How did the railway actually work in the days of steam?

[SquireBev]

I like to think I'm reasonably clued up on railway matters, but there remain large gaps in my knowledge, mostly concerning how the railways of the past actually operated on a daily basis. I could tell you all sorts of things about closed lines, old stations, which companies ran trains in which areas, who designed what locomotives, but I've genuinely no idea how the railway itself operated, especially from the point of view of the passenger/customer.

So, let's assume it's the 1930s, and I'm a reasonably well-off factory owner in the West Riding. I live in Brighouse, and I have a factory in Halifax making jars of jam and marmalade.

How do I get my goods to market? How long would it take a consignment of jam to reach customers in Leeds, say, or Manchester? What sort of wagons would it be carried in?

How do I get raw materials to my factory? How would fruit, sugar, and glass jars be delivered to my factory, assuming I don't have a private siding? If I do have a private siding, would I have my own wagons?

How do I get to and from the factory every day? What are the local passenger services like? How much would it cost? Were season tickets available?

How do I get to London for meetings with my insurance people? What options would I have for getting to London? What would be the quickest route, and what would be the cheapest?

How do I organise an annual seaside holiday for my workers? How much would this cost?

I realise this may be a tall order, but I'm grateful for any help you can offer

 

[snakeeyes]

Watch some British transport films on Youtube, lots to see, this might help.

 

[GusB]

"Fully Fitted Freight" may be worth watching, but as snakeeyes says, there are lots on YouTube - just search for British Transport Films.

[YOUTUBE]bXv9AdQ-R9k[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]IJkzhD7kpvQ[/YOUTUBE]

 

[TheEdge]

I've got a 1947 GWR timetable book and I can at least use that to shed some light on the state of local passenger services. It looks like an hourly-ish (but not clockface) timetable was fairly common. For the GWR services not many passenger services run before 0530, very few after 2200. Although I did note in the Welsh Valley tables there are a fair few workers trains, so I imagine if SquireBev Jam and Marmalade Concern was a large enough local employer maybe the LMS or LNER might have been persuaded to arrange a worker's train.

The fastest route to London would probably have been into Leeds and then down the ECML to Kings Cross, enjoy the golden age of A4s...

The excursion trains would no doubt be organised in a similar way to the charter trains of today, contact the company, arrange something.

 

[SquireBev]

British Transport Films look very promising, thanks!

 

[krus_aragon]

I like to think I'm reasonably clued up on railway matters, but there remain large gaps in my knowledge, mostly concerning how the railways of the past actually operated on a daily basis. I could tell you all sorts of things about closed lines, old stations, which companies ran trains in which areas, who designed what locomotives, but I've genuinely no idea how the railway itself operated, especially from the point of view of the passenger/customer.

So, let's assume it's the 1930s, and I'm a reasonably well-off factory owner in the West Riding. I live in Brighouse, and I have a factory in Halifax making jars of jam and marmalade.

How do I get my goods to market? How long would it take a consignment of jam to reach customers in Leeds, say, or Manchester? What sort of wagons would it be carried in?

How do I get raw materials to my factory? How would fruit, sugar, and glass jars be delivered to my factory, assuming I don't have a private siding? If I do have a private siding, would I have my own wagons?

How do I get to and from the factory every day? What are the local passenger services like? How much would it cost? Were season tickets available?

How do I get to London for meetings with my insurance people? What options would I have for getting to London? What would be the quickest route, and what would be the cheapest?

How do I organise an annual seaside holiday for my workers? How much would this cost?

I realise this may be a tall order, but I'm grateful for any help you can offer

If your factory is of any reasonable scale, it's likely to be rail-connected and have a private siding. After all, you've been smart and built your factory near good transport links, haven't you? (Here's a jam factory in Derbyshire that had its own siding.) If you're a smaller concern, you might have you get your goods to the nearest station by horse and cart, and arrange for your ingredients to be collected. This approach doesn't scale up very well, hence the importance of siting your factory next to a railway.

Privately owned wagons would still be very common in the 1930s: they were a carry-over from the canal/turnpike road way of doing things, letting anyone send their vehicles along the route having paid the appropriate monies to the infrastructure owner. At first private individuals could send their own engines to haul their trains, but railway companies soon took that in-house for safety (and other) reasons. This old tradition of private owner wagons is part of the reason that unfitted (brake) freight trains and chain and buffer couplings were still in use here until the second half of the 20th century: getting so many small owners to upgrade/replace their rolling stock would have been too complex a job. Railway also built their own wagons to convey goods. The 1930s would be about the time that companies were starting to experiment with containerisation, too.

Look here for an index of pre-1948 privately owned goods wagons (from page 3 onwards): the number of companies is significant.

Your wagons of freshly jarred jam would be collected once a day (or more often, of you're that busy) by a small goods engine, possibly a part of a local goods working. This would be taken to the nearest goods yard, where it would be combines with other wagons and conveyed onward to the main shunting yard. (I can't speak for Yorkshire's railways, but in my corner of the world, goods from Anglesey would be taken to Menai Bridge yard near Bangor in the first instance, where it would be combined with freight from Caernarfonshire and then conveyed on to Basford Hall south of Crewe.) Similarly, your wagons of sugar, fruit etc. would be brought by a local goods train, possibly part of the same working. If you're using plain box vans you might load your jam into the same wagons for shipment out.

In the 1930s, I'd expect that most of your workers will still live within walking distance of the factory. Some railways ran workmen's trains, either because they were required to by the act of Parliament that established them, or because they saw a market for it. You might be able to influence them to start a service, but it may require the exchange of money for them to be interested in doing so. My impression is that they were most common in large cities, or near quarries/mines. Railways would offer a cheaper "Workmen's Fare", which would only be valid on one or two trains a day. These trains would be timed to coincide with shift changes, and might stop at a halt right next to your railway sidings if there was enough custom. For further reading, here's a report to Parliament on which railways operated workmen's trains in 1900. Naturally, as the factory owner, you wouldn't travel on a workmen's train, and might take a cab from the local railway station instead when you visited.

As for an annual seaside holiday, that's fairly straightforward, as you're just chartering a passenger train. Thomas Cook had been doing this since 1841, by liaising with the local railway company. (See here for some history.) It's easily done today if you've got enough people travelling.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I like to think I'm reasonably clued up on railway matters, but there remain large gaps in my knowledge, mostly concerning how the railways of the past actually operated on a daily basis. I could tell you all sorts of things about closed lines, old stations, which companies ran trains in which areas, who designed what locomotives, but I've genuinely no idea how the railway itself operated, especially from the point of view of the passenger/customer.

So, let's assume it's the 1930s, and I'm a reasonably well-off factory owner in the West Riding. I live in Brighouse, and I have a factory in Halifax making jars of jam and marmalade.

How do I get my goods to market? How long would it take a consignment of jam to reach customers in Leeds, say, or Manchester? What sort of wagons would it be carried in?


How do I get raw materials to my factory? How would fruit, sugar, and glass jars be delivered to my factory, assuming I don't have a private siding? If I do have a private siding, would I have my own wagons?

How do I get to and from the factory every day? What are the local passenger services like? How much would it cost? Were season tickets available?

How do I get to London for meetings with my insurance people? What options would I have for getting to London? What would be the quickest route, and what would be the cheapest?

How do I organise an annual seaside holiday for my workers? How much would this cost?

I realise this may be a tall order, but I'm grateful for any help you can offer

Unfitted goods and mineral trains were the norm. The L&Y guaranteed next day delivery to the nearest goods depot if delivered to the despatching depot before a certain time. Delivery from depot to customer by local Road transport. Pilfering and damage of goods in transit was normal. I remember my mother saying that in the 1930s the Halifax furniture company she worked for switched from rail to their own road transport for those reasons. Most passenger trains were dirty and slow but had a virtual monopoly until competition from buses and trams kicked in. Outside major commuter places the passenger timetables were cast around goods train movements and were irregular and often infrequent. I remember one occasion when travelling back to Preston from Liverpool on a weekday afternoon. On turning up at Exchange station I was advised to go to Lime Street to get a Wigan train and from there get a train to Chorley then from Chorley to Preston. Hardly a decent service. Of course there were exceptions such as all local freight services around Preston stopping around 4.00pm to allow the city to coast commuter trains a clear run through including the club train and be ready for the evening goods trains to make a start. The excursion and extra trains from Manchester and the cotton towns to the coast were usually non corridor local commuter coaches - torture on a slow late evening train from Blackpool held for twenty minutes one so outside Kirkham. I don't suppose travelling on the X60 buses between Blackpool and Manchester was much fun either. No wonder people bought cars as soon as they could afford. The other side of the coin I remember was, as a child, being extremely thirsty and too hot on a non corridor train that crawled from signal to signal along the North Wales coast on the way. To summer hols. That journey was never done again.
Don't believe the rosy glow of nostalgia about the good old days of steam age railways. There was excellence but mostly it was indifferent service provided by a virtual monopoly. Today rail travel, in my part of Lancashire is much much better than the good old days.

 

[SquireBev]

Some very useful insights here chaps. Thanks very much.

On the subject of private owner wagons. Were the owners responsible for maintenance, and if so, was there a problem withdecrepit and unsafe wagons causing accidents?

 

[DarloRich]

So, let's assume it's the 1930s, and I'm a reasonably well-off factory owner in the West Riding. I live in Brighouse, and I have a factory in Halifax making jars of jam and marmalade.

How do I get my goods to market? How long would it take a consignment of jam to reach customers in Leeds, say, or Manchester? What sort of wagons would it be carried in?

How do I get raw materials to my factory? How would fruit, sugar, and glass jars be delivered to my factory, assuming I don't have a private siding? If I do have a private siding, would I have my own wagons?

Assuming you to be a large and forward thinking concern you have built your new factory with its own siding. If you don't have a sidging i assume your vehicles would be dropped off form some kind of pick up freight service or a local trip working. If not I assume you would have to transport your goods/ materials to and from the LMS good depot in Halifax. (Shaw Syke?)

I don't know enough to say if you would orgnaise your own transport or whether the LMS would be contracted to haul.

How do I get to and from the factory every day? What are the local passenger services like? How much would it cost? Were season tickets available?

Surely you would have your man drive you in the Rolls. Although I wonder if a titan of local commerce would live in Brighouse. Surely you would be up Sowerby/Hebden Bridge way.

Most staff would live close to the works and would either walk or come by tram. I assume junior managers may come from further afield and may come by train/cycle/motorbike but only the most senior people would have a car

It is interesting if you look at the social structure of industrial towns from this period. I don't know enough about Halifax but using Darlington as a comparison you see lots of housing near to the railway works or Cleveland Bridge. What is interesting is the size of houses radiating away from the works and a clear job status driving a change in size

Firstly small two up two down terraces (manual workers), then 3 bed terraces (foremen), then small semis (craftsmen/shop stewards), then larger semis with a garden ( junior managers/engineers) then detached houses/large semis with front and back gardens (senior managers) finally some way out grand Edwardian villas ( owners/directors).

How do I get to London for meetings with my insurance people? What options would I have for getting to London? What would be the quickest route, and what would be the cheapest?

Interesting. Halifax is LMS but I assume you would go to Leeds for a LNER train to London.

As a local big wig I assume you would be looking at travelling, first class, on one of the LNER named services like the Queen of the Scots Pullman or the Yorkshire Pullman. Those services would carry a premium fare/supplement of about 5 shillings for first class above the usual fare. ( Based on the advertising for the Silver Jubilee). Assuming a penny a mile fare + the supplement that would work out at about £35 in today's money.

(note that average wages for industrial workers were about 1 shilling at hour at that time)

How do I organise an annual seaside holiday for my workers? How much would this cost?

I am sure the LMS would be very happy to run another service to Blackpool in wakes week. No idea of the costs.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting. Halifax is LMS but I assume you would go to Leeds for a LNER train to London.

Halifax had the LNER route via Queensbury too, but I don't think the LNER got near Brighouse. However the LMS had London trains at Huddersfield (and maybe beyond) via the Stalybridge-Stockport link.

 

[SquireBev]

I'm sure I've seen references to trains leaving Halifax with "through coaches" to Kings Cross. Does this mean coaches attached to a local service and dropped off somewhere to be picked up by an express? How did this work?

 

[edwin_m]

I'm sure I've seen references to trains leaving Halifax with "through coaches" to Kings Cross. Does this mean coaches attached to a local service and dropped off somewhere to be picked up by an express? How did this work?

These were quite common and you are correct, they would be shunted onto a London train at some convenient station. In the reverse direction there were even "slip coaches" that were uncoupled from the train in motion and braked to a stop in the station by their own guard.

 

[30907]

These were quite common and you are correct, they would be shunted onto a London train at some convenient station. In the reverse direction there were even "slip coaches" that were uncoupled from the train in motion and braked to a stop in the station by their own guard.

A through portion, reversing at Huddersfield, survived into the 70s. I think until the 50s Halifax would have had services to Marylebone via Penistone as well, and possibly Euston via Stockport, don't think St Pancras though.

BTW, your board meeting or whatever in London might have started with luncheon, or you might have had lunch rather than breakfast in the dining car (plus dinner on the return).
10am starts are an Inter-City era invention....

 

[DarloRich]

A through portion, reversing at Huddersfield, survived into the 70s. I think until the 50s Halifax would have had services to Marylebone via Penistone as well, and possibly Euston via Stockport, don't think St Pancras though.

BTW, your board meeting or whatever in London might have started with luncheon, or you might have had lunch rather than breakfast in the dining car (plus dinner on the return).
10am starts are an Inter-City era invention....

surely one would travel the day before, reside & dine at ones club and have the company driver collect you

 

[ChiefPlanner]

surely one would travel the day before, reside & dine at ones club and have the company driver collect you

Quite - the policy for next day's Board would be agreed over several large brandies in the smoking room of the Atheneum or similar.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A through portion, reversing at Huddersfield, survived into the 70s. I think until the 50s Halifax would have had services to Marylebone via Penistone as well, and possibly Euston via Stockport, don't think St Pancras though.

BTW, your board meeting or whatever in London might have started with luncheon, or you might have had lunch rather than breakfast in the dining car (plus dinner on the return).
10am starts are an Inter-City era invention....

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing carriage destination boards on MML trains to either Halifax or Huddersfield (or possibly both) in days when Scots and Jubilees ruled the roost. Specifically, (this is dangerous after so many years) I feel there was an afternoon train out of St Pancras, perhaps around 14.15?

Anyone got a timetable from about 61 to confirm or otherwise?

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing carriage destination boards on MML trains to either Halifax or Huddersfield (or possibly both) in days when Scots and Jubilees ruled the roost. Specifically, (this is dangerous after so many years) I feel there was an afternoon train out of St Pancras, perhaps around 14.15?

Anyone got a timetable from about 61 to confirm or otherwise?

(1958) There was indeed a 14:15 from St. Pancras, first stop Nottingham Midland, but that ran to Bradford Forster Square via Leeds.

Also there was a 10:00 Bradford Exchange to Marylebone via Halifax, Huddersfield & Penistone; that ceased circa 1962 when the GC London - Nottingham through services were reduced to 3 per day plus an overnight service. (In some earlier years, this train avoided Halifax, presumably running via the Spen Valley & Mirfield.)

The 1949 ER timetable shows one service from Halifax, Bradford Exchange & Morley Top to Wakefield Westgate, where it joined a Leeds - Kings Cross service.

As for some other points:

As commented above, most factory workers lived locally, or within a short bus or bike ride. Only a few might commute by train - most likely the more senior "white collar" staff.

And away forom large towns - if your factory was on a branch line, it was pot luck as to whether or not the timetable permitted commuting. Some branch line services were dire, and it is difficult to comprehend how the railway thought it could attract passengers.

Unless you were a particularly benevolent employer, many factory workers would be unable to afford an annual holiday - a once or twice per year Bank Holiday "day out" is the most they could hope for - and at that time few workers got more than 1 - 2 weeks annual holiday allowance.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The July 1938 Bradshaw shows that Halifax enjoyed two through services to St. Pancras and return - the through coaches were attached / detached at Sheffield Midland to / from the main Bradford FS services. These portions ran over the Midland Rly's expensively-engineered and partially completed 'Bradford Cut-Off' route via Thornhill. They were suspended during WW2 and never reinstated.

 

[eastdyke]

Jam - Tiptree, 'A Potted History':

https://www.tiptree.com/index.php/ourcompany/a-potted-history.html

Started growing fruit in 1865, jam making in 1885.

A couple of references to the railway:

Fruit farming in Tiptree involved growing the fruit, then taking it by horse and cart to Kelvedon railway station and from there on to London for sale at the markets.

The opening of a rail link between Kelvedon and Tollesbury via Tiptree did much to help the business and also encouraged population growth as travel became accessible to more and more people.

Some very interesting comments about the effects (on the Company) of the war years.

Back to Halifax, would the owner have been required to make trips to London at all?

There were stock exchanges in many northern towns and cities that existed to facilitate business. I believe that there were provincial stock exchanges in (amongst other places) Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax, Sheffield, Manchester etc.

The business owner may not have needed to travel further than say Leeds.

 

[DarloRich]

What would timings be like travelling from halifax to Leeds and changing for an express to London v using a "through" carriage or travelling via the GCR or LMS routes?

 

[SquireBev]

Finally got round to watching the Fully Fitted Freight short film. Fascinating stuff.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Finally got round to watching the Fully Fitted Freight short film. Fascinating stuff.

Horribly inefficient though - your prime train of the day for the north leaves from am open siding - (leading to transhipment of stuff arrived in the UK's largest good covered shed at Temple Meads to this miserable siding) - imagine doing that in mid Winter when loading fags and perishables etc.

The 448pm fully fitted should have left from the well equipped Temple Meads - but it was a "Midland" route freight. No wonder road took the whole lot. (in a few years)

Nice film though and as someone said , about the best representation of the working (freight) railwayman.

 

[Bevan Price]

What would timings be like travelling from halifax to Leeds and changing for an express to London v using a "through" carriage or travelling via the GCR or LMS routes?

Times varied from year to year, These are examples from Summer 1955 (SX); other services were also available, some of which might be slightly faster (or slower). (Showing selected stops only)

(Though train)
Bradford Ex. 10:00
Halifax Town 10:16
Huddersfield 10:42
Sheffield Vic. 11:34
Marylebone 15:29

-----------------------------------
(Through train)
Halifax Town 09:00
Reversal at Bradford Ex
Bradford Ex. 09:20 / 09:31
Morley Top 09:52
Wakefield Westgate 10:04
attach to 09:50 ex- Leeds Central
Wakefield W dep. 10:18
Kings Cross 13:47

-------------------------------------
(One change)
Halifax Town 08:45
Stockport Edgeley 09:56
Change trains.
Stockport Edgeley 10:21
London Euston 14:02
(on certain summer dates, you could arrive Euston 13:55 using a Colne - Euston service)

-----------------------------------------
(One change)
Using the MML from Leeds would have required a walk between Leeds Central & Leeds City.

For example, there was
Halifax Town 08:26
Leeds Central 09:12

Leeds City 09:42
St. Pancras 14:08

-------------------------------------