How could TfW services realistically be improved?

[yorkie]

Following the recent thread regarding a poll where it was claimed that TfW offer the worst service in the UK, here is your opportunity to make suggestions for how TfW services could realistically* be improved.

(* If anyone has any ideas that are really radical and/or based on fantasy, these would be best posted elsewhere as a separate thread)

 

[HST43257]

1) Make the service attractive

This is basically already being done, with all the new fleets coming in and frequencies increasing, especially in South Wales Metro areas.


2) Prioritise services

Work out what services can bring in revenue, and what services are run because they’re told to. I think it should be the case that Manchester to SW Wales is limited stop (not majorly) between Shrewsbury and Swansea, with something like a 1tph Holyhead to Cardiff all shacks stopper, given I feel there’s less demand there.


3) Work out ways to limit car travel through integration with other transports.

We have seen the first signs of this (afaik), with the ticket integration with buses between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen. Things like this are good imo, but it should also be good interchange times - no 40 min waits etc.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Isn't this already happening with new rolling stock being delivered, the metro project(s) and a have campaign for new staff, etc? Things take time, but improvements are happening.

There are historical and political contexts here to, one being that the Welsh Government don't have certain responsibilities in this area, plus of course funding (HS2 benefits etc). Then there's the whole historical aspect which stretches back over 20 years where the original francise with Arriva was set up as "no growth" - this latter fact as we can see has had huge impacts on today's situation. To be honest, given what they have started with and what they have TfW seems to be doing a good job.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some key bus integrations in the journey planners and e-ticketed would really help. But practically everything else is riding on the arrival of the new stock - their main problem is shortage of rolling stock leading to overcrowding and cancellations, as well as poor cosmetic appearance because you can't have it out of service long enough to tidy it up.

I would also suggest a fully clockface timetable should be implemented. It isn't far off, but it is off enough to be annoying with regard to connections.

 

[Ken H]

Need to upgrade some signalling. too many staff in small boxes. Especially Shrewsbury - Newport. Expensive and unreliable.

 

[wobman]

There's no simple solutions to be honest, tfw are restricted by so many elements.
They need more units now but non are available.
keeping the 175s woukd be good but caf need Chester depot. So the 175s would have to be moved ecs from longsight depot each morning and return each evening.

What about getting more Mk4s, the gc units needs mods and won't be available until December 2022. What about hsts too much training required and costly.

Getting more sprinters , tfw have got all the 153s they can and they all need work and prm mods. They are good sets and have poor reliability.

I can go on and on but there seems to be no easy solutions, things will improve as 2022 goes on.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Bring in an emergency timetable to reflect the rolling stock and staffing levels they currently have.
Yes strictly speaking it wouldn't result in less services being overcrowded or more services being run (indeed it may result in some more cuts), but I'd argue that it would actually improve the the services as you could have more confidence that your chosen train is actually going to run.

Start giving some hard and fast dates for when people can actually expect an improvement. Its great them going on about how they are getting new stock and how in a few years the South Wales Metro will be amazing, but that doesn't help people right now. By all means sell how great it will be, but set some realistic expectations too (e.g. the media blitz about the new FLIRT's last week should have been accompanied by some actual dates for when people can expect them to be in use by).

 

[stuu]

Following the recent thread regarding a poll where TfW were found to offer the worst service in the UK, here is your opportunity to make suggestions for how TfW services could realistically* be improved.

(* If anyone has any ideas that are really radical and/or based on fantasy, these would be best posted elsewhere as a separate thread)

The basic premise of this question is incorrect: TfW were considered by their users to be the worst in the UK. Which is not remotely the same thing as found to offer the worst service. Some sort of metrics would be useful to see if there is anything objectively true about the statement so I looked them up: For the last quarter their punctuality and cancellations were both slightly lower than average. I'm sure there are many improvements to be made but their performance isn't objectively worse than any other TOC

 

[yorkie]

The only other TOC that comes close is Northern. For me it's a combination of poor customer service, appalling treatment of passengers, inappropriate messaging as well as the poor reliability.

I see TOCs such as TfW and Northern as rather anti-customer but I am not really sure there are any quick wins; I believe both TOCs have poor attitudes from the very top, so unless the people at the top of the company are changed to be less anti-customer, it's a lost cause in my opinion. They are rotten to the very core.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The only way TfW can improve is completely reassessing themselves and actually putting passengers first. During recent issues I was given four reasons by four members of staff, none of which acknowledged the fact XC were running on the same line.

Until TfW can be bothered to get you home they will maintain their deserved and well earnt reputation. Leaving you stranded after them telling you to travel isn't acceptable and someone must have the foresight to come up with plans, rather than telling customers there's nothing they can do!

 

[wobman]

The only other TOC that comes close is Northern. For me it's a combination of poor customer service, appalling treatment of passengers, inappropriate messaging as well as the poor reliability.

I see TOCs such as TfW and Northern as rather anti-customer but I am not really sure there are any quick wins; I believe both TOCs have poor attitudes from the very top, so unless the people at the top of the company are changed to be less anti-customer, it's a lost cause in my opinion. They are rotten to the very core.

Both tocs are in transition from years of lack of investment in the franchises, I know Northern are recruiting heavily and it takes time to train up staff especially after the covid restrictions.

 

[L401CJF]

From personal experience in the North I noticed an improvement from near enough day 1 of the TfW takeover from Arriva Trains Wales. My local line-Bidston to Wrexham- had been a shambles as long as I can remember going back to the days of First North Western. I can't remember how soon it was after the TfW takeover but it seemed pretty quick - they upped the Sunday frequency from every 2 hours to every hour which was brilliant. Then over time the PRM modified units started appearing with their USB charging and so on and now the refurbished units are regulars which seem to be done to a relatively good standard and a huge improvement to the filthy Arriva interiors.

This time of year is always difficult as we know with slippery rails, units needing attention due to wheelflats and the extra issues caused by recent storm damage.

I'm currently on a conductor course with TfW and here's what I know. There is a huge push for customer service. We have been preached above and beyond customer service since day 1. We were told Arriva Trains Wales just didn't care about much at all really and there has been a huge push to improve the image and customer experience. I do know training has gone up a certain creek with no paddle due to the pandemic and staffing is an issue. I was told there are over 20 conductor courses planned over the next few years which is almost unheard of, and they've had to shuffle courses for the South as far forward as they can due to shortages. There has also been an investment in a bigger training centre in Chester to help accommodate more courses. One of the issues of course is the sheer length of the courses. Conductors training now will be for the May timetable change, and drivers courses take even longer as we know.

I've been told from those in the know that the 769s are atrocious and they are desperate to get them out of service. Also been told as we all know the 230s have been a pain throughout the entire process and there's even been talk - more likely gossip- that they've even been looking into the possibility of using 197s on Bidston to Wrexham and abandoning the 230 project all together. However as we now know they're looking to add a fueling point at Birkenhead North so presumably the 230s will be staying.

The 197s are looking fairly promising and apparently CAF have been great addressing any issues brought up by driver/conductor team feedback so far.

Unfortunately most of the issues have been caused by the s#$t show left by ATW and those before them, Covid affecting timescales for training, and poor delivery of promise for the 769 and 230 projects.

Things are looking pretty promising for the future in my eyes, but these things can't be sorted quickly - after all this is the railway!

 

[Zontar]

I think this Cambrian news newspaper article sums it up.
Better customer service at the top, more empathy and more trains.

TfW couldn't manage a model railway set | cambrian-news.co.uk

I knew that there was going to be a problem pretty much as I trundled my weekend bag up the ramp to Bow Street Station.

www.cambrian-news.co.uk

 

[Western 52]

HS2: Transport for Wales boss wants equivalent funding for Wales

The HS2 rail project is classed as an "England and Wales" project despite not crossing the border.

www.bbc.co.uk

Interesting article here. Not sure how this could help TfW though in reality.

 

[anthony263]

Tfw should have asked to keep a small fleet of class 143s to work with the class 150s on the valley lines to help boost capacity.

Sooner the class 769s are gone the better as they've been a big letdown although they are good when they work. Hopefully the situation on the rhymney will start to improve soon.

Overcrowded trains not helping matter plus its not helpful that the milford haven/carmarthen to Manchester services are having to cover swanline stations too which is causing services to get extremely busy even before they've gotten to port Talbot or Bridgend at times. Hopefully in.the future we'll get a hourly off peak swanline stopper service which will help

 

[wobman]

The overcrowding is on most tfw routes I go on nowadays, tfw are putting 2 car 158s on services to Birmingham regularly. This used to happen very rarely during times of disruption but now its a daily occurance.

Keeping some pacers woukd have been a better plan but who knew covid would happen ! Tfw planned for the 230s and 769s to work but they are disasters and the Mk4s would work straight out of the box and they have reliability issues.

 

[Caaardiff]

Tfw should have asked to keep a small fleet of class 143s to work with the class 150s on the valley lines to help boost capacity.

The overcrowding is on most tfw routes I go on nowadays, tfw are putting 2 car 158s on services to Birmingham regularly. This used to happen very rarely during times of disruption but now its a daily occurance.

Keeping some pacers woukd have been a better plan but who knew covid would happen ! Tfw planned for the 230s and 769s to work but they are disasters and the Mk4s would work straight out of the box and they have reliability issues.

Pacers are gone. TfW would've kept them if they were allowed to. They weren't.

All Birmingham services are planned to be 4 cars. If there are short forms its down to unit shortages. Short forming services isn't ideal, but avoids cancellations for services that are only 2 cars. There's also alternative options with WMR on that line.

 

[wobman]

Pacers are gone. TfW would've kept them if they were allowed to. They weren't.

All Birmingham services are planned to be 4 cars. If there are short forms its down to unit shortages. Short forming services isn't ideal, but avoids cancellations for services that are only 2 cars. There's also alternative options with WMR on that line.

The alternative wmt services are not ideal for many passengers though, it means changing trains at Salop and much a slower service plus they terminate at New Street instead of international. This route is a busy route serving a big city and running a 2 car service isn't ideal especially if any social distancing is needed, I get the impression services outside of S Wales are less of a priority unfortunately.

 

[Caaardiff]

The alternative wmt services are not ideal for many passengers though, it means changing trains at Salop and much a slower service plus they terminate at New Street instead of international. This route is a busy route serving a big city and running a 2 car service isn't ideal especially if any social distancing is needed, I get the impression services outside of S Wales are less of a priority unfortunately.

Not necessarily true as you'll often see 150's and 153's covering for 158s. 150's are the most in demand of the fleet as they are required for Valleys services. If you see 150's in the North covering 158's then it's likely a Valleys service will be short formed or even cancelled.

 

[wobman]

Not necessarily true as you'll often see 150's and 153's covering for 158s. 150's are the most in demand of the fleet as they are required for Valleys services. If you see 150's in the North covering 158's then it's likely a Valleys service will be short formed or even cancelled.

So what units are booken run on the Wrexham to Bidston line ??? 150s....
Plus only 158s run on the cambrian due to ertms, my point was about shortcoming services to Birmingham. The odd 150 or 2x153s goes there but the booked traction are 2x158s mostly.

I was pointing out that Birmingham services need improving, as they are regularly single 158s.

 

[tomuk]

So what units are booken run on the Wrexham to Bidston line ??? 150s....
Plus only 158s run on the cambrian due to ertms, my point was about shortcoming services to Birmingham. The odd 150 or 2x153s goes there but the booked traction are 2x158s mostly.

I was pointing out that Birmingham services need improving, as they are regularly single 158s.

They should be 6 car all the time.

 

[wobman]

They should be 6 car all the time.

I agree 1000%

 

[Caaardiff]

So what units are booken run on the Wrexham to Bidston line ??? 150s....
Plus only 158s run on the cambrian due to ertms, my point was about shortcoming services to Birmingham. The odd 150 or 2x153s goes there but the booked traction are 2x158s mostly.

I was pointing out that Birmingham services need improving, as they are regularly single 158s.

158s do Birmingham to Holyhead as well as Cambrian. If you re-read my post it says 150s covering 158s, not booked 150 work. I'm well aware that 150s work Bidston and Blaenau lines.

Up until last summer there were some booked 6 car peak time services, and since the summer, when all required 158s are in service then they will nearly always be 4 car, until the last services of the day. I imagine the intention would be to return peak time services to 6 car.

Edit: according to real-time trains the 1706 off international was a 6 car yesterday so guessing its returned under the new timetable.

 

[algytaylor]

As someone living in Wrexham, I've felt TfW have done a reasonable job of improving the services so far, although no doubt things haven't gone quite to plan due to the pandemic. But seeing more staff on Wrexham station, direct services to Liverpool at key times (with more on the way), and the improvements on the line to Bidston - I think they've done alright all things considered.

Things I think could be improved:

- better/further integration with TrawsCymru services.
- something simple they could do for leisure travellers (maybe commuters?) is an onboard 'deliveroo' type service. So I could get on at Wrexham, order a sandwich and magazine from the shop on Shrewsbury station, and it's delivered to my seat when (just after?) I pass through the station. Could also order things for before, eg for the same journey a paper from WH Smith's on Chester station. You pay, what, £2-£3 for just-eat to deliver so why not offer a similar service for a similar fee? Could be a boon for little cafes/station shops en route, and used as a force for building small businesses in rural areas.
- on train entertainment, especially for long journeys. Just seems a really simple way to offer more, even if it's just coming to an arrangement with BBC to have a selection of iPlayer content available for streaming.
- set target travel times and frequencies to nearest shopping area, nearest major town/city, nearest airport, London, & Cardiff for every locality. These could be fulfilled either by bus or rail services, but as an example there should be a goal for goal for somewhere like Knighton (HoWL) to have a regular link to somewhere with a range of shops (easy as it could count Knighton itself), but also regular & frequent public transport to a major town (Shrewsbury or Hereford are the obvious ones), airport (so the services should provide a usable, regular service to either Manchester or Birmingham airport), and then also provide a regular service with through tickets to Cardiff and London.

The latter would probably mandate either a regular TrawsCymru service to Hereford or improved frequency on the HoWL. The goal would NOT be to instantly put these in place, but as a blueprint for how the public transport service should develop over a 20/30/40 year period.

 

[Anonymous10]

As someone living in Wrexham, I've felt TfW have done a reasonable job of improving the services so far, although no doubt things haven't gone quite to plan due to the pandemic. But seeing more staff on Wrexham station, direct services to Liverpool at key times (with more on the way), and the improvements on the line to Bidston - I think they've done alright all things considered.

Things I think could be improved:

- better/further integration with TrawsCymru services.
- something simple they could do for leisure travellers (maybe commuters?) is an onboard 'deliveroo' type service. So I could get on at Wrexham, order a sandwich and magazine from the shop on Shrewsbury station, and it's delivered to my seat when (just after?) I pass through the station. Could also order things for before, eg for the same journey a paper from WH Smith's on Chester station. You pay, what, £2-£3 for just-eat to deliver so why not offer a similar service for a similar fee? Could be a boon for little cafes/station shops en route, and used as a force for building small businesses in rural areas.
- on train entertainment, especially for long journeys. Just seems a really simple way to offer more, even if it's just coming to an arrangement with BBC to have a selection of iPlayer content available for streaming.
- set target travel times and frequencies to nearest shopping area, nearest major town/city, nearest airport, London, & Cardiff for every locality. These could be fulfilled either by bus or rail services, but as an example there should be a goal for goal for somewhere like Knighton (HoWL) to have a regular link to somewhere with a range of shops (easy as it could count Knighton itself), but also regular & frequent public transport to a major town (Shrewsbury or Hereford are the obvious ones), airport (so the services should provide a usable, regular service to either Manchester or Birmingham airport), and then also provide a regular service with through tickets to Cardiff and London.

The latter would probably mandate either a regular TrawsCymru service to Hereford or improved frequency on the HoWL. The goal would NOT be to instantly put these in place, but as a blueprint for how the public transport service should develop over a 20/30/40 year period.

also be a lucrative little venture for tfw if it went well presumably

 

[liamf656]

- better/further integration with TrawsCymru services.

This I agree with

- something simple they could do for leisure travellers (maybe commuters?) is an onboard 'deliveroo' type service. So I could get on at Wrexham, order a sandwich and magazine from the shop on Shrewsbury station, and it's delivered to my seat when (just after?) I pass through the station. Could also order things for before, eg for the same journey a paper from WH Smith's on Chester station. You pay, what, £2-£3 for just-eat to deliver so why not offer a similar service for a similar fee? Could be a boon for little cafes/station shops en route, and used as a force for building small businesses in rural areas.

There is too much scope for this to go wrong. It’ll require a lot more staff and it just doesn’t look like it could be done reliably. Passengers should buy food and drinks and anything else before they board. Maybe on the longer distance service on-board catering could be offered but again that can be expensive for both the TOC and the passengers

- on train entertainment, especially for long journeys. Just seems a really simple way to offer more, even if it's just coming to an arrangement with BBC to have a selection of iPlayer content available for streaming.

Again, this could only be useful on longer journeys, and if the train has power sockets and wifi, it would reduce the need considerably

 

[algytaylor]

There is too much scope for this to go wrong. It’ll require a lot more staff and it just doesn’t look like it could be done reliably. Passengers should buy food and drinks and anything else before they board. Maybe on the longer distance service on-board catering could be offered but again that can be expensive for both the TOC and the passengers

I don't think there is, though. Processing, packaging, and delivery from store to platform would be handed by the shop's own staff. They can recoup their costs through (a) selling more stuff, and (b) adding a service charge for packing/delivery. Like any of the popular food delivery services, really. It would only be open to those who could directly serve the station (i.e. basically just on-site shops, maybe some that were very close to the station).

The shop person takes the bag to the correct platform, and hands the bag over to conductor / trolley person, who delivers it to seat. TfW's costs are offset by adding a service charge. Either the shop or the on-train staff have the ability to turn 'off' the service if it's not feasible to run it for whatever reason, e.g. overcrowding.

It's not some kind of novel idea I've had - Lumo do the same thing on their services, and IMO it's a really good idea. As is their luggage delivery service - I think that'd perhaps be harder to implement over a full network (maybe at key stations where there'd be sufficient staff?). But the LumoEats service, to me it's a really easy thing to (a) work on a wider scale, (b) use to support local Welsh businesses, (c) improve the on-platform experience for passengers*, and (d) develop a new, fairly risk-free revenue stream for TfW

* shops wouldn't necessarily be limited by the number of people who actually use the station, since they could serve people on trains that pass through the station - so potentially you could see more 'rural' locations having an obvious place to open new shops, where the customer base wouldn't be limited exclusively to local people.

 

[wobman]

I don't think there is, though. Processing, packaging, and delivery from store to platform would be handed by the shop's own staff. They can recoup their costs through (a) selling more stuff, and (b) adding a service charge for packing/delivery. Like any of the popular food delivery services, really. It would only be open to those who could directly serve the station (i.e. basically just on-site shops, maybe some that were very close to the station).

The shop person takes the bag to the correct platform, and hands the bag over to conductor / trolley person, who delivers it to seat. TfW's costs are offset by adding a service charge. Either the shop or the on-train staff have the ability to turn 'off' the service if it's not feasible to run it for whatever reason, e.g. overcrowding.

It's not some kind of novel idea I've had - Lumo do the same thing on their services, and IMO it's a really good idea. As is their luggage delivery service - I think that'd perhaps be harder to implement over a full network (maybe at key stations where there'd be sufficient staff?). But the LumoEats service, to me it's a really easy thing to (a) work on a wider scale, (b) use to support local Welsh businesses, (c) improve the on-platform experience for passengers*, and (d) develop a new, fairly risk-free revenue stream for TfW

* shops wouldn't necessarily be limited by the number of people who actually use the station, since they could serve people on trains that pass through the station - so potentially you could see more 'rural' locations having an obvious place to open new shops, where the customer base wouldn't be limited exclusively to local people.

The timings of most tfw services would be a big hurdle, lots of stations have 30 seconds dwell times, only busy stations get over 1 minute.
It's a novel idea maybe send the idea off to the tfw management, they can look at the feasibility or email the at seat catering part of tfw.

There's a nice coffee shop at Frodsham that could do it, plus a coffee shop at Gobowen and if you fancy a beer maybe Helsby.That's not including the costas at Chester/ Salop etc it's a novel idea