How do different types of 387s differ from each other? (and from 377s)

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A few questions about the 387s if I may please:

In the last few years of the Electrostar, orders for the 387 suddenly boomed, and now we have three subclasses and several operators.

Can I ask, are the number of seats and quantity of luggage storage space the same in all 387s, or does this vary among brands and subclasses? In particular are there any differences between those operated by GTR, seeing as they operate Great Northern, Gatwick Express and recently limited Southern services? I believe some Gatwick Express 387s formerly worked for Thameslink as well - it begs the question - since the GX branded 387s were delivered, what GTR routes have they operated?

I'd love to know exactly which GTR services are formed of 387s, other than obviously the GX services? Are there regular diagrams or can they turn up anywhere in lieu of a 377? It wasn't too long ago we were seeing them in Eastbourne? (Obviously I know they run to King's Lynn from KGX) I'm sure I've seen a YouTube video of one going to Portsmouth before.

Also, does anyone know if the Gatwick Express 387s and typical Southern units (such as the 377s) differ in terms of luggage space and number of seats? I just wondered, as travelling on a packed Express train the other day, I wondered if the designated airport trains for Gatwick would have better provision than Southern's.

If anyone has a seating plan for GTR's 387s (ideally both GX and normal versions), and possibly some for the 377s, that would be gratefully received. There is a GWR one ( https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdf...ssist/facilities-guide-april-2021-low-res.pdf ); does this differ in any way?

Many thanks for any replies in advance. It intrigues me to know just how much of our railway is almost homogenised. That door is firmly closed now of course, with the Aventra programme succeeding it (although perhaps not as much of a proven success just yet!)

 

[KC1]

A few questions about the 387s if I may please:

In particular are there any differences between those operated by GTR, seeing as they operate Great Northern, Gatwick Express and recently limited Southern services?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the 387s have never been badged specially as Southern, they were borrowed from GEX for a few months. I think you may mean 377/6/7 which look identical to their 387 counterparts.

 

[Energy]

I believe some Gatwick Express 387s formerly worked for Thameslink as well

The GX 387s were ordered for Gatwick Express, the 387s currently on Great Northern were originally for Thameslink and were displaced.

what GTR routes have they operated?

A few were loaned to Southern and Great Northern while air traffic was down, a few were also loaned to GWR during the Hitachi cracking problem. I'm not sure which have returned, I believe the current plan is for Great Northern to return their GX 387s when the 6 387s from c2c arrive.

 

[D365]

... the 387s currently on Great Northern were originally for Thameslink and were displaced.

Ordered for Thameslink but to a Southern specification (and still in Southern spec).

 

[david1212]

Most of the 377's have decent seats, I think it is just one subclass that has ' ironing boards ' , unless more now fitted during works visits.

 

[Energy]

Ordered for Thameslink but to a Southern specification (and still in Southern spec).

They were ordered by Southern on behalf of the DfT as well. The plan was that they'd be subleased to Thameslink and when the 700s arrive they'd return to Southern with the 377/5s going to Great Northern.

 

[JonathanH]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the 387s have never been badged specially as Southern, they were borrowed from GEX for a few months. I think you may mean 377/6/7 which look identical to their 387 counterparts.

The Gatwick Express 387/2s have never been Southern branded but they often work Southern branded services under the following circumstances:
* On the East Coastway, as a result of being spare
* When there is engineering work which means Gatwick Express is not running
* For positioning moves, on diagrams which otherwise work Gatwick Express services.

Typically, the passenger information displays show Southern Service (GX carriages). The OP was referring to exactly this kind of 'cross over' work.

A few were loaned to Southern and Great Northern while air traffic was down, a few were also loaned to GWR during the Hitachi cracking problem. I'm not sure which have returned, I believe the current plan is for Great Northern to return their GX 387s when the 6 387s from c2c arrive.

The 6 387s from c2c have already arrived, leaving just one 387/2 (387201) on the Great Northern to give the planned 36 units.

They were ordered by Southern on behalf of the DfT as well. The plan was that they'd be subleased to Thameslink and when the 700s arrive they'd return to Southern with the 377/5s going to Great Northern.

The initial thought was that 387101-387129 would go to GWR once finished on Thameslink, never to Southern. However, GWR made a case for its own fleet and the 387s went to Great Northern, instead of the originally intended 377/5s - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-387.92831/page-101#post-2564064

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m particularly keen to know about the provision of luggage space on the Gx 387s compared to the normal Southern 377s? Does anyone know please if there are more luggage racks on the 387s?

 

[Energy]

The initial thought was that 387101-387129 would go to GWR once finished on Thameslink, never to Southern. However, GWR made a case for its own fleet and the 387s went to Great Northern, instead of the originally intended 377/5s - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-387.92831/page-101#post-2564064

Correct, I forgot that GWR was going to originally be a mix of remaining 365s and 387s.

 

[JonathanH]

The Platform 5 book for 2021 suggests that the seating capacity of the later 377s and the 387s are:

DMS 60 (377/6, 377/7), 56 (all 387s)
MS 64 (377/6, 377/7), 62 (387/1 and 387/3), 60 (387/2)
PTS 46 (377/6, 377/6), 45 (all 387s)
DMS 62 (377/6, 377/7) 60 (all 387s)

I infer from the GWR guide that the 377/6s and 377/7s have no luggage racks, and the 387/2s have one extra luggage rack in the MS vehicle (ie the intermediate coach with the small toilet), but no extra racks in the other coaches. The extra intermediate coach in a 377/6 or 377/7 has 66 seats.

 

[exit.music]

I’m particularly keen to know about the provision of luggage space on the Gx 387s compared to the normal Southern 377s? Does anyone know please if there are more luggage racks on the 387s?

There is more luggage space on 387s compared to 377s, mainly in the form of more large suitcase racks adjacent to the doors.

 

[MCR247]

The Platform 5 book for 2021 suggests that the seating capacity of the later 377s and the 387s are:

DMS 60 (377/6, 377/7), 56 (all 387s)
MS 64 (377/6, 377/7), 62 (387/1 and 387/3), 60 (387/2)
PTS 46 (377/6, 377/6), 45 (all 387s)
DMS 62 (377/6, 377/7) 60 (all 387s)

I infer from the GWR guide that the 377/6s and 377/7s have no luggage racks, and the 387/2s have one extra luggage rack in the MS vehicle (ie the intermediate coach with the small toilet), but no extra racks in the other coaches. The extra intermediate coach in a 377/6 or 377/7 has 66 seats.

The /6 and /7s have no luggage racks that replace seats but they do have an area at the inner carriage ends on the driving vehicles. This space is a locked cupboard/storage area on the earlier models. I believe 387s feature this too, as well as a luggage rack by the doors replacing two seats. I believe this is in each carriage

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The /6 and /7s have no luggage racks that replace seats but they do have an area at the inner carriage ends on the driving vehicles. This space is a locked cupboard/storage area on the earlier models. I believe 387s feature this too, as well as a luggage rack by the doors replacing two seats. I believe this is in each carriage

There is more luggage space on 387s compared to 377s, mainly in the form of more large suitcase racks adjacent to the doors.

Thank you, and would you know if that extra luggage space on Gatwick Express 387s is more or the same as on GTR’s other 387s? It’s interesting mainly because they’re airport express trains - I’d ask the same of the Heathrow Express 387s but I already know they have a thoroughly different and arguably more suitable layout.

 

[MCR247]

As far as I know all GTR 387s have the same layout. If this is the case then red 387s have more luggage space than the 377/1-5s and the same as GN 387s

 

[D365]

As far as I know all GTR 387s have the same layout. If this is the case then red 387s have more luggage space than the 377/1-5s and the same as GN 387s

Aye, I don’t remember there being any distinction between /1 and /2.

 

[Mzzzs]

I am just imagining this but didn't the earlier 377 have some area to store food and drinks for a trolly service?.

 

[MCR247]

I am just imagining this but didn't the earlier 377 have some area to store food and drinks for a trolly service?.

Yes I believe the 375s and earlier 377s have this in the inner end of the driving cars. It’s what I was referring to head

The /6 and /7s have no luggage racks that replace seats but they do have an area at the inner carriage ends on the driving vehicles. This space is a locked cupboard/storage area on the earlier models. I believe 387s feature this too, as well as a luggage rack by the doors replacing two seats. I believe this is in each carriage

 

[jon0844]

The GN ex-c2c 387s (blue doors) appear to have the normal green Southern colour scheme inside. Not sure how many GN currently have.

I've seen a GatEx 387 and c2c 387 paired up on the ECML. Wonder if anyone can find a 12-car with all three sets being different!

 

[JonathanH]

The GN ex-c2c 387s (blue doors) appear to have the normal green Southern colour scheme inside. Not sure how many GN currently have.

They have had all six for a while.

 

[Mzzzs]

A difference in the future will be that the great northern units will have the ETCS v3.6.0 and ECDP v1.1 will be fitted to them with one already gone for fitting in the workshop.

 

[aleggatta]

A difference in the future will be that the great northern units will have the ETCS v3.6.0 and ECDP v1.1 will be fitted to them with one already gone for fitting in the workshop.

Whilst I know what ETCS is, ECDP is a new one on me!

 

[MikeWM]

The GN ex-c2c 387s (blue doors) appear to have the normal green Southern colour scheme inside. Not sure how many GN currently have.

I can't tell any difference whatever between the 'old' GN 387s and the ones from c2c once you're aboard and can't see the doors.

Short of knowing the unit numbers, which I don't, the only difference is that the ex-c2c-units don't have working wifi (which is mildly annoying) - immediately after introduction on the GN side some/all of them had a 'c2c wifi' network which didn't work, now they have nothing.

 

[karlbbb]

Do the 387s have the same common bus for traction current? That being, that any pickup shoe can supply DC to the whole set? I believe that's the case with the 377s?

Just tagging onto this, where you join 2 or 3 377 sets together, does the coupling also extend that common bus throughout the 6/8/12 car sets?

 

[swt_passenger]

Just tagging onto this, where you join 2 or 3 377 sets together, does the coupling also extend that common bus throughout the 6/8/12 car sets?

No. It would not be possible to have the high levels of current that you’d get passing through the type/size of contacts used in an automatic coupler, they're basically for control and communications only.

 

[karlbbb]

No. It would not be possible to have the high levels of current that you’d get passing through the type/size of contacts used in an automatic coupler, they're basically for control and communications only.

Thanks, so if a set were to lose voltage for a moment, that set alone would just stop driving the motors while the other set(s) carried on as normal?

I assume seeing line voltage drop doesn't happen very often on main lines. How about over complex junctions? (This question aimed at you or any experienced folk who happen to read it )

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, so if a set were to lose voltage for a moment, that set alone would just stop driving the motors while the other set(s) carried on as normal?

Correct, yes. When this happens you sometimes get a bit of "jostling" between the units. You can tell when it happens on older Tube stock as the lights fed by the shoe off the "juice" go out.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, so if a set were to lose voltage for a moment, that set alone would just stop driving the motors while the other set(s) carried on as normal?

I assume seeing line voltage drop doesn't happen very often on main lines. How about over complex junctions? (This question aimed at you or any experienced folk who happen to read it )

Yes, in theory, but with the required gaps in the third rail at junctions already being designed to prevent an individual four car unit being gapped that should never happen normally due to all the shoes of a single unit being connected across and along the unit. Possibly could happen with a fairly unusual third rail fault, but I think there were places where a single 456 being much shorter could be fully gapped - if positioned carefully (or unluckily).

 

[karlbbb]

Thanks to you both @Bletchleyite and @swt_passenger ! Very interesting insight - Train Sim World definitely doesn't portray this very well, and it "gaps" all the time. But I'll stop there as I think I've dragged this topic far enough from the original post now

 

[XAM2175]

Whilst I know what ETCS is, ECDP is a new one on me!

East Coast Digital Programme, the overall project for ETCS rollout on the ECML.

 

[D7666]

When I saw this thread started, I was hoping, at last, to get a proper understanding of the difference between 377 and 387.

But, IMHO anyway, the number of seats, or provision for trolleys, luggage racks, livery froth, and the such like would unlikely be the underlying reason for full class demarcation. Yes, those differences exist, but there are equally similar or even larger differences between subclasses within 377 (e.g. 2+2 v. 2+3, seats and so on).

My understanding - which dates from when the first 387s were ordered and before they entered service - is all 387 ex-factory are ETCS ready (i.e. they have the space and cabling and bays for this kit) and 110 mph ready.

Apparently there is a space issue with fitting ETCS on 377s - no blocking point but one that makes it a bigger job than it otherwise would be.

Now, that does NOT mean 377s can not have ETCS nor does it mean 377s can't ever be 110 mph. It simply means 387s are much easier [and cheaper] to adapt either or both when the need arises.

Whether 387/3 went to C2C for example with no imminent Tilbury lines plan for ETCS is irrelevant - medium to long term ETCS will spread anywhere and everywhere.

This info about "ready" came from a contact involved with their construction; however since moved on not much after the first 387s entered traffic.

And.

Surprised no-one has mentioned this.

There are not enough 377/x sub-classes to number all the 387s as 377s AND keep sub-class demarcation unless 377/0 was taken up - and there is (or was) a good reason that I now forget why 377/0 is vacant.

375/0 375/1 375/2 were allegedly left vacant so the TOC could internally shorthand 4 digit numbers 50xx 51xx 52xx for 465s and 53xx upwards for 375s; I say allegedly as that theory falls down with 465/9 and 375/9, and for 6oxx with 466 and 376.

But there was something along that line within their TOC for 377s.