transport and my car to access heritage attractions and don't feel strongly about subsidising a car park if I arrive on the bus or train.

One also wonders why places which were previously free have started to charge? A classic case of that is the National Trust, generally parking was free but in recent years one now has to pay for car parking as well. Doesn't bother me as I am an NT member - but I have seen quite a few grumbles about this.

Providing car parking is not free. There is often a big cost to providing it - we don't expect to store any of our other possessions on other people's land for nothing so why are cars any different?

 

[John Luxton]

Providing car parking is not free. There is often a big cost to providing it - we don't expect to store any of our other possessions on other people's land for nothing so why are cars any different?

But why do some places charge and others do not?

Obviously those that don't charge recover their costs invisibly which is a fairer way of doing things, then the motorist does not feel penalised.

Also when one is visiting a heritage railway or other similar attraction one is presumably spending money.

I can see the point of charging people who use parking facilities at a heritage attraction / hotel etc who just use the car park - but customers should not really be asked to pay a fee an additional fee just to park.

It would be like visiting an out of town supermarket and being asked to pay to use their car park! Do you think any of the big supermarket operators would do this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously those that don't charge recover their costs invisibly which is a fairer way of doing things, then the motorist does not feel penalised.

It's not fairer at all. Those who don't use the car park still pay for it.

 

[John Luxton]

It's not fairer at all. Those who don't use the car park still pay for it.

But not apparently so. As I said the incentive for those not using a car would be a discount on the production of a valid network rail / bus ticket.

 

[dakta]

How could heritage railways encourage more visitors to arrive by public transport?​

My gut feel as unpopular as it will be is, the railway needs to decide whether it wants to run a heritage railway or whether it want to be a manager of peoples travel arrangements.

If it makes sense to come by public transport fine, but if it makes more sense to come by car then it's car.

The alternative is not to bother.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But not apparently so. As I said the incentive for those not using a car would be a discount on the production of a valid network rail / bus ticket.

So no discount if you cycle or walk?

Charging for the specific act of arriving by car by way of charging for parking is clearly easier and preferable. It also provides an incentive for a group to travel in fewer cars, improving space availability. And people are used to paying for parking these days, so few will object to the extent of loss of custom.

 

[paul1609]

It's not fairer at all. Those who don't use the car park still pay for it.

Surely it's a circular argument if the Premier inn/ heritage railway didn't have a car park it wouldn't exist at all so there wouldn't need to be public transport to serve it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely it's a circular argument if the Premier inn/ heritage railway didn't have a car park it wouldn't exist at all so there wouldn't need to be public transport to serve it.

In urban areas offering parking is far from universal.

With Premier Inns, the ones located by motorway junctions assume arrival by car and provide free parking with at least a space per room, whereas the urban ones assume a mix and provide no parking or only a small amount that is chargeable.

 

[stuu]

But why do some places charge and others do not?

Obviously those that don't charge recover their costs invisibly which is a fairer way of doing things, then the motorist does not feel penalised.

I realise this is very off-topic - but why, logically, should you feel penalised for being charged to keep your (expensive) possession somewhere?

 

[John Luxton]

So no discount if you cycle or walk?

Charging for the specific act of arriving by car by way of charging for parking is clearly easier and preferable. It also provides an incentive for a group to travel in fewer cars, improving space availability. And people are used to paying for parking these days, so few will object to the extent of loss of custom.

As for cycling and walking I imagine in many cases those that live nearby do not visit local heritage attractions as they are very close.

Here in Liverpool there are a number of attractions which if they were somewhere else I probably would have visited - but because they are so close I have not visited for example The Williamson Tunnels. the Battle of the Atlantic Control Room. However, there are places in Wales and the West Country I have visited many other times.

I don't think I unique in this as I have often heard other people comment that they don't tend to visit local attractions. It probably has something to do with them always being there and being taken for granted.

You say people are used to paying for parking - is that really the case as a number of heritage lines make a big thing of FREE parking. Only some charge.

 

[robert thomas]

There is an on-going war on motorists.

Nothing like the war on rail passengers. First the government freezes the duty on petrol for ten years, then caps bus fares for three years whilst hiking rail fares every year.

 

[Krokodil]

I for one will not stay at a hotel where I am expected to pay for parking. I will pay a modest amount for rail parking but I would rather parking be free and the car park costs recovered elsewhere.

Motorists have enough costs to bear these days.

If you can have free parking, can I have a free shuttle bus to/from the nearest National Rail station? That would be fair.

There is an on-going war on motorists.

According to the Daily Mail at least.

Personally I have not had a problem with any of these parking companies (touch wood!) but one reads of many people who do and when one reads in to the reasons why they have been penalised it appears so petty.

Sometimes, but often it's down to the stupidity of the general public. In ANPR car parks some people accept tickets from people who are departing from said car park, and wonder why they get stung. It's not difficult to spot that it's not pay & display, it's well signed!

As I said later in my thread we could reward those who chose to access a heritage line by public transport by giving them a discount.

Thus the car will pay the standard fare which would include the cost of the car parking - but it would not appear that they were being charged for car parking.

it is all about being subtle.

This is a reasonable idea, but will probably have some whinging about "stealth taxes" or something.

So no discount if you cycle or walk?

Some HRs offer a local resident discount, it would stand to reason that anyone walking or cycling is probably a resident. Doesn't allow for hotel guests though. Simpler to charge for parking.

Here in Liverpool there are a number of attractions which if they were somewhere else I probably would have visited - but because they are so close I have not visited for example The Williamson Tunnels. the Battle of the Atlantic Control Room. However, there are places in Wales and the West Country I have visited many other times.

I don't think I unique in this as I have often heard other people comment that they don't tend to visit local attractions. It probably has something to do with them always being there and being taken for granted.

It's definitely not unique, I'd say that overlooking local attractions is very common.

 

[renegademaster]

One reason heritage railways could be apprehensive to start charging for parking is to keep the good will of their neighbors when it comes to future planning applications. If they start charging, a good chunk are just going to park in surrounding streets for free , sour the opinion the neighbors have of them, and who will then file a billion complaints every time they try to get planning permission

 

[Krokodil]

Just arrived in a hostel in Europe. The equivalent of £9 for parking in the hostel's own car park.

Luckily I arrived by public transport so do not need to pay.

 

[Llanigraham]

However, one does question why the Severn Valley now find it necessary to charge £4 day when the South Devon Railway do not charge.

Because Joe Public started using the SVR car park in Kidder instead of using the more expensive Council car parks, and thereby stopping SVR customers using it.

It would be like visiting an out of town supermarket and being asked to pay to use their car park! Do you think any of the big supermarket operators would do this?

And some now do exactly that!

 

[John Luxton]

Because Joe Public started using the SVR car park in Kidder instead of using the more expensive Council car parks, and thereby stopping SVR customers using it.



And some now do exactly that!

I can see the point at Kidderminster but the car park at Bridgnorth isn't convenient for the shops. Not used an out of town shopping centre which does charge. They must be fairly rare.

 

[JGurney]

it would stand to reason that anyone walking or cycling is probably a resident.

Not always. I have arrived at or left from several HR's on foot or by bicycle when I didn't live anywhere near them (I live in London).
Ones that come to mind:

• Walking to Eskdale Green (R&ER) for trains Ravenglass>Lancaster>London
• Trains from London to Dalegarth (R&ER) and setting off on foot.
• Walking to Plas Y Nant (Welsh Highland Rly) for trains to London.
• Walking to Wallingford (Cholsey & Wallingford Rly) for trains to London
• Bike-on-trains Bridgnorth (SVR) to London
• Bike-on-trains Boscarne (Bodmin & Wenford) to Saltburn
• Bike-on-trains London to Swanage (SR).
• Bike-on-trains London to New Alresford (Mid-Hants)
• Bike-on-train on the Bluebell Rly as part of an otherwise bike-bourne journey from Lewes to Reigate.

we could reward those who chose to access a heritage line by public transport by giving them a discount. Thus the car will pay the standard fare which would include the cost of the car parking - but it would not appear that they were being charged for car parking.

Only if they are either so unobservant or so innumerate that they do not realise non-motorists pay less. Otherwise, whether you call it a car park fee or a discount for not using the car park, anyone with the maths skills of a bright 7-year-old can see that the two are really the same and mean you pay more if you arrive by car.

 

[Krokodil]

Not always.

This is why simply charging for parking is easiest

 

[stuu]

Only if they are either so unobservant or so innumerate that they do not realise non-motorists pay less. Otherwise, whether you call it a car park fee or a discount for not using the car park, anyone with the maths skills of a bright 7-year-old can see that the two are really the same and mean you pay more if you arrive by car.

It's amazing how many mental hoops people will put themselves through just because of the war on the motorist. If only public policy had been car-centred for decades, then we could drive everywhere along roads designed for the purpose

 

[paul1609]

But why do some places charge and others do not?

Obviously those that don't charge recover their costs invisibly which is a fairer way of doing things, then the motorist does not feel penalised.

Also when one is visiting a heritage railway or other similar attraction one is presumably spending money.

I can see the point of charging people who use parking facilities at a heritage attraction / hotel etc who just use the car park - but customers should not really be asked to pay a fee an additional fee just to park.

It would be like visiting an out of town supermarket and being asked to pay to use their car park! Do you think any of the big supermarket operators would do this?

At my rural heritage railway which aspires to have a national rail connection but hasn't got there yet we've had discounts with two of the major bus operators, discounted through tickets with the local toc/ major national bus company. We've organised sat connecting bus services from the national rail station. The county council has organised a bus service with through ticketing connecting 2 national rail stations us, a national trust and a English heritage property. None of them has ever attracted more than "very notional" business. Most of the se heritage railways with national rail connections have through tickets that offer discounted travel. None of them reach anywhere near significant sales.
We have since moved our limited resources to online advanced discounted tickets which are now at around 57% of our fares income.

 

[E759]

I also visited Bo'ness by public transport (obviously involving an overnight stay). It's never straightforward. I went by train to Linlithgow then caught the bus from there. All the routes that serve Bo'ness are circular ones based on Linlithgow so the route is Linlithgow - Bo'ness - back to Linlithgow. There are, I think, other circular routes from the town. So when you're looking for the right bus stop in Linlithgow you find that they all say 'Linlithgow' on them. Perfectly logical - that's the final destination of the bus - to someone who clearly has never used a bus in a strange town...

Visited Bo'Ness & Kinneil Railway / Scottish Railway Preservation Society Museum in 2019. Obviously me being me that was a day trip: Horsham-St.Pancras, Kings Cross-Waverley-Linlithgow, bus. Same on the return. Pretty simple really.

I use Google maps to locate bus stops, without which I'd be lost. Take Bangor as an example, You'd guess the bus to Caernarfon stopped right outside the station? But no, it's up the road! That was another interesting day trip doing both the WHR & FR. A few more trains involved and an insane belief that everything would run to time.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Visited Bo'Ness & Kinneil Railway / Scottish Railway Preservation Society Museum in 2019. Obviously me being me that was a day trip: Horsham-St.Pancras, Kings Cross-Waverley-Linlithgow, bus. Same on the return. Pretty simple really.

I use Google maps to locate bus stops, without which I'd be lost. Take Bangor as an example, You'd guess the bus to Caernarfon stopped right outside the station? But no, it's up the road! That was another interesting day trip doing both the WHR & FR. A few more trains involved and an insane belief that everything would run to time.

Interesting, thanks.

I didn't have a problem finding the bus stops either - I recollect that they were shown on the town map at the station - (my bold) just that they all (on both sides of the road) claimed to be the stop for a bus to Linlithgow. In the centre of that town...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I use Google maps to locate bus stops, without which I'd be lost. Take Bangor as an example, You'd guess the bus to Caernarfon stopped right outside the station? But no, it's up the road! That was another interesting day trip doing both the WHR & FR. A few more trains involved and an insane belief that everything would run to time.

While it'd be better if it was outside (the T10 does) I guess the traffic lights would cost it 5 minutes or so to come into the station. It's literally only a bus length up the road to be fair.

I have found it well before Google Maps was even a thing.

 

[Krokodil]

While it'd be better if it was outside (the T10 does) I guess the traffic lights would cost it 5 minutes or so to come into the station. It's literally only a bus length up the road to be fair.

I have found it well before Google Maps was even a thing.

At least the bus stop on that hill does tell you what buses are due. While the 5C is frequent and would probably lose too much time if it went via the station front, it would be nice if the T2 and whichever Sherpa serves Bangor these days did.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least the bus stop on that hill does tell you what buses are due. While the 5C is frequent and would probably lose too much time if it went via the station front, it would be nice if the T2 and whichever Sherpa serves Bangor these days did.

I'd agree the Sherpas should, as they're much more likely to be used by confused tourists than the "mainline" services and as they're infrequent missing one is more consequential. Though to be fair that leg of the Sherpa is also a local bus for Deiniolen etc.

(Along similar lines, the Sherpa at Betws should serve the coach park layby immediately outside the station and not that silly bus stop hidden away in the car park).

 

[JGurney]

If only public policy had been car-centred for decades,

It has been!

 

[Titfield]

At my rural heritage railway which aspires to have a national rail connection but hasn't got there yet we've had discounts with two of the major bus operators, discounted through tickets with the local toc/ major national bus company. We've organised sat connecting bus services from the national rail station. The county council has organised a bus service with through ticketing connecting 2 national rail stations us, a national trust and a English heritage property. None of them has ever attracted more than "very notional" business. Most of the se heritage railways with national rail connections have through tickets that offer discounted travel. None of them reach anywhere near significant sales.
We have since moved our limited resources to online advanced discounted tickets which are now at around 57% of our fares income.

Yes agreed. All these initiatives seem like an excellent idea (and they are) but as you state the problem is that uptake is pitifully low despite considerable amounts of effort and funding going to promote them.

The mind set of the average UK resident is to use the car for just about every single journey and only think about public transport if it involves an airport (because of the cost of parking) or London (also for the cost of parking plus the congestion charge plus the congestion itself).