how long would a direct train between penzance and inverness via london take?

[generalvegitable]

I had a thought that it would be quite interesting if there was an open access operator doing this sort of service, using a highly modified (ie separate power cars and hybrid) 10 car class 222, I would not be sure of the exact route but max speed would be 125 mph and an express style stopping pattern, the route can be of your own imagination but it must pass through either the east london line (lets say its done), west london line or the thameslink line. I have almost no knowledge of speed limits or making up timetables so I would accept anything really (as long as it is reasonably realistic timings so no teleporting between London and Edinburgh to save time for example)

 

[Ivo]

Mmm... interesting question!

My answer is quite long, General , so bear with me. Said train would, in my opinion, probably stop at the following (with maybe a couple of alterations):

Penzance
St Erth
Camborne
Redruth
Truro
St Austell
Par
Bodmin Parkway
Liskeard
Plymouth
Newton Abbot
Exeter St David's
Tiverton Parkway
Taunton
Reading

...before having to take some daft route through London; I would have to suggest running via Willesden Junction but you don't seem to support this idea - could always use the fabled route between Ealing Broadway and Kensington (Olympia)...! Anyway, to resume, using the route above and including a sly connection to King's Cross:

Camden Road
Finsbury Park
Peterborough
York
Newcastle
Edinburgh Waverley
Haymarket
Kirkcaldy
Perth
Pitlochry
Kingussie
Aviemore
Inverness

PNZ - 110 - PLY
PLY - 180 - RDG
RDG - 50 - FPK
FPK - 270 - EDB
EDB - 90 - PTH
PTH - 130 - INV

Allow 40 minutes stabling time at various locations (especially PLY and EDB).

= 870 minutes, or 14½ hours

[This is an estimate remember!]

 

[142094]

If it was running express I'd expect it to only stop at say Plymouth, Reading, London, Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Waverley and Inverness. This would quite drastically cut the time down, but would still mean that some mains flows are catered for.

 

[BRX]

Yup there is definitely a gap in the market for a direct connection between Cornwall and the Highlands. And it would be made even more popular by its uneccessarily direct route. But why stop at Inverness?? Might as well broaden its catchment by carrying on to Wick or Thurso.

 

[142094]

Might not be a market for that but would still make money from different flows such as Penzance - London, London - NE and Edinburgh, Edinburgh - Inverness. Much in the same way as Open Acess operators such as Grand Central exploit the York - London flows for the money from ORCATS.

 

[David]

Ivo - Your very optomistic in having it run between Reading and Finsbury Park in only 50 minutes! Add about another hour on to that !!!

Much in the same way as Open Acess operators such as Grand Central exploit the York - London flows for the money from ORCATS.

That's more due to the fact that NXEC (and before them, GNER) missed 2 lucrative markets. Namely Hull (and East Yorkshire) to London and Durham Coast to York/London

 

[robert2000]

Welcome to my new railway company, we could not find a path through London, however we found this path.

our timings are great, 1 train per hour. class 221 refurbished in 2010 ex XC voyager, we put 2 together to make 8 carriages.
easy connection to and from wick/kyle of lochalsh at inverness.

1st class available, trolley service and on board shop for standard class.

calling at.
penzance
truro
par
plymouth
newton abbot
exeter st davids
taunton
bristol temple meads
birmingham new street
burton on trent
derby
chesterfield
rotherham central
pontefract baghill
york
thirsk
newcastle
edinburgh waverley
perth
inverness

 

[Ivo]

How is Reading to Finsbury Park in 50 minutes optimistic? It's 30 to Paddington, so I would have thought that an extra 20 would be reasonable.

And robert2000: Any ideas for a name for this company?

 

[BRX]

Welcome to my new railway company, we could not find a path through London, however we found this path.

our timings are great, 1 train per hour. class 221 refurbished in 2010 ex XC voyager, we put 2 together to make 8 carriages.
easy connection to and from wick/kyle of lochalsh at inverness.

1st class available, trolley service and on board shop for standard class.

calling at.
penzance
truro
par
plymouth
newton abbot
exeter st davids
taunton
bristol temple meads
birmingham new street
burton on trent
derby
chesterfield
rotherham central
pontefract baghill
york
thirsk
newcastle
edinburgh waverley
perth
inverness

Will your company also be doubling the Highland Main Line?

 

[robert2000]

no, we connect to the 13.34 departure to kyle of lochalsh and 13.59 departure to wick.

The 1st 06.34 from lairg, 06.21 from kyle of lochalsh and the 06.20 and 08.12 from wick will connect to 1 of our services to penzance.
that is just an example, we do actually connect with all highland services, even on sundays.

like WSMR, we encountered the same problem, there are some stations we cannot call at.

now this sounds real. if only all the member from this forum could start our own TOC.

sorry i edited this post, i wanted to mention the highland connections

 

[Ivo]

I wondered why you skipped Cheltenham Spa and Darlington, among others, but included some more obscure examples, e.g. Thirsk. Do like the new TOC idea

The good folk of this forum would certainly do a damn sight better than Arriva with the CrossCountry franchise. Fr one thing, I'd propose ignoring the DfT and reinstating the Brighton service...

 

[David]

How is Reading to Finsbury Park in 50 minutes optimistic? It's 30 to Paddington, so I would have thought that an extra 20 would be reasonable.

Not quite that simple! Depending on the route onto the NLL, you'll either join it at either Acton Wells Jn or Kew New Jn (Not 100% of junction names. I'm sure someone with local knowledge will corect me). Either way, it's a case of dodge the stoppers and freight along there. Along the way, you have to go through Willesden Jn High Level (and the connection with the WLL), Gospel Oak, Camden Town (complete with the junction to the WCML and more freights), finally reaching Freight Terminal Jn.

A far better route is something along the lines BRX posted, but I would route it up the WCML from Birmingham, then from Carlisle, call at Carstairs, Motherwell, Coatbridge, Stiring and Perth before heading up the Highland Main Line.

The 2 big benefits of that route is that it is quicker than going via York, plus it restores a link lost when the Inverness - London was switched to the ECML.

 

[robert2000]

brx didnt post it, i did.

i dont want to have to turn my train so people face forward then back, for each half of journey. like when the holyhead train turns at chester to go to cardiff.

 

[David]

Sorry! while reviewing the topic while making my post, I just scrolled up and saw the list in a post made by BRX.

Anyway, there is no need to reverse at Birmingham, as from Cheltenham, you can go Kings Norton - Camp Hill - Birmingham - Wolverhampton avoiding the need to reverse. Alternatively, you can follow the normal route via University into New Street, then out via Aston, Walsall and the Wolves avoiding line to Bushbury Jn, then on to Stafford.

 

[robert2000]

WCML is too overcrowded for us aparantly.

what time do i have to leave penzance to arrive in birmingham at a reasonable morning time. plus i want to connect with the kyle of lochalsh and wick service at lunchtime.

 

[David]

To get to Birmingham at a resonable time (for example 10am), then that would have to leave Penzance about 0415-0430). Bare in mind York - Inverness is about 7 hours (assuming you still plan to go via the ECML), then to get the lunchtime service to Wick, that would mean departing York at the very latest 0630, which means smething like a 2300 departure from Penzance the previous night! (at least it would get you to Birmingham nice and early ).

 

[Lampshade]

You'd probably have to depart Penzance the previous evening and make it a sleeper service :P

 

[robert2000]

looks like penzance - kyle and wick cannot be done in the morning.

i will have an early morning train starting from birmingham at 5am, hoping to arrive in inverness in time for the connection
and early morning southbound starting from birmingham at 4am. arr penzance at 10am.
first inverness train leaves at 04.15 arrives bhm 11 ish, penzance 5pm ish, lol .
first train departs penzance at 04.15, arrives inverness in time for the 17.52 departure to kyle/wick, which splits at muir of ord i believe.

this is harder than i thaught. on the other hand, its not like im stopping at every stop on the way. so should be quicker than XC.

i will do a draft timetable in the morning when im more awake.

yes you heard me correctly, bhm to inverness in 7 hours.

 

[Waverley125]

would be a mad calling pattern though...

St Erth
Redruth
Camborne
Truro
St Austell
Par
Bodmin Parkway
Liskeard
Plymoth
Totnes
Newton Abbott
Exeter St Davids
Tiverton Parkway
Taunton
Castle Cary
Reading
Willesden Junction High Level
Stevenage
Peterborough
Grantham
Newark North Gate
Retford
Doncaster
York
Northallerton
Darlington
Durham
Newcastle Central
Morpeth
Alnmouth
Berwick upon Tweed
Dunbar
Edinburgh Waverley
Haymarket
Kirkcaldy
Markinch
Perth
Pitlochry
Blair Atholl
Newtonmore
Kingussie
Aviemore
Inverness

 

[starrymarkb]

If it was running express I'd expect it to only stop at say Plymouth, Reading, London, Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Waverley and Inverness. This would quite drastically cut the time down, but would still mean that some mains flows are catered for.

You'd have to stop at Exeter - it is a major interchange and the busiest station in Devon

 

[Failed Unit]

I would go for some interesting countryside views.

Penzance,
Plymouth
Exeter
Bristol TM
Bath
Swindon,
Oxford
Leamington Spa
Coventry
Nuneaton,
Leicester
Nottingham
Sheffield
Leeds
Settle
Carlisle
Motherwell
Stirling (via direct Cumbernauld)
Perth
Inverness

Yes it reverses, yes it is slow but and yes it would be impossible to path but hey?

 

[jopsuk]

I reckon the idea wouldn't get off the ground- I don't think the market for through trains is there, so essentially (on the via London route) you're basically trying to take revenue from First Great Western, East Coast and Scotrail by duplicating existing services.

Open Access only gets approved where it offers truly new services.

 

[robspaceman]

Penzance
Truro
Plymouth
Exeter
Taunton
Bristol TM
Newport for S Wales (or avoid it on the curve)
Abergavenny
Hereford
Shrewsbury
Crewe
Manchester Piccadilly
Glasgow
Edinburgh Waverley
Haymarket
Kirkcaldy
Markinch
Perth
Pitlochry
Blair Atholl
Newtonmore
Kingussie
Aviemore
Inverness

This would be a sleeper service departing Penzance at 6pm-ish. Northbound berths will be available to all those south of and including Crewe.

I'd be interested in some timings from those more knowledgeable than I (it might have to leave Penzance earlier?)

Creates new journey opportunities between SW England and West Midlands, and is an alternative to air travel between Cornwall, Exeter, Bristol, Midlands and Manchester to Scotland (and vice versa).

 

[142094]

That's more due to the fact that NXEC (and before them, GNER) missed 2 lucrative markets. Namely Hull (and East Yorkshire) to London and Durham Coast to York/London

Granted East Yorkshire, but for teh Durham coast there is not that great a market, with a lot of GC trains quite empty between Sunderland and Northallerton. The main flows seem to be York - Kings Cross, Thirsk/Northallerton - York, Sunderland - York. In the morning most people on the train coming into York from Sunderland are schoolchildren from Thirsk and Northallerton, then it fills up again with those going to London. I've only seen a few where people are going Sunderland - London, usually around the time of football matches.

Before GC all you had to do was to get a train either to Newcastle or Darlington via Thornaby. Even now it can be quicker to go via Newcastle for Sunderland due to the long time it takes from Northallerton to Sunderland, depending on connections.

 

[37401]

Nah lets go one better 08+Load 8 Mk1+08 Penzance-Wick via BHM and Lickey incline, or 2 car pacer (crap ive started a pacer thread! time to scream...)

 

[Ivo]

I would go for some interesting countryside views.

Penzance,
Plymouth
Exeter
Bristol TM
Bath
Swindon,
Oxford
Leamington Spa
Coventry
Nuneaton,
Leicester
Nottingham
Sheffield
Leeds
Settle
Carlisle
Motherwell
Stirling (via direct Cumbernauld)
Perth
Inverness

Yes it reverses, yes it is slow but and yes it would be impossible to path but hey?

I won't complain - does mean I get a non-FGW service for once...!

Although, I'm not quite about the inclusion of Settle. One, if Settle, why not Appleby, and two... it has barely 2,000 residents. Yes, you get the tourism side of things. But to manage that just get Tornado to run your service every Sunday!

My revised non-London (and far faster) idea:

Penzance
St Erth (holiday and summer weekends only)
Truro
St Austell
Par (holiday and summer weekends only)
Liskeard (holiday and summer weekends only)
Plymouth
Exeter St Davids
Taunton
Bristol Temple Meads
Cheltenham Spa
Birmingham New Street
Wolverhampton
Crewe
Warrington Bank Quay
Wigan North Western
Preston
Lancaster
Carlisle
Motherwell
Edinburgh Waverley
Haymarket
Perth
Pitlochry
Kingussie
Aviemore
Inverness

 

[StewieG]

I won't complain - does mean I get a non-FGW service for once...!

Although, I'm not quite about the inclusion of Settle. One, if Settle, why not Appleby, and two... it has barely 2,000 residents. Yes, you get the tourism side of things. But to manage that just get Tornado to run your service every Sunday!

My revised non-London (and far faster) idea:

Penzance
St Erth (holiday and summer weekends only)
Truro
St Austell
Par (holiday and summer weekends only)
Liskeard (holiday and summer weekends only)
Plymouth
Exeter St Davids
Taunton
Bristol Temple Meads
Cheltenham Spa
Birmingham New Street
Wolverhampton
Crewe
Warrington Bank Quay
Wigan North Western
Preston
Lancaster
Carlisle
Motherwell
Edinburgh Waverley
Haymarket
Perth
Pitlochry
Kingussie
Aviemore
Inverness

I was just going to say, why doesn't someone just make an extension of the service XC have already got? Instead of it going upto Glasgow/Edinburgh, continue upto Inverness the whole way!!

 

[robert2000]

because XC wud put an appeal in.

 

[tbtc]

I won't complain - does mean I get a non-FGW service for once...!

Of course, the journey is possible entirely by daytime FirstGroup services (ignoring the sleeper).

Penzance - Reading - Gatwick - London Kings Cross - Doncaster - Manchester Picadilly - Edinburgh Waverley - Inverness (and on to Wick/ Thurso if required).

The transfer from Thameslink to Overground platforms at KX is a cheat, I know, but it goes to show how much of the railway First control.

You could even get the First bus from Lands End at the start of the journey.

 

[robert2000]

is there a bus to john o groats from wick at the end .

my route is better still because it avoids the busy stockport viaduct and manchester piccadilly.

london midland and virgin seem to have the bhm to north west covered anyway, so i can just go up the ECML.