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How many lines closed to passengers which were not listed in the Beeching Report?

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daodao

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The problem with Ilfracombe is the alternatives - the roads are awful, it's a national park so they're not going to get better, they funnel through Braunton or you take the wackiest A-road the country has ( single track at times & goes via Porlock hill ). Ilfracombe does rather rely on the holiday trade too. The problem with the line I think was that there were too many level crossings & no desire to do anything about them ( albeit one of them was right across the main road to the coastal section west of Ilfracombe, and that is insanely busy in the summer ). That closure is one I think that fell through every possible gap, hence it's protracted demise. Nowadays it'd be a similar sort of dormitary town for Exeter as Barnstaple is.
There used to be an alternative way to visit Ilfracombe (neither road nor rail), which I used on a number of occasions, in fact it is the only way I have ever travelled there. It was only just over 2 hours from Porthcawl.
 
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Haltwhistle to Alston was not included in the report. The branch closed in 1976 when improved road access to Alston became available.

And the irony is the firat winter after the new wonder road opened and the line closed it was snowed in and Alston was cut off!
 

Irascible

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There used to be an alternative way to visit Ilfracombe (neither road nor rail), which I used on a number of occasions, in fact it is the only way I have ever travelled there. It was only just over 2 hours from Porthcawl.

Exeter by boat would be a heck of a commute :D
 

24Grange

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Was Bere Alston - Meldon, closed due to Beeching specifically? Or a natural consequence of closing Padstow & Bude et al...
I always thought they should have kept open Tavistock and Okehampton and closed the bit in between.

Or closed specifically due to the state of Meldon viaduct ? ( even though the viaduct had the headshunt across it until 1990)
 

Gloster

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Was Bere Alston - Meldon, closed due to Beeching specifically? Or a natural consequence of closing Padstow & Bude et al...
I always thought they should have kept open Tavistock and Okehampton and closed the bit in between.

Or closed specifically due to the state of Meldon viaduct ? ( even though the viaduct had the headshunt across it until 1990)
Okehampton-Plymouth and Bere Alston-Callington were listed for closure. Exeter-Okehampton was listed as retaining a modified service with all intermediate stations except Crediton closed.
 

swt_passenger

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Slightly OT, but.....

That was part of it - but even if the platform extension hadn't done that it would have been an operational nightmare as it would have reduced capacity through the core for trains heading to / from Moorgate.

Ever since Thameslink re-opened in the latter half of the 80s, the Moorgate service from the Midland had been much reduced and by the time it was closed, it was down to a couple of peak hour trains a day. Add in those that did run could only stop at Barbican (the one intermediate stop) when heading east wards as the westbound platform was out of use - I think platform lengths were the problem ?
The west bound platform was certainly short for an 8-car, but was also far too narrow to have a big crowd waiting safely, and only accessible from one end. I don’t suppose it ticked many safety boxes at all…
 

24Grange

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Okehampton-Plymouth and Bere Alston-Callington were listed for closure. Exeter-Okehampton was listed as retaining a modified service with all intermediate stations except Crediton closed.
I guess it also fell foul of Beeching's "duplicate" routes - which Waterloo - Exeter narrowly missed!
 

Irascible

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I guess it also fell foul of Beeching's "duplicate" routes - which Waterloo - Exeter narrowly missed!

To be fair, and without wishing to bring up the alternate route thing yet again - Salisbury to Exeter does have settlements/catchements with sufficient size to maintain a station. It was rationalised about as much as it possibly could be & has only relatively briefly had through trains past Exeter since, so it's mostly not a duplicate route unless you're starting in Exeter & ending somewhere on the east section ( it's always been a surprisingly popular choice for London from Exeter ).

I suspect if Meldon quarry wasn't there then Okehampton would have been in the report too.
 

24Grange

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I think they wanted to single the whole of the Waterloo - Exeter line, but realised just in time that the Warships couldn't keep time on it ( waiting) so they kept double track around Yeovill-Sherbourne and singled the rest .

I guess Tavistock suffered as a train from Plymouth would have had to reverse at Bere Alston for Calstock etc and then go to Tavistock. ( unless 2 units split at Bere Alston and then rejoin on the up trip) - 2 units being used would also probably been a no no in the cash strapped 1960's.
 

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I think they wanted to single the whole of the Waterloo - Exeter line, but realised just in time that the Warships couldn't keep time on it ( waiting) so they kept double track around Yeovill-Sherbourne and singled the rest .

I guess Tavistock suffered as a train from Plymouth would have had to reverse at Bere Alston for Calstock etc and then go to Tavistock. ( unless 2 units split at Bere Alston and then rejoin on the up trip) - 2 units being used would also probably been a no no in the cash strapped 1960's.
I hope that they didn’t want to single the whole Waterloo-Exeter line: it would have got a bit congested beyond Clapham Junction.

At first only Templecombe-Sherborne was retained as double-track, but this quickly proved unworkable and the second line was reinstated as far as Yeovil Junction. However, for some years the double-track terminated east of the station, which was on the single-track section to Chard Junction. Yeovil Junction A box had been retained for the line to Pen Mill.
 

Scotrail84

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Cowdenbeath to Bridge of Earn/Hilton Jn via Kinross? Was that a beeching suggestion?
 

Gloster

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Cowdenbeath to Bridge of Earn/Hilton Jn via Kinross? Was that a beeching suggestion?
No. It was not listed for closure in the report, but all the remaining stations except Kinross were listed for closure. Was it not the wish to use part of the formation for the M90 that finally brought about closure?
 

nw1

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Beeching considered it a route worth retaining and developing, especially as an orbital freight route, but Barbara Castle thought otherwise.

Surprising, I'd have thought that Oxbridge politicians of all people would see the value of an Oxford-Cambridge line! ;)
 

Journeyman

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No. It was not listed for closure in the report, but all the remaining stations except Kinross were listed for closure. Was it not the wish to use part of the formation for the M90 that finally brought about closure?
I think this was part of a closure programme the Scottish Region developed itself in the late 60s and early 70s.
 

Gloster

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Surprising, I'd have thought that Oxbridge politicians of all people would see the value of an Oxford-Cambridge line! ;)
But they only acknowledge the existence of their own alma mater, never the other place. Which is why we have the M11 and M40 motorways from London, but nothing going across.
 

Djgr

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But they only acknowledge the existence of their own alma mater, never the other place. Which is why we have the M11 and M40 motorways from London, but nothing going across.
There is actually little traffic between Oxford and Cambridge. The only things that I am aware of are inter-varsity sports and quiz teams (University Challenge training!)
 

nw1

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But they only acknowledge the existence of their own alma mater, never the other place. Which is why we have the M11 and M40 motorways from London, but nothing going across.

True ;) ... but it does of course make both Oxford and Cambridge more accessible from other places, not just each other.
 

RT4038

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True ;) ... but it does of course make both Oxford and Cambridge more accessible from other places, not just each other.

British Railways first proposed closure of the line in 1959, so presumably loadings were not fantastic then.

I suspect the reason that it was not contained in the Beeching Report is that all of the other cross country lines in the area were either (a) in the process of being closed as the report was being researched and prepared (Buckingham-Banbury, Northampton-Bedford, Bedford-Hitchin etc) or (b) were contained in the Report for closure (Peterborough to Rugby and Northampton etc, Bletchley-Buckingham etc). In the absence of quality data of longer distance travellers, it would not have been known whether these closures would cause any users of these lines to transfer to the Oxford-Cambridge line and improve its fortunes. Also the rail map looked pretty bare with no cross country line south of the Birmingham-Leicester-Peterborough service.

When the dust settled of all these closures, by 1966, it was realised that very few passengers had transferred and the Oxford-Cambridge line economics were still hopeless. (The truth being that there were very few passengers travelling on these closed lines anyway, and what little was there used the splendid omnibus services of the district instead). Therefore the line was proposed for closure and the rest is history.
 

Scotrail84

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No. It was not listed for closure in the report, but all the remaining stations except Kinross were listed for closure. Was it not the wish to use part of the formation for the M90 that finally brought about closure?


Once heard a story that BR were paid off to close that line so the M90 could be built over part of the trackbed. No idea if there is any truth in that or not.
 

nw1

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British Railways first proposed closure of the line in 1959, so presumably loadings were not fantastic then.

I suspect the reason that it was not contained in the Beeching Report is that all of the other cross country lines in the area were either (a) in the process of being closed as the report was being researched and prepared (Buckingham-Banbury, Northampton-Bedford, Bedford-Hitchin etc) or (b) were contained in the Report for closure (Peterborough to Rugby and Northampton etc, Bletchley-Buckingham etc). In the absence of quality data of longer distance travellers, it would not have been known whether these closures would cause any users of these lines to transfer to the Oxford-Cambridge line and improve its fortunes. Also the rail map looked pretty bare with no cross country line south of the Birmingham-Leicester-Peterborough service.

When the dust settled of all these closures, by 1966, it was realised that very few passengers had transferred and the Oxford-Cambridge line economics were still hopeless. (The truth being that there were very few passengers travelling on these closed lines anyway, and what little was there used the splendid omnibus services of the district instead). Therefore the line was proposed for closure and the rest is history.

I don't think it helped that the service wasn't great, and had no pretentions to being InterCity or even 'Regional Express' from what I can make out. While it's a fair point that local journeys might be better served by buses, the route provided, potentially, an inter-city link between East Anglia and the West Country, as well as opening up connectivity to both Oxford and Cambridge from other parts of the country.

If someone had had the imagination to create say a two-hourly Cross-Country type service from Bristol to Norwich via Oxford and Cambridge, stopping only at the major towns (so something like Bath, Chippenham, Swindon, Oxford, Bletchley, Bedford, Cambridge, Ipswich (? - bit vague as to the geography of rail lines round here) and Norwich, for example, I'm sure it would have attracted passengers who wished to travel from west to east avoiding London - even if the small local stations had to be closed.
 
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But they only acknowledge the existence of their own alma mater, never the other place. Which is why we have the M11 and M40 motorways from London, but nothing going across.
Kind of explained in an episode of Yes Minister when it was remarked that Oxford and Cambridge got motorways before the likes of Portsmouth and Southampton!
 

Mcr Warrior

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Kind of explained in an episode of Yes Minister when it was remarked that Oxford and Cambridge got motorways before the likes of Portsmouth and Southampton!
Might possibly have been the later "Yes, Prime Minister" and if I correctly recall, it was also hinted that the M40 to Oxford was completed much sooner than the M11 to Cambridge because more of the Civil Service / ministerial elite were Oxford-educated rather than were Cambridge-educated. 8-)
 

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Might possibly have been the later "Yes, Prime Minister" and if I correctly recall, it was also hinted that the M40 to Oxford was completed much sooner than the M11 to Cambridge because more of the Civil Service / ministerial elite were Oxford-educated rather than were Cambridge-educated. 8-)
I have a feeling that Hacker asked why there were two motorways to Oxford long before there was one to Cambridge. Bernard Woolley’s reply was on the lines of, ‘It’s years since the Department of Transport had a Permanent Secretary who went to Cambridge.’ The trouble with Yes, (Prime) Minister is that they were made around forty years ago, but nothing has changed, unless it is for the worse.
 
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Bigman

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I am surprised that the Clayton West branch in West Yorkshire has now been mentioned. That was in the 80's.
 

Djgr

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I am surprised that the Clayton West branch in West Yorkshire has now been mentioned. That was in the 80's.
Was Clayton West included in the Beeching Report and if not, how did it escape it?
 

RT4038

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I don't think it helped that the service wasn't great, and had no pretentions to being InterCity or even 'Regional Express' from what I can make out. While it's a fair point that local journeys might be better served by buses, the route provided, potentially, an inter-city link between East Anglia and the West Country, as well as opening up connectivity to both Oxford and Cambridge from other parts of the country.

If someone had had the imagination to create say a two-hourly Cross-Country type service from Bristol to Norwich via Oxford and Cambridge, stopping only at the major towns (so something like Bath, Chippenham, Swindon, Oxford, Bletchley, Bedford, Cambridge, Ipswich (? - bit vague as to the geography of rail lines round here) and Norwich, for example, I'm sure it would have attracted passengers who wished to travel from west to east avoiding London - even if the small local stations had to be closed.

I don't think that this 'imagination' would ever have got off the drawing board. Anybody suggesting such a thing would have been laughed away, at that time.

British Railways were very short of cash at that time, and any available investment money would have been used in either (a) improving the speed and efficiency of the main Inter-City routes, or (b) reducing the costs, particularly that of labour [i.e. elimination of steam traction, manned level crossings, manual signalling etc]. This line had a large amount of manual level crossings between Oxford and Bedford, and was manually signalled throughout, except in the vicinity of Bletchley Station. Money going to upgrade these would have been money taken away from upgrading the core network. The line was operated by diesel multiple units. Running diesel multiple units from Bristol to Norwich would not have been an attractive proposition for passengers. Diesel locomotives would be more expensive to operate, and anyway were all required at that time for the elimination of steam traction, and diverting them away from this task would have financial repercussions elsewhere and unlikely to be agreed.

BR already had plenty of experience of long distance trains largely over the secondary network, and it wasn't good financially. (Midland & Great Northern, Midland & South Western Junction, Somerset & Dorset, York-Bournemouth via the Great Central and various others). The small number of passengers that would be attracted to such a service as you suggest would be more economically served by the Associated Motorways coach network, which catered for most of the flows.

There would have been a number of operational constraints - there was only one through platform (serving both directions) at Cambridge in those days, so capacity was tight for through trains. The trains would have had to cross the WCML on the flat at Bletchley. There would have been no interchange at Bedford (the stations are about a mile between each other, and the link lines, whilst in situ were not passenger lines, and only DMUs could have reversed in the south bay platforms of the then Midland Road station). The platforms at Sandy prevented the ECML from being four tracked at that point, which was required for capacity enhancement. All of these could have been resolved (indeed some are being now), but only by the application of large sums of money, which was simply not available.

Simply, the likely revenue from these trains would come nowhere near paying for the costs of running the line, and the investment required to reduce some of those costs was not justified to redirect it away from elsewhere on the network.
 
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Might possibly have been the later "Yes, Prime Minister" and if I correctly recall, it was also hinted that the M40 to Oxford was completed much sooner than the M11 to Cambridge because more of the Civil Service / ministerial elite were Oxford-educated rather than were Cambridge-educated. 8-)
That's the quote I now remember!!
 

vic-rijrode

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Northampton to Market Harborough was open until at least 1970 even if the intermediate stations were closed. I remember going on a Watford to Hull (yes) special train in 1969 which used this line to get from the LNWR to the Midland, then ran along the "Old Road" from Chesterfield to Rotherham Masborough, before using the Doncaster "By-pass" line.
 

Gloster

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Northampton to Market Harborough was open until at least 1970 even if the intermediate stations were closed.
The line is almost regarded as not existing (as far as passenger services were concerned) by the Beeching report: it hardly appears to be on the map and doesn’t seem to be listed in the text. I suspect that it was already considered to be closed, even if it was still available for use as a diversionary route.
 
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