How do TOCs identify fraudulent railcards?

[ruraltravel222]

Hello all,

I'm struck by the large number of people on here who have been caught using fraudulent railcards.

My question is, are these usually discovered by train staff? - i.e. seeing an obviously photoshopped image, or do TOCs liaise with whoever administers the railcards?

For instance, I have seen recently that some people use false details - fake driving licence numbers to obtain railcards - and it makes me wonder how these people could ever be caught.

 

[Gloster]

I would thought that there are two main types of fraudulent railcards: genuine railcards (ones that are valid and paid for) that have been obtained by using false details and ones that have been manipulated to extend their validity. The first would seem to be difficult to pick up if the applicant is thorough with their deception (although the amount of cross-checking between records is probably increasing), but the second would probably show up pretty quickly during or as a result of an inspection.

 

[Wolfie]

This thread rather concerns me - no offence @ruraltravel222 - it could all too easily if people aren't careful become a "how to" guide for the fraudsters.

 

[30907]

A belated welcome to the forum.

I've been active on here for a decade, and IMO fake railcards are fairly rare (whereas people wrongly claiming discount in various ways are common).

Digital railcards can be photoshopped, but AIUI the underlying detail still scans.

I don't recall fake personal details being used very much.

 

[Deafdoggie]

What am I missing? Why does it matter if someone buys a railcard using false details? I don't recall ever being asked for photo ID when buying a railcard. As long as the photo is the person using the railcard what does it matter?

 

[Wallsendmag]

What am I missing? Why does it matter if someone buys a railcard using false details? I don't recall ever being asked for photo ID when buying a railcard. As long as the photo is the person using the railcard what does it matter?

So someone in their 40s using a 16-17 Saver is fine ?

 

[Deafdoggie]

So someone in their 40s using a 16-17 Saver is fine ?

Ah! That makes more sense, I see now. Thank you. Although surely even the most youthful 40 year old won't pass even a casual glance as being 16-17, thus highlighting it's a fake railcard?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Ah! That makes more sense, I see now. Thank you. Although surely even the most youthful 40 year old won't pass even a casual glance as being 16-17, thus highlighting it's a fake railcard?

But it wouldn't be a fake Railcard would it? If you apply with someone elses details it's just fraud.

 

[SWT_USER]

But it wouldn't be a fake Railcard would it? If you apply with someone elses details it's just fraud.

No need for anyone elses details - they could just be completely made up.

I suspect genuine railcards obtained fraudulently are almost impossible to detect - there will be no red flags raised when they are scanned and there is much easier low hanging fruit for TOC's to go after.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Ah! That makes more sense, I see now. Thank you. Although surely even the most youthful 40 year old won't pass even a casual glance as being 16-17, thus highlighting it's a fake railcard?

A 40 year old or even older may be entitled to hold a 16-25 railcard, without the correct checks on id and entitlement how old they look in that case could be irrelevant as well

 

[Gloster]

The 16-25 Railcard can be used by mature students of any age, as long as they are studying full-time. I had a Young Persons Railcard, as it was then called, up to the age of 32 as I was a full-time student.

Without giving away details, I would have thought that the time, effort and cost to obtain the documentation required for a Railcard is probably so great as to not be worth it in all but a handful of cases.

 

[SWT_USER]

The 16-25 Railcard can be used by mature students of any age, as long as they are studying full-time. I had a Young Persons Railcard, as it was then called, up to the age of 32 as I was a full-time student.

Without giving away details, I would have thought that the time, effort and cost to obtain the documentation required for a Railcard is probably so great as to not be worth it in all but a handful of cases.

RE your second paragraph - if only that were true. I could buy a 16-25 or 26-30 Railcard in minutes online despite being entitled to neither.

 

[Jan Mayen]

When I worked in a ticket office, a friend asked me to get them a Young Person Railcard (they were about 30 at the time and weren't a student). I said no.

However, the chances of being caught would have been minimal.

 

[1D54]

A 55 year old getting a mate who is 60+ to get him a Senior Railcard. All too easy and all railcards should have a photograph of holder on them.

 

[Foxhunter]

A 55 year old getting a mate who is 60+ to get him a Senior Railcard. All too easy and all railcards should have a photograph of holder on them.

I happen to have bought a Senior Railcard within the last week. A condition of the online application was that I provide a reference to either a Passport or Driving License. It will not escape for forum's notice that these documents have both a verified age and photograph (I have no idea to what extend this may be shared with 'the railway').

So a 55 year old isn't going to be able to get a card in their own name. And no, I have no idea what process kicks into gear if you don't have a Passport or Driving License.

 

[Ediswan]

I happen to have bought a Senior Railcard within the last week. A condition of the online application was that I provide a reference to either a Passport or Driving License. It will not escape for forum's notice that these documents have both a verified age and photograph (I have no idea to what extend this may be shared with 'the railway').

This was discussed a while back. I recall the conclusion was that while there may be checks that the long passport number is plausible (format, check characters), there was no check that the details were genuine.

 

[skyhigh]

A condition of the online application was that I provide a reference to either a Passport or Driving License. It will not escape for forum's notice that these documents have both a verified age and photograph (I have no idea to what extend this may be shared with 'the railway').

So a 55 year old isn't going to be able to get a card in their own name.

The form doesn't validate that the number entered is genuine, and a quick look at a driving licence will show you that your date of birth is encoded in the number. Hence that can easily be 'adjusted' and you will be issued a genuine Railcard even though you're not entitled to it. RDG have been made aware of this exploit but they don't seem to care enough to do anything about it.

 

[MrJeeves]

The 16-25 Railcard can be used by mature students of any age, as long as they are studying full-time. I had a Young Persons Railcard, as it was then called, up to the age of 32 as I was a full-time student.

Additionally, Travel Agents which pass RDG's online exam also get a free 16-25 Railcard regardless of age (or the choice of various other Railcards).

https://www.atoctravelagents.org/training/railcard-offer

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah! That makes more sense, I see now. Thank you. Although surely even the most youthful 40 year old won't pass even a casual glance as being 16-17, thus highlighting it's a fake railcard?

Now imagine it's an 18 year old.

 

[PaulJ]

I do believe that digital railcards are supposed to be checked onboard by the passenger opening their app, as opposed to showing a screenshot.

 

[skyhigh]

I do believe that digital railcards are supposed to be checked onboard by the passenger opening their app, as opposed to showing a screenshot.

Yes, but that does nothing for those who fraudulently obtain genuine Railcards, which will appear in the app.

 

[Fermiboson]

Virtually all fake railcard cases on this forum involve editing the expiry date, usually on a screenshot of an electronic railcard, which as mentioned above can be easily checked by scanning. That said, many ticket checks also don’t involve scanning the railcard at this point so how many get away with this, I don’t know.

Providing a fake passport number, etc. is solidly in the territory of fraud and I would expect that your average fare evader realises this and does not wish to take the risk for the savings most people are able to get on a railcard.

Ultimately there are many ways to defraud the railway in an increasingly obscure manner but the fundamental obstacle remains the same: you only need to be caught once.

 

[ruraltravel222]

Virtually all fake railcard cases on this forum involve editing the expiry date, usually on a screenshot of an electronic railcard, which as mentioned above can be easily checked by scanning. That said, many ticket checks also don’t involve scanning the railcard at this point so how many get away with this, I don’t know.

Providing a fake passport number, etc. is solidly in the territory of fraud and I would expect that your average fare evader realises this and does not wish to take the risk for the savings most people are able to get on a railcard.

Ultimately there are many ways to defraud the railway in an increasingly obscure manner but the fundamental obstacle remains the same: you only need to be caught once.

I would expect that quite a number of people use the false passport/driving licence details to obtain a railcard.

The 'loophole', though of course it is fraud, has been widely publicised in recent years and with the cost of living, high ticket prices and relative lack of detection, I suspect it may be much more common than you might think.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

In the last year or so I’ve come across at least 10 fake railcards and they have all been edited screenshots

I’m not going to divulge any images or descriptions but some are absolutely terrible, others very good copies but with a little investigation into them, easily identified using a visual check or scanning with an additional app we have. This once revealed a network railcard that had been totally changed to a 26-30 railcard!

Often the size of the picture, slightly different font, cut and paste lines or badly cropped screenshots are the biggest give away, along with the hologram not moving, but ultimately I don’t accept any screenshots of railcards.

There seems to be a lot of people holding a screenshot of a genuine card too, when they have bought it through trip. com or trainpal as it’s a nightmare to scale through the spam, adverts and then redownload their card (separate thread on this issue I know) so some screenshots appear false but are the customer trying to save time.

From a traincrew point of view I think we can only go by what’s presented to us and if a customer has managed to obtain a genuine card illegitimately there is little we can do, the retailers need to be more stringent when selling in this case

 

[ComUtoR]

Hello all,

I'm struck by the large number of people on here who have been caught using fraudulent railcards.

My question is, are these usually discovered by train staff? - i.e. seeing an obviously photoshopped image, or do TOCs liaise with whoever administers the railcards?

For instance, I have seen recently that some people use false details - fake driving licence numbers to obtain railcards - and it makes me wonder how these people could ever be caught.

Criminals aren't exactly know for their intelligence.

 

[The exile]

Criminals aren't exactly know for their intelligence.

Not the ones we know about, anyway

 

[AdamWW]

Not the ones we know about, anyway

Quite. Bit of a selection effect there I think.

 

[AlterEgo]

Criminals aren't exactly know for their intelligence.

Survivorship bias.

 

[ComUtoR]

Survivorship bias.

That's a new one on me. Care to explain ?

 

[methecooldude]

In the last year or so I’ve come across at least 10 fake railcards and they have all been edited screenshots

I’m not going to divulge any images or descriptions but some are absolutely terrible, others very good copies but with a little investigation into them, easily identified using a visual check or scanning with an additional app we have. This once revealed a network railcard that had been totally changed to a 26-30 railcard!

Often the size of the picture, slightly different font, cut and paste lines or badly cropped screenshots are the biggest give away, along with the hologram not moving, but ultimately I don’t accept any screenshots of railcards.

There seems to be a lot of people holding a screenshot of a genuine card too, when they have bought it through trip. com or trainpal as it’s a nightmare to scale through the spam, adverts and then redownload their card (separate thread on this issue I know) so some screenshots appear false but are the customer trying to save time.

From a traincrew point of view I think we can only go by what’s presented to us and if a customer has managed to obtain a genuine card illegitimately there is little we can do, the retailers need to be more stringent when selling in this case

Agree with all of this

That being said I know Trip and TrainPal can be a nuisance if an Internet connection is not available, which for my routes is quite often. Yes, there is WiFi on the train, but lets not go down that road...

Therefore I do this - If a screenshot is presented, I will scan it. If ALL the data matches up with the screenshot and the photo is a likeness of the holder, that's fine by me. But I've caught my fair share as well.