How do you enforce pick up and set down only?

[Class800]

It's often done, and it works. "Will the person in the blue coat by the escalator smoking please stop?" for instance.

If an individual is obviously and knowingly breaking the rules, it's right to highlight that they need to stop.

From the Lumo thread:

Must differ between employment sectors, because in higher education if I did anything like that it would be a summary dismissal or at best a disciplinary hearing. If a student was smoking in my class, I could say "Please can I remind all students that you are not supposed to smoke in class", but if I said "Can the student in the blue jumper please stop smoking" - I'd likely be sacked for misconduct.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must differ between employment sectors, because in higher education if I did anything like that it would be a summary dismissal or at best a disciplinary hearing. If a student was smoking in my class, I could say "Please can I remind all students that you are not supposed to smoke in class", but if I said "Can the student in the blue jumper please stop smoking" - I'd likely be sacked for misconduct.

Absolutely bizarre. You should definitely be allowed to do that. A Police Officer wouldn't stand there shouting "will those stealing from this store please return the goods immediately", they would chase the identified offender and apprehend them, and everyone in the store would see it.

 

[DarloRich]

Highlighting an individual is the height of rudeness - maybe says something about the manners of anyone who would condone this really.

I would take pleasure in doing it. Why should one person think that they can do what they like while others play by the rules? Why should they be treated better than anyone else?

Thinking the rules don't apply to all of us is the height of rudeness in my book.

but if I said "Can the student in the blue jumper please stop smoking" - I'd likely be sacked for misconduct.

and the tribunal would hand over the cheque in milliseconds.

 

[Class800]

and the tribunal would hand over the cheque in milliseconds.

Not necessarily. There's a very complex tribunal case going on in my sector about someone who was apparently too loud and assertive in dealings with errant PhD students and was sacked for gross misconduct. It's now in various protracted appeals, and maybe off to court. With sex and race cards being thrown in from both sides. I wouldn't take any chances. Going OT though

 

[DarloRich]

Not necessarily. There's a very complex tribunal case going on in my sector about someone who was apparently too loud and assertive in dealings with errant PhD students and was sacked for gross misconduct. It's now in various protracted appeals, and maybe off to court. With sex and race cards being thrown in from both sides. I wouldn't take any chances. Going OT though

That sound some what different to would the person in the blue top stop smoking.

I might agree if you launched into a foul mouthed tirade about the parentage of said blue top wearer, thier intellectual capacity and their sexual proclivities followed by a helpful suggestion of where you were going to shove the cigarette if they didn't cease and desist !

OT so i both agree and disagree

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sound some what different to would the person in the blue top stop smoking.

I might agree if you launched into a foul mouthed tirade about the parentage of said blue top wearer, thier intellectual capacity and their sexual proclivities followed by a helpful suggestion of where you were going to shove the cigarette if they didn't cease and desist !

OT so i both agree and disagree

Indeed. The original post involved a member of traincrew announcing something like "Will the person in the red jacket who just boarded this train despite it being shown as set down only please leave immediately, or you will be charged a penalty fare". The latter was inaccurate, but there was nothing impolite or overbearing about it, indeed I'm pretty sure it included "please".

The academic in the lecture theatre would just need to point at the person then any no-smoking signage and say - "excuse me, you in the blue jacket, will you please put that cigarette out or leave immediately - you know smoking is not allowed in here". If they then didn't, time to call security.

 

[DelW]

Thinking the rules don't apply to all of us is the height of rudeness in my book.

Unfortunately it's a mindset that goes throughout our government, and right to the top .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately it's a mindset that goes throughout our government, and right to the top .

Reminds me of when the chief of Merseytravel got a Penalty Fare on Merseyrail, which made the Echo's front page, as I recall. If you're making the rules, you absolutely need to stick to them, and it should absolutely be called out very publically if you don't!

 

[Falcon1200]

There is nothing in the agreement which suggests they are barred from actually carrying passengers who choose to get on in spite of the non-advertised nature of the stop.

But would Lumo not be expected to take reasonable steps to prevent non-authorised use of their services ?

It would be interesting to know what the departure screens at Stevenage showed for the Lumo train (don't think there has been a response to that question yet ?), and whether any other passengers attempted to board the train there.

 

[Adam Williams]

Must differ between employment sectors, because in higher education if I did anything like that it would be a summary dismissal or at best a disciplinary hearing. If a student was smoking in my class, I could say "Please can I remind all students that you are not supposed to smoke in class", but if I said "Can the student in the blue jumper please stop smoking" - I'd likely be sacked for misconduct.

I don't believe that, and I suspect your UCU rep would be very interested in something as innocuous as a comment like that somehow resulting in a disciplinary hearing or even dismissal (!)

 

[Watershed]

So the intent of the Track Access Agreement was that Lumo should carry any Stevenage–London passenger who wants to use their service, without recompense?

That's an interesting argument, I'll give you that.

There is no direct connection between an operator receiving revenue and being required (or allowed) to carry passengers. Permitted routes frequently allow travel on TOCs which won't get any of your money.

I think the intent is clearly that they won't carry any passengers. But it doesn't appear to legally prohibit them from doing so, nor does it prohibit a passenger from boarding a Lumo service (both because of its wording and the fact that passengers aren't party to the TAA).

But would Lumo not be expected to take reasonable steps to prevent non-authorised use of their services ?

It would be interesting to know what the departure screens at Stevenage showed for the Lumo train (don't think there has been a response to that question yet ?), and whether any other passengers attempted to board the train there.

Perhaps, but there are limited options available to them.

 

[guilbert]

I've not had cause to hang around at Stevenage for a few years, but when I last did I noticed the Hull Trains set down only service used the furthest stop marker which meant the whole train was away from the entrance stairs where people tend to hang around for the train when it's quiet, presumably to discourage people getting on.

Frankly I don't really see what the issue is - there are only a handful of set-down only services call there, all at quiet times and there are regular Thameslink services so it's not like many people are going to specifically try to get a Hull Trains / Lumo service - if the odd person gets on who isn't really meant to it seems like a good opportunity to encourage them to make a longer journey with them in the future rather than issuing a penalty fare.

 

[Kite159]

I've not had cause to hang around at Stevenage for a few years, but when I last did I noticed the Hull Trains set down only service used the furthest stop marker which meant the whole train was away from the entrance stairs where people tend to hang around for the train when it's quiet, presumably to discourage people getting on.

Frankly I don't really see what the issue is - there are only a handful of set-down only services call there, all at quiet times and there are regular Thameslink services so it's not like many people are going to specifically try to get a Hull Trains / Lumo service - if the odd person gets on who isn't really meant to it seems like a good opportunity to encourage them to make a longer journey with them in the future rather than issuing a penalty fare.

These days 5 coach units stop quite far down the platform at Stevenage even if it's a open call (ie a 5 coach 800 from Lincoln).
It does catch a few out as the rear is past the stairs

Might even stop in the same place regardless if it's a 5, 9, 10 or Mk4 set.

 

[Horizon22]

I've not had cause to hang around at Stevenage for a few years, but when I last did I noticed the Hull Trains set down only service used the furthest stop marker which meant the whole train was away from the entrance stairs where people tend to hang around for the train when it's quiet, presumably to discourage people getting on.

Frankly I don't really see what the issue is - there are only a handful of set-down only services call there, all at quiet times and there are regular Thameslink services so it's not like many people are going to specifically try to get a Hull Trains / Lumo service - if the odd person gets on who isn't really meant to it seems like a good opportunity to encourage them to make a longer journey with them in the future rather than issuing a penalty fare.

Stopping positions are very complex and due to a whole host of factors including signal sighting, station lighting, curvature, crew access etc. and are subject to regular reviews. They do take into account entrances/exits to the platform, but is by no means the only reasoning, so can't be guaranteed that's why they stop further down the platform.

 

[Parallel]

Didn't Avanti charge someone for a ticket from Crewe to London when they boarded at Watford before, based on it being the last stop that boarding would've been allowed? I haven't checked but that'd probably be even worse if Lumo did that from Newcastle! Not that their company would benefit much from the revenue if they did, from operating so few trains.

I wonder what would've happened if someone with an All Line Rover ticket would've boarded at Watford Junction for London Euston.

In all seriousness, pick-up only and set-down only stops are there to manage crowding, stop short distance journeys at busier ends of longer routes and the TOCs won't get any share of the revenue for that part of the route, e.g. Avanti for Watford to London or Lumo for Stevenage to London, so I do understand why they are quite strict on boarding.

 

[Edsmith]

Must differ between employment sectors, because in higher education if I did anything like that it would be a summary dismissal or at best a disciplinary hearing. If a student was smoking in my class, I could say "Please can I remind all students that you are not supposed to smoke in class", but if I said "Can the student in the blue jumper please stop smoking" - I'd likely be sacked for misconduct.

I witnessed an incident recently where somebody was smoking on the platform and there was just a polite reminder over the tannoy that it's a no smoking area and no attempt to embarrass the smoker who probably hadn't realised.

I've not had cause to hang around at Stevenage for a few years, but when I last did I noticed the Hull Trains set down only service used the furthest stop marker which meant the whole train was away from the entrance stairs where people tend to hang around for the train when it's quiet, presumably to discourage people getting on.

Frankly I don't really see what the issue is - there are only a handful of set-down only services call there, all at quiet times and there are regular Thameslink services so it's not like many people are going to specifically try to get a Hull Trains / Lumo service - if the odd person gets on who isn't really meant to it seems like a good opportunity to encourage them to make a longer journey with them in the future rather than issuing a penalty fare.

No I don't see what the problem is either, just one southbound Lumo train calls at Stevenage in the evening and what does it matter if someone gets on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all seriousness, pick-up only and set-down only stops are there to manage crowding, stop short distance journeys at busier ends of longer routes and the TOCs won't get any share of the revenue for that part of the route, e.g. Avanti for Watford to London or Lumo for Stevenage to London, so I do understand why they are quite strict on boarding.

It's of most consequence at the start of the journey by causing unnecessary musical chairs, though at the end it's also annoying if people cram on - not being able to stand to prepare luggage etc is quite annoying and damages the quality of an InterCity service. When there are plenty of other trains, this is a sensible move.

 

[DorkingMain]

And I suspect on some of the late night trains to somewhere like Dover, the guard will walk through the train asking passengers where they are going, so the train can skip some of the smaller stations if there is nobody on board for those stations. If such a thing is allowed.

Did this once when I was a guard, empty train, buzzed my driver "Don't bother stopping, nobody on board".

Got to the destination about 10 mins early to be barked at by control, and told that they we should have stopped at each station anyway because of timing points(?) and threatened with disciplinary action that never materialised...

 

[centro-323]

It would be interesting to know what the departure screens at Stevenage showed for the Lumo train (don't think there has been a response to that question yet ?)

Up until around late February or early March, the info for the following LNER departure was shown (not at all helpful as it was only a few mins behind), but since then it has the message about the service being set down only and not to board it

 

[Bikeman78]

It's of most consequence at the start of the journey by causing unnecessary musical chairs, though at the end it's also annoying if people cram on - not being able to stand to prepare luggage etc is quite annoying and damages the quality of an InterCity service. When there are plenty of other trains, this is a sensible move.

I must say I've found this discussion fascinating. Until 2020, peak trains from Reading were rammed as you describe. I've done a few runs on Dutch IC trains sitting on the stairs of a 10 car double decker EMU.

Regarding Watford Junction, I got on a few loco hauled Virgin trains back in the day. There were plenty of seats so it wasn't a problem.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Regarding Watford Junction, I got on a few loco hauled Virgin trains back in the day. There were plenty of seats so it wasn't a problem.

Don't admit to that unless you want Bletchleyite's finger wagged in your face

 

[railfan100]

Maybe the TOC could equip crew with rubber bullets and a suitably supplied shooting device. Offenders should be shot onsite and have to pay a financial penalty for each rubber bullet that hits the target? Seems as sensible if not better than the current policy in this area.

 

[miklcct]

I believe that the pick-up restriction at Clapham Junction towards the country is not enforced. The call isn't shown on the boards but the guard announces it as if it is a normal station stop, including the corresponding short platform announcement (front 8 coaches for a 10-coach 444).