How do people afford a car?

[A0wen]

Agree with that.
Conversely, I don't know why anyone would own a car in London. The options are just a different level from anywhere else.

Define "London" though.

If you live in somewhere like Edgware and you have a job in Stevenage or Luton it makes perfect sense to drive. Or Uxbridge and you need to head south towards Heathrow or beyond.

Central London - Zone 1 / Zone 2 - I might agree with you. Outside that ? Nowhere near as clear cut.

Fair enough. I generally wouldn't buy that old because I want my car to be reliable, and at that sort of age you might be lucky or you might not. An experienced home mechanic with time on their hands is likely to be served well by a 10-15 year old car, that said, particularly if they have welding experience and a welder.

If you buy Japanese you're probably safe - Toyotas and Hondas even at advancing years tend to be very reliable providing basic maintenance and servicing is done.

Case in point, we bought a 3 year old Honda Jazz in 2007 as my wife's car - needed something with 5 doors that could accommodate a pram etc. We finally replaced that car in 2017 when it was ~14 years old. The only time it had failed to start was when one of the children had played with the interior light and my wife hadn't noticed - cue flat battery the next morning. In fact that car still had its original battery when we part exchanged it ! I'll be honest the last 3 years of MOT'ing it I held my breath when I dropped it off at the garage fully expecting a call advising it had failed or some repair was needed - never happened. Perhaps the odd advisory on a tyre but that was it. In fact I checked on the .gov website recently and it's still going with a current MOT - a few things have cropped up in the intervening years, but that's a car which is nearly 20 years old now.

 

[stuu]

Agree with that.
Conversely, I don't know why anyone would own a car in London. The options are just a different level from anywhere else.

I did. Most weeks it went no further than the supermarket so it was a bit unnecessary. Handy when you need to go somewhere though obviously, but absolutely not essential. Most people I knew didn't have cars

 

[JamesT]

If you buy Japanese you're probably safe - Toyotas and Hondas even at advancing years tend to be very reliable providing basic maintenance and servicing is done.

Case in point, we bought a 3 year old Honda Jazz in 2007 as my wife's car - needed something with 5 doors that could accommodate a pram etc. We finally replaced that car in 2017 when it was ~14 years old. The only time it had failed to start was when one of the children had played with the interior light and my wife hadn't noticed - cue flat battery the next morning. In fact that car still had its original battery when we part exchanged it ! I'll be honest the last 3 years of MOT'ing it I held my breath when I dropped it off at the garage fully expecting a call advising it had failed or some repair was needed - never happened. Perhaps the odd advisory on a tyre but that was it. In fact I checked on the .gov website recently and it's still going with a current MOT - a few things have cropped up in the intervening years, but that's a car which is nearly 20 years old now.

I'd say that depends where you can keep your car. My previous Toyota I had from 2 years old until I had an accident in it and it was written off by the insurers at 14 years old. But even before that I was thinking of getting rid of it as it was getting very rusty underneath and potentially had lots of expensive repairs to suspension etc. in its near future. I don't have access to a garage so it spent its life sitting out on the street.

 

[miklcct]

I will definitely move by the coming month into a studio flat with rent approximately £750. If in the future I can earn enough to afford luxuries I will move to a nice apartment in a high-rise building first (10/F or above) in inner London before considering a car.

@miklcct - reading your long posts above I think you still have unrealistic expectations. Nobody in their right mind would try to get to Scotland for something like a race from Bournemouth after work on a Friday unless the Sleeper suited. Just book the Friday off and destress!

The race in Scotland is a World Ranking Event which I do it for ranking If I work full time I need to budget my holidays and I have very few days left for me for such purpose. For example, I will need about a week for the World Championships (possibly more if the national team will have other training events beforehand), at least one day for each weekends overseas ranking race (possibly 2). I will also need some for my swimming challenges as well.

In my first job after graduation I only had 2 weeks of holidays (it was in Hong Kong - already more than the legal minimum). The World Championships took 1 week of it and I didn't have enough left to join the World Scout Conference as a country representative in the same year so I become one of the very few Youth Forum participant to leave early (people normally carried on to the Conference as the Youth Forum was designed to prepare the participants for the Conference).

If I live in London or somewhere with good transport connectivity I won't need to take any holidays to do most of my ranking races, as they generally begin Saturday afternoon and end Sunday noon, allowing people to travel. The only exceptions will be multi-day major events such as the world championships.

With regard to low income, I don't get where you get the idea that two incomes are not better than one. It just doesn't add up!

I can live in a studio if I am alone (1 person) but I will need to upsize if we have 2 people.

Speaking as someone who lives alone on a 'starter' professional salary - getting a car seems very daunting. The cost of learning to drive is very expensive if you can't get the experience with friends/family in their cars.

Very few of my friends are yet to get a licence. - that's coming from a small Derbyshire town. A lot of younger people are going to be skipping their licence with the cost of living crisis getting worse.

Personally, most of my journeys I do by pedal bike. I live near where I work and just shop frequently (kicked supermarket delivery as it is too expensive.)

Train/bus prices are rather painful. It's hard to really get anywhere without going over my weekly budget.

I'm thinking to buy a bike. My main concern is bike theft though as the last time I did it, it was gone on the 2nd day of my new job. I used 2 identical chain locks, locking both the front and the rear wheels with the frame in a public bike park.

If I don't take any London Buses (which are always turtle-slow) my transport cost will be about half compared to using a bus to connect to the train. If I take two buses and two trains my Oyster will definitely cap at £5.10 zone 1-2 (after 09:30), and if repeated 5 times a week plus weekend travel, it will be season-Travelcard-costly but if I only use the Overground (where bikes are banned) my daily cost is only £2.85 (£1.05 off-peak + £1.80 evening peak). My home will be 1.7 km from an Overground station up a straight main road which buses run frequently.

 

[johncrossley]

I will definitely move by the coming month into a studio flat with rent approximately £750.

That's very cheap. Are you sure that's a self-contained studio flat with no shared bathrooom? That's more like a typical rent for a flat share in London.

 

[Jozhua]

I think the big cost that strikes me is learning to drive in the first place, which is especially expensive if you don't have friends/family who are able and willing to take you out driving. Otherwise you are stuck spending £30 an hour for a driving instructor (likely more now!), who were already weapons grade Unobtainium before the pandemic started! Plus, you have the cost of tests. My challenge was being unable to find any test centres last time I was near passing.

Then, I moved out of the area and just don't have the disposable income to spend £60-100 a week for the next 3 months on lessons, then to keep the momentum up for the months I would need to get a test slot - plus more if I didn't pass first time.

I hate public transport.

Doesn't surprise me on this forum!

Interesting article on BBC News about the current driving test backlog:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61265729

 

[MattRat]

Let me tell you about the wonderful world of finance and debt....

It used to be people bought used, but nowadays with finance, it seems everyone wants to live like the Kardashians and will happily get themselves into massive debt to fulfill that fantasy.

 

[richw]

Let me tell you about the wonderful world of finance and debt....

It used to be people bought used, but nowadays with finance, it seems everyone wants to live like the Kardashians and will happily get themselves into massive debt to fulfill that fantasy.

If someone can afford the monthly outlay, then I see no issue with it. I’d rather pay out £200 a month and keep my savings intact in case of emergency or something unforeseen occurring

 

[thejuggler]

If someone can afford the monthly outlay, then I see no issue with it. I’d rather pay out £200 a month and keep my savings intact in case of emergency or something unforeseen occurring

Paying to borrow money at 5%+ to have money in the bank earning 1.5% at most just in case you need it makes no financial sense whatsoever.

It is far cheaper to 'borrow' the money off yourself and pay it back.

If an emergency arises and you need money you can borrow.

 

[stuu]

Paying to borrow money at 5%+ to have money in the bank earning 1.5% at most just in case you need it makes no financial sense whatsoever.

It is far cheaper to 'borrow' the money off yourself and pay it back.

If an emergency arises and you need money you can borrow.

Virtually every spending decision makes little financial or even rational sense. If it did, many brands wouldn't exist at all

Besides, borrowing facilities can be withdrawn without any notice. Spent all your savings and something calamitous happens on the world financial markets? And your dad has had a heart attack in Australia? You're on your own mate

 

[Watershed]

Besides, borrowing facilities can be withdrawn without any notice. Spent all your savings and something calamitous happens on the world financial markets? And your dad has had a heart attack in Australia? You're on your own mate

And that's where overdrafts or credit cards come in. I don't doubt there are circumstances where you'd be better off borrowing whilst keeping a stash of savings, but it's got to be a pretty unlikely and unfortunate set of circumstances.

 

[eMeS]

I'm joining this thread somewhat late, but my experience with used cars is that reliability has been very much better with used versions of the typical "Salesman's car" - in my case an Astra Estate. Prior to this, I was let down by used cars from the affordable but "posh" end of the market including Honda Accord Aerodeck - estate style, and Renault Safrane. The biggest disappointment was the Honda Accord where my used purchase didn't get through to Honda, and so I never received the recall notice about known serious problems in the engine. That experience taught me a serious lesson, and I moved to reliability in the form of Astra Estates - I'm now on my second, and reliability has been fine, although not perfect.

 

[Huntergreed]

I’m a car owner, however I do make the effort to try and either use active transport (such as walking/cycling for short journeys) or public transport where possible.

Living in a rural area where public transport is pretty poor, it’s not essential but absolutely improves living standards and my freedom.

For example, were I to head up north for a day, the absolute latest train I could get back from Glasgow arrives into Dumfries at 21:00 (and leaves Glasgow just after 7), meaning if I want to stay any later than the early evening, I must drive.

If I were to head south, my last train from Carlisle is just after 21:00. Much better, but still limiting in terms of days out at a long distance.

As much as I am a big supporter of public transport, the poor timetables are leading many people in my area to use their private cars considerably more frequently than they would if trains ran later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is certainly a north south divide there. It is not possible for instance to get back to much of the North West after an evening theatre visit or gig in Manchester, yet it is down South from London. To a non car owner that means a hotel is the only option, but a car owner will take the cheaper option and simply drive.

 

[SJL2020]

There is certainly a north south divide there. It is not possible for instance to get back to much of the North West after an evening theatre visit or gig in Manchester, yet it is down South from London. To a non car owner that means a hotel is the only option, but a car owner will take the cheaper option and simply drive.

The killer for me has been most mid-week evening kickoffs moving from 7.45pm to 8pm. Options for getting home by train after 10pm from Manchester become more inconvenient, leading to greater use of the car, unfortunately.

 

[miklcct]

There is certainly a north south divide there. It is not possible for instance to get back to much of the North West after an evening theatre visit or gig in Manchester, yet it is down South from London. To a non car owner that means a hotel is the only option, but a car owner will take the cheaper option and simply drive.

These kind of forum postings has already given me an impression that living in the North will be much worse than what I encountered in Bournemouth last year and results in me only considering London rather than other northern cities in the UK now.

 

[Huntergreed]

These kind of forum postings has already given me an impression that living in the North will be much worse than what I encountered in Bournemouth last year and results in me only considering London rather than other northern cities in the UK now.

Take each city by it’s own merit, but certainly don’t expect services up north to have the frequency and availability (such as early morning and late night services) as services in London and the south east.

One reason why I’m looking at moving to that very area, particularly as I’m keen to avoid driving where possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Take each city by it’s own merit, but certainly don’t expect services up north to have the frequency and availability (such as early morning and late night services) as services in London and the south east.

I think the OP would find Manchester OK if they lived in a city centre apartment or on a Metrolink line, and probably Liverpool if they lived near a Merseyrail station (which mostly runs north-south, with a huge swathe of the city to the north east bus-only). But probably not any other Northern city where public transport is mostly buses and mostly of very poor quality. Though last interurban trains in the North are far too early, you can't for example usefully go from Southport or Lancaster to Manchester for a gig or the theatre and get back without a taxi, and while you could get back to Liverpool you couldn't get anywhere on Merseyrail.

Similarly within Edinburgh or Glasgow would be OK, but don't try getting to the other!

That said the SE isn't a land of milk and honey - 12-car trains every 5 minutes is a myth, most local stations have a half hourly service (or 2tph that are useful, e.g. 2 fast and 2 slow) and usually no more than 8-car with some significantly shorter (e.g. Chiltern runs lots of 2s). The main thing that's useful is last trains being generally no earlier than about 2330 and often much later, e.g. 0010 to Northampton on a Saturday night and 0134 on a weekday/Sunday night.

 

[miklcct]

I think the OP would find Manchester OK if they lived in a city centre apartment or on a Metrolink line, and probably Liverpool if they lived near a Merseyrail station (which mostly runs north-south, with a huge swathe of the city to the north east bus-only). But probably not any other Northern city where public transport is mostly buses and mostly of very poor quality. Though last interurban trains in the North are far too early, you can't for example usefully go from Southport or Lancaster to Manchester for a gig or the theatre and get back without a taxi, and while you could get back to Liverpool you couldn't get anywhere on Merseyrail.

Sunday morning regional service is the most important to me (in order to get to orienteering races), the next is weekday late evening service after a night out.

 

[MattRat]

These kind of forum postings has already given me an impression that living in the North will be much worse than what I encountered in Bournemouth last year and results in me only considering London rather than other northern cities in the UK now.

You can still live without a car in some Northern cities, you just aren't going to any other cities late at night, other than London. Although most people that go to London stay in London, which is why it gets all the public transport, and is starting to resemble mega city one.....

 

[Ken H]

Sunday morning regional service is the most important to me (in order to get to orienteering races), the next is weekday late evening service after a night out.

Sunday services dont really start till 0900 in the North.

 

[Dai Corner]

Sunday morning regional service is the most important to me (in order to get to orienteering races), the next is weekday late evening service after a night out.

How do your fellow orienteers and night out companions travel?

 

[miklcct]

You can still live without a car in some Northern cities, you just aren't going to any other cities late at night, other than London. Although most people that go to London stay in London, which is why it gets all the public transport, and is starting to resemble mega city one.....

Without a car, I'll also need a local train to get home even I'm staying within the city!

Sunday services dont really start till 0900 in the North.

The difference between a 0730 start, as commonly seen around London, and a 0900 start is crucial if I can make the majority of orienteering races on Sundays. With a 0730 start I can still get to most races not too far away from my home and the station, but with a 0900 start most Sunday races are out of reach.

I have never had a problem for a Saturday orienteering race.

How do your fellow orienteers and night out companions travel?

I think that everyone else in my current orienteering club (WSX) has a car. However, I have a few orienteering friends also from Hong Kong in another club (SLOW). They currently live in Greater London and none of them have a driving licence, and travel to races using trains and coaches.

 

[Silver Cobra]

This thread has been a very interesting read and given me great insight into car ownership in general.

My personal circumstances are that I don't own a car and, outside of the odd lift from family members, I rely on using the train to get to work and a combination of the train and bus for leisure journeys. I'm only on an annual income of ~£15K, so I don't have that much disposable income to begin with, but before even considering which car and insurance to get, the first hurdle I have to overcome is finding a place to park it. The only place within a sensible distance from my home is a pay and display car park that charges £5 per day for parking (£1,825 per year). This car park used to be free to park in around a decade ago, but the business who owns it had enough of residents using it for long-term parking and got the P&D installed to dissuade people from using it for this purpose. So before beginning anything relating to the car, that's nearly £2,000 I'd have to pay out just to park near home. There's no other appropriate or safe parking, be it off-street or on-street, without looking at the other end of the town (but then that hits the insurance premium, which will already be fairly high for what would be a new driver with no NCD, even with being in my mid-30s).

Comparing that to my train season ticket, which for this year was £468 for an annual Arlesey to Biggleswade, it's no surprise why I'd favour staying with the train over looking to drive. Being honest though, I actually walk nearly 4 miles each way from home to the station. If I factored in using the bus to get to the station to save the walk it would, at the minimum, almost double the cost of my commute (an annual PlusBus, the cheapest option for bus travel in this situation, is £375 currently). The main reason I stick with walking rather than using the bus is that the bus and train don't reliably time together, so I would land up waiting between 30 minutes and an hour at a station with no real amenities more often than not. There is also a direct bus service from my hometown to Biggleswade, but it's nearly triple the cost of my train season ticket and runs only a handful of times per day, with those times not matching up to my work hours.

Maybe when the time comes where I'm in a better-paying job and, hopefully, a new home I would consider driving. However as things stand right now, I feel it's best for me to stick with public transport.

 

[eMeS]

This thread has been a very interesting read and given me great insight into car ownership in general.
....
Comparing that to my train season ticket, which for this year was £468 for an annual Arlesey to Biggleswade, it's no surprise why I'd favour staying with the train over looking to drive. Being honest though, I actually walk nearly 4 miles each way from home to the station. ....

Maybe when the time comes where I'm in a better-paying job and, hopefully, a new home I would consider driving. However as things stand right now, I feel it's best for me to stick with public transport.

Keep up your healthy lifestyle! I don't have the will power, and am envious!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that everyone else in my current orienteering club (WSX) has a car. However, I have a few orienteering friends also from Hong Kong in another club (SLOW). They currently live in Greater London and none of them have a driving licence, and travel to races using trains and coaches.

If races are generally on Sundays with starts in the morning, the choices for the UK, other that for very local races where cycling or taxis might be viable, or where you can get a lift, are "live in London*" or "run a car".

* Or on a line with direct service to London in the South East somewhere, if the races are in or near London.

 

[Dai Corner]

If races are generally on Sundays with starts in the morning, the choices for the UK, other that for very local races where cycling or taxis might be viable, or where you can get a lift, are "live in London*" or "run a car".

* Or on a line with direct service to London in the South East somewhere, if the races are in or near London.

Indeed. I think the OP needs to decide whether to live as Honk Kong-like a lifestyle as possible or adopt a more British one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I think the OP needs to decide whether to live as Honk Kong-like a lifestyle as possible or adopt a more British one.

A slower one, I guess. London is the only place where attempting to live a Hong Kong style "fast, to the minute" lifestyle is even vaguely possible. I can see the OP with steam coming out of their ears as a checkout operator in say Manchester has a slow chat with their previous customer before serving them!

There's a third option to the above, of course, and how viable it is as against owning a car depends on how often one does races - stay in a hotel (or hostel, or camp) the night before. If public transport/cycling/walking works for everything else and you only do one race a month, say, this may prove cheapest. If you do one every Sunday then a car is going to make most sense.

 

[miklcct]

This thread has been a very interesting read and given me great insight into car ownership in general.

My personal circumstances are that I don't own a car and, outside of the odd lift from family members, I rely on using the train to get to work and a combination of the train and bus for leisure journeys. I'm only on an annual income of ~£15K, so I don't have that much disposable income to begin with, but before even considering which car and insurance to get, the first hurdle I have to overcome is finding a place to park it. The only place within a sensible distance from my home is a pay and display car park that charges £5 per day for parking (£1,825 per year). This car park used to be free to park in around a decade ago, but the business who owns it had enough of residents using it for long-term parking and got the P&D installed to dissuade people from using it for this purpose. So before beginning anything relating to the car, that's nearly £2,000 I'd have to pay out just to park near home. There's no other appropriate or safe parking, be it off-street or on-street, without looking at the other end of the town (but then that hits the insurance premium, which will already be fairly high for what would be a new driver with no NCD, even with being in my mid-30s).

Comparing that to my train season ticket, which for this year was £468 for an annual Arlesey to Biggleswade, it's no surprise why I'd favour staying with the train over looking to drive. Being honest though, I actually walk nearly 4 miles each way from home to the station. If I factored in using the bus to get to the station to save the walk it would, at the minimum, almost double the cost of my commute (an annual PlusBus, the cheapest option for bus travel in this situation, is £375 currently). The main reason I stick with walking rather than using the bus is that the bus and train don't reliably time together, so I would land up waiting between 30 minutes and an hour at a station with no real amenities more often than not. There is also a direct bus service from my hometown to Biggleswade, but it's nearly triple the cost of my train season ticket and runs only a handful of times per day, with those times not matching up to my work hours.

Maybe when the time comes where I'm in a better-paying job and, hopefully, a new home I would consider driving. However as things stand right now, I feel it's best for me to stick with public transport.

Have you got a bike?

 

[miklcct]

If races are generally on Sundays with starts in the morning, the choices for the UK, other that for very local races where cycling or taxis might be viable, or where you can get a lift, are "live in London*" or "run a car".

* Or on a line with direct service to London in the South East somewhere, if the races are in or near London.

A slower one, I guess. London is the only place where attempting to live a Hong Kong style "fast, to the minute" lifestyle is even vaguely possible. I can see the OP with steam coming out of their ears as a checkout operator in say Manchester has a slow chat with their previous customer before serving them!

There's a third option to the above, of course, and how viable it is as against owning a car depends on how often one does races - stay in a hotel (or hostel, or camp) the night before. If public transport/cycling/walking works for everything else and you only do one race a month, say, this may prove cheapest. If you do one every Sunday then a car is going to make most sense.

A lot of races start between 10 - 12 on Sundays. When I lived in Bournemouth there were a lot of occasions where I used the first train departing 0736 and got to the start line around 11 something. If the first service is as late as 0915 as in Harrogate to Leeds, I wouldn't be able to race at all.

Most races in the UK allows choosing a start time, unlike in Hong Kong where every race has centrally-allocated start times like the world / national championship.

When we did the national championship in Leeds last month, our start times were centrally allocated as it's the highest level race. It would not be possible to get there on time from London on a Sunday morning as the LNER starts late and no appropriate coaches available, so we booked accommodation. However, there was no accommodation left in Leeds and we had to find one in neighbouring towns, Castleford, and use the local train to Leeds which started at 0938. Our start time was 11 something so we had to use either the 0938 or 0943 to get there.

If I had to book accommodation for every race I would have been put off as it would be so expensive on top of the race fee and travel, doubling the cost every race. Most regional races cost about £13 to register, and if I can get cheap travel the cost of racing is really low.