How likely for a goods shed to survive 14 years

[Andy873]

How likely do you think a railway goods shed could survive for fourteen years?

I've covered most of my old branch line's details (and probably bored a lot of people in the process!) but there is still one mystery that's puzzled me for a long time now - the demolition date of Padiham's goods yard shed.

Despite the station itself at Padiham being demolished August 1967, the goods yard didn't close until June 1968. The shed itself was unusual in the fact it was a large wooden structure. It had two road loading bays and two internal cranes.

One photo dated August 1982 shows a large factory covering the former goods yard and part of the former station, however I've found out this factory was a large snooker factory and was officially opened by the then minister of sport June 1984. The factory was 100,000 sq ft in size. The 1984 date of opening I know to be correct.

Presuming (something I hate doing) that this factory took "some time" to build, possibly starting in 1983 that gives me a gap (give or take a few months) of 14 years from goods yard closure to factory build.

Questions please:
How likely do you think it is that the goods shed actually survived for 14 years?
Is it possible that some of the coal merchants might have continued to operate from the closed goods yard? I know this happened at Simonstone just 1 mile away.

 

[Morayshire]

Would have thought chances of survival would be improved if the building was reused by someone following closure.

Coal merchants probably would have kept using the yard for a while. Arbroath's certainly did until recently (yard was cleared to make way for a Network Rail compound).

 

[simonw]

How likely do you think a railway goods shed could survive for fourteen years?

I've covered most of my old branch line's details (and probably bored a lot of people in the process!) but there is still one mystery that's puzzled me for a long time now - the demolition date of Padiham's goods yard shed.

Despite the station itself at Padiham being demolished August 1967, the goods yard didn't close until June 1968. The shed itself was unusual in the fact it was a large wooden structure. It had two road loading bays and two internal cranes.

One photo dated August 1982 shows a large factory covering the former goods yard and part of the former station, however I've found out this factory was a large snooker factory and was officially opened by the then minister of sport June 1984. The factory was 100,000 sq ft in size. The 1984 date of opening I know to be correct.

Presuming (something I hate doing) that this factory took "some time" to build, possibly starting in 1983 that gives me a gap (give or take a few months) of 14 years from goods yard closure to factory build.

Questions please:
How likely do you think it is that the goods shed actually survived for 14 years?
Is it possible that some of the coal merchants might have continued to operate from the closed goods yard? I know this happened at Simonstone just 1 mile away.

Watlington goods shed survived at least 40 years

Disused Stations: Watlington Station

Although I think it may have collapsed after that picture was taken.

Lots of coal merchants remained at stations long after the railway had gone. It wouldn't really be worth their while relocating unless forced to.

 

[Andy873]

Coal merchants probably would have kept using the yard for a while. Arbroath's certainly did until recently (yard was cleared to make way for a Network Rail compound).

Watlington goods shed survived at least 40 years

Great points being made here, thanks guys.

I would have thought that allowing the coal merchants to continue to use the yard would have brought in some income for BR instead of it being a dead weight. The other point would be that the coal customers of the town would be used to going there.

After the yard closed to deliveries, the coal was diverted to Burnley which is not far away, yes it's more work for the merchants but they would need somewhere to operate from in the town. Not all coal merchants had their own yard.

Perhaps when we say a goods yard closed, we should really say it simply wasn't going to get any more deliveries?

 

[30907]

Perhaps when we say a goods yard closed, we should really say it simply wasn't going to get any more deliveries?

Yes, strictly speaking. Coal merchants in particular needed a base, and as long as the goods yard wasn't needed as a commuter car park, sold for development etc they would stay until their own business dwindled.

In fact Haworth KWVR still has a coal merchant on site, 60 years after the freight service was withdrawn. There are almost certainly others.

 

[stuu]

The buildings at Pont Llanio (Ceredigion) have stood abandoned since 1971. I expect there are other railway buildings that have been abandoned even longer and still exist

 

[Roger1973]

Agree with others - I remember a few coal merchants still working from what had been the goods / coal yard at SE London suburban stations in to the 80s at least - at Lee, for example, they used the former down side station building / booking office as their office. Don't think there was a 'goods shed' as such though. The site has since been redeveloped for housing.

Pretty sure there are some goods sheds still standing in non railway use.

Up until the intermittent property booms in the 1980s and on, there were disused industrial / railway buildings just standing empty. Even in some parts of late 80s London (the bits that hadn't yet become trendy or 'Docklands' at least) it was possible to find buildings like that.

In terms of railways, I have got some photos of the disused goods shed at Gravesend West Street (think they would have been taken through an open doorway) which I must have visited with my late father, and while we were probably technically trespassing, our efforts would not have extended to causing any damage to gain entry, or to climbing over fences etc. This would have been some time mid 1980s, and it closed for business in 1968.

 

[Gloster]

BR did not have the resources or money to demolish everything immediately and there would often be the possibility that they might just be able to rent the goods shed out. So the shed would remain disused until the land was sold, the building became dangerous or BR got around to clearing the site. As mentioned above, buildings could and did survive for years, particularly in rural areas where land was not at a premium. I don’t know about Padiham, but it is quite possible that the shed survived until BR sold the site, or it was demolished by BR slightly earlier in order to put a cleared site on the market or it went earlier because it had become dangerous: timber buildings tended to deteriorate quicker than others.

It was quite common for coal merchants to continue to use closed goods yards as their depot. It was much easier for a small business to continue to operate out of the same place, where everybody knew them and where their office was than to move. Moving would involve finding a new location, the disruption of the actual move and the probability that they wouldn’t find as good a location as the station at the same price. They would just continue to pay BR a rent as before and keep on trading.

A number of stations continued to receive goods by road even after they had lost all rail connections, with the goods being delivered by BR. However, this was often only coal traffic and tended not to last for many years.

 

[randyrippley]

Morecambe Euston Rd closed to goods services 1972 but the shed and yard are still in use as a builders merchants

 

[Irascible]

There's a few down here still around ( mostly, as noted above, because of reuse ). Exeter St Davids only recently lost one, and I don't think it was used since I've been alive.

 

[Titfield]

Yes, strictly speaking. Coal merchants in particular needed a base, and as long as the goods yard wasn't needed as a commuter car park, sold for development etc they would stay until their own business dwindled.

In fact Haworth KWVR still has a coal merchant on site, 60 years after the freight service was withdrawn. There are almost certainly others.

Corfe Castle still has a coal merchant but he now mainly sells wood for wood burners etc.

 

[weepingwillowb]

Sedbergh closed to goods in 1964 (passengers in 1954); the goods shed is still in use.

​

 

[FGW_DID]

The former goods shed at the original Witney Railway Station (closed circa 1970) still stands today. Uses since the closure of the railway include as a nightclub, appropriately called “The Sidings” which also included an ex Mk1 coach!


Photos from:
1) Martin Loader’s excellent Fairford Branch website [credited to Simon Glidewell]
2) Google Street view 2023.

 

[Andy873]

Great points being made here and some lovely photos, thanks all!

On my article regarding Padiham railway station the following first photo just about shows the western end of the wooden goods shed. The photo was taken between April and August 1967, the goods shed is on the right of the picture and doesn't look too bad at that time:

Demolition of Padiham Station

It looks almost certain that the yard continued to be used by some (at least) of the coal merchants after the yard closed to railway deliveries in June 1968. Old telephone directories from the 1970's and early '80s would most likely confirm that, but it doesn't solve the question of the goods shed itself.

If we look at this from BR's perspective, what do we have? a reasonably large piece of land with fewer and fewer merchants over time renting space here. You have a large 150 x 40 foot wooden shed which has seen better days, of which BR might be liable for, and come the early 1980's this land's value might have suddenly doubled over the last few years.

If I remember correctly, during the 1980's a large amount of disused railway land was sold off for redevelopment of houses and industrial use, and I think Padiham goods yard was a typical example of that.

Sadly for me, the snooker company that built the factory on the former goods yard site has since gone to the wall otherwise I would have contacted them for more details.

Silly question time (something I'm good at), would BR be liable for water rates regarding the goods shed or other rates? if so, that would be another reason to pull it down or at least remove the roof....

 

[Gwr12345]

Winston station has it's goods shed still in use, for John Dickenson, a trucking company I believe.

 

[randyrippley]

Andy
Did the site have mains water? I thought we'd found in an earlier thread that it had it's own source and extraction licence? That would complicate things

 

[Andy873]

Andy
Did the site have mains water? I thought we'd found in an earlier thread that it had it's own source and extraction licence? That would complicate things

Good question - to be honest I can't remember but I think we were talking about Great Harwood not Padiham but I could be wrong!

The question of water rates comes from a vague recollection that even though a building might not have a mains water supply, you have to pay it if the rain water falls off the roof, down a spout and into a drain.

 

[Llanigraham]

Just thinking of some I know.
Kington, Herefordshire, goods shed is still in use as a car repair place.
Rhayader goods shed is used by the local council.
Caersws goods shed is offices.

All those closed well over 14 years ago.

 

[billh]

The LNWR goods warehouse at Dukinfield, Cheshire closed to railway use before 1968. It has been occupied by a succession of demolition(!) and land reclamation contractors since then. Similarly the warehouse at Millbrook near Stalybridge has lain derelict for fifty years or so.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks for that, it's clear quite a few former goods sheds have thankfully survived.

I finally found the photo, here you can see the railway line cuts Padiham in two as it runs down the centre of the town. If you follow the line you will see it bends to the left, as soon as the curve stops you come to the large snooker factory which occupied the former goods yard.

Padiham

The point being the date is given as 1982, an official invite to the official opening of the factory was dated June 1984. I have asked for a check on the 1982 photo date!

If the 1982 date is correct then that means the goods shed (if it was still extant) would have gone say 1981 ish.

 

[randyrippley]

How likely do you think a railway goods shed could survive for fourteen years?

I've covered most of my old branch line's details (and probably bored a lot of people in the process!) but there is still one mystery that's puzzled me for a long time now - the demolition date of Padiham's goods yard shed.

Despite the station itself at Padiham being demolished August 1967, the goods yard didn't close until June 1968. The shed itself was unusual in the fact it was a large wooden structure. It had two road loading bays and two internal cranes.

One photo dated August 1982 shows a large factory covering the former goods yard and part of the former station, however I've found out this factory was a large snooker factory and was officially opened by the then minister of sport June 1984. The factory was 100,000 sq ft in size. The 1984 date of opening I know to be correct.

Presuming (something I hate doing) that this factory took "some time" to build, possibly starting in 1983 that gives me a gap (give or take a few months) of 14 years from goods yard closure to factory build.

Questions please:
How likely do you think it is that the goods shed actually survived for 14 years?
Is it possible that some of the coal merchants might have continued to operate from the closed goods yard? I know this happened at Simonstone just 1 mile away.

Andy
Presumably Riley's applied for planning permission to build the factory / Riley House?
If you can find those documents in the Burnley Council records it may tell you what buildings - if any - remained on site and needed demolishing

 

[Andy873]

Andy
Presumably Riley's applied for planning permission to build the factory / Riley House?
If you can find those documents in the Burnley Council records it may tell you what buildings - if any - remained on site and needed demolishing

That's a great point thanks!

I would have thought you would want to have planning permission approved before you purchase the land. If the plans mention the demolition of building(s) then that brings me very close to a potential goods shed demolition date.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Silly question time (something I'm good at), would BR be liable for water rates regarding the goods shed or other rates? if so, that would be another reason to pull it down or at least remove the roof....

When I was involve on the W.R. water charges were all metered (one location in Cardiff was closed and, oddly, the water bills kept coming in - an entrepreneurial car wash nearby ) so that wouldn't be an issue.

Rates could be issue, though; railway operational land was exempt from rates - but there were arguments about what was covered by that definition (e'g' railway offices distant from the railway). I was once actually working in such an office when a representative of the local council turned up to check!

Generally, the B.R. Property Board very assiduously identified land for disposal (the income from property sales was where, for instance, most of the money to buy H.S.T.s came from). The P.B. would send plans to the Marketing Departments to give approval but it was very difficult to decline even if there was a possibility of customer being interested in a private siding on the site. Short term gain rather than long term strategy, always been the case.

As an aside, if you travel on West Coast; on the Down, after running alongside the M1 behind Watford Gap services, the train leans to the the left and, on the right you pass Weedon goods shed, as far as I know never used since closure many years ago but still (just) standing.

 

[WesternLancer]

That's a great point thanks!

I would have thought you would want to have planning permission approved before you purchase the land. If the plans mention the demolition of building(s) then that brings me very close to a potential goods shed demolition date.

Hi there - ref planning permission - worth bearing in mind that sites can often be sold with 'Outline Planning Permission' in place which would mean the goods yard site might be listed for sale as acceptable for building of certain factory (for example) type use. The buyer can then go to the council and ask them informally if they buy the site, clear it, build a factory in such and such a style / size, are they likely to receive Full Planning Permission. This is to help investors decide if they can go ahead with ideas without wasting time and money on applications that may get rejected in the formal process.

IIRC unless it is a listed building or within a designated Conservation Area you do not need planning permission to demolish a building in most circs. However, if you were building a new one the application might include the measures to make the site ready ie demolish an existing structure.

My council website has (or had) historical planning details for applications going back to at least the 1970s scanned in and all on line. If that is the same for this area it might be quite easy to find the plans - usually helps if you know the official street name / address or part of the address of the site (ie sites that can potentially be addresses by more than one street can need several searches - eg if on a corner plot) to find.

 

[randyrippley]

The address appears to be Riley House, Station Road
- unless the factory and offices were in separate buildings

 

[weepingwillowb]

I didn't notice that you were asking about a wooden goods shed at Padiham. Here's a surviving wooden goods shed, at Waterhouses, Staffordshire, on the North Staffordshire Railway and the Leek and Manifold Light Railway. The two lines ran either side of the goods shed. The station closed in 1943.

​

 

[Gloster]

An official invitation to the opening of the new factory on 22 June 1984 gives the RSVP address as Riley House, Station Road. In the late 1990s they moved to what sounds like a smaller industrial unit in Burnley, but went out of business in 2002, although the name may have been sold on.

Source: snookerheritage website.

 

[WesternLancer]

The address appears to be Riley House, Station Road
- unless the factory and offices were in separate buildings

So this might be the link you need to start a search - It's not the most interactive of sites but with local knowledge it might not be too difficult to find the relevant application from the map you seem to need to study :

Historic Planning Records - burnley.gov.uk

The following link will provide access to basic planning information relating to applications made between 1974 and 1999. Historic Planning Records. Guide Open the Map in the drawings folder called Index. Note the reference number of the square area you are interested in. For example, central...

burnley.gov.uk

Historic Planning Records​

The following link will provide access to basic planning information relating to applications made between 1974 and 1999.

 

[Andy873]

Hi there - ref planning permission - worth bearing in mind that sites can often be sold with 'Outline Planning Permission' in place which would mean the goods yard site might be listed for sale as acceptable for building of certain factory (for example) type use. The buyer can then go to the council and ask them informally if they buy the site, clear it, build a factory in such and such a style / size, are they likely to receive Full Planning Permission. This is to help investors decide if they can go ahead with ideas without wasting time and money on applications that may get rejected in the formal process.

A very good point made here!

I didn't notice that you were asking about a wooden goods shed at Padiham. Here's a surviving wooden goods shed, at Waterhouses, Staffordshire, on the North Staffordshire Railway and the Leek and Manifold Light Railway. The two lines ran either side of the goods shed. The station closed in 1943.

Yes, Padiham's goods shed was wooden. looks like a few of them have survived all those years which is nice to see. Ironically, the only surviving railway building from the branch line is also another wooden goods shed at Simonstone which (as of 2023) is still in good shape and being used.

The address appears to be Riley House, Station Road
- unless the factory and offices were in separate buildings

An official invitation to the opening of the new factory on 22 June 1984 gives the RSVP address as Riley House, Station Road. In the late 1990s they moved to what sounds like a smaller industrial unit in Burnley, but went out of business in 2002, although the name may have been sold on.

Source: snookerheritage website.

Thanks for that, I found it, the address was Station Road, the offices were attached to the eastern end of the factory building, apparently they were based in Accrington before the move to the new factory in Padiham on the former goods yard site.

So this might be the link you need to start a search

Link at reply #28, I saw your reply this morning and had a look, not the easiest site to navigate but I went through the relevant sections and strangely could not find any reference to the snooker factory application or anything railway related? Any more ideas anyone?

 

[WesternLancer]

Link at reply #28, I saw your reply this morning and had a look, not the easiest site to navigate but I went through the relevant sections and strangely could not find any reference to the snooker factory application or anything railway related? Any more ideas anyone?

Yes, tricky to navigate so well done for looking. Seems odd that it's not there. I suspect it's a long shot but I suppose the other option would be to e-mail the planning department and say you are looking for old planning applications for such and such a site between aprox date x and date y and do they have anything on record.

Of course chances are they would then simply refer you to that web page...

Also sometimes old planning docs get transferred to your local archive service (often a county wide service) so the same question could be put to them - but suspect to then look at stuff one has to go to the archives and look through old micro filmed records.

But as you say, this is strange - since the construction of a factory building on the site would seem to be something that would need planning permission when done in the era concerned - ie after the closure of the railway - so one would have expected it to come up on that Historic Planning Records site.