How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

[Alanko]

This came to mind when visiting the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway over half term. I'm sure they're doing their best, but it's not much of a day out. One trip there and back again on a fairly tatty DMU, and you've done it all.

Not one I'd ever heard of, but their Wikipedia page indicates that they have quite an impressive roster of diesels in working order.


I get disheartened when I see the list of locos at a preserved railway and it reads:

Steam loco 1 - boiler certificate set to expire in 2014
Steam loco 2 - stored out of use

Class 37 - stored out of use
Class 37 - awaiting restoration
Class 40 - awaiting overhaul, due back in service (three years ago)
Class 47 - on long term loan to another railway

What they do have working is a couple of boring wee diesel shunters, a Hunslet Austerity, and some mis-matched, faded mk1s. All the interesting stuff is dead and left to rot next to the tracks, or part of some wildly ambitious restoration attempt.

 

[Killingworth]

I note the half term visit to Ecclebourne was 3 years ago. I walked by last week, before the lock down, and the stock in the platform looked to be in reasonable to very good condition. Unfortunately all the good work that was evident around the site is now brought to a halt, probably for most of 2020. As it will be on almost all parts of every heritage railway.

Felt rather old recalling my first DMU journey from Newcastle to Carlisle in a unit just like this in 1957, sitting excitedly behind the driver in the front right hand seat. Saw them heading for South Gosforth depot for servicing alongside the Tyneside electrics if memory is correct.

 

[SquireBev]

I note the half term visit to Ecclebourne was 3 years ago.

My visit? It was last month.

 

[Alan Warren]

Seems like the Mid Norfolk Railway are able to earn a little bit of income from Greater Anglia stock storage/movements. This photo (courtesy of the Mid Norfolk Facebook page) was taken within the last few days.

 

[Worf]

This from Wensleydale Railway today.

From our Acting Chairman (Guy Loveridge)

I am sure everyone is curious and concerned about what is happening 'behind the scenes' during the enforced C-19 lock down and closure. The plc board have not been idle and, working with Teresa Chapman and others have secured over £24,000 of funding. This has come from a Local Authority grant of £10,000 - the plc appeal which stands, as I write at £5,055 from the public, the additional funds coming from shareholders who have increased their holding and the efforts of Paul Warren to sell off short dated stock from the buffet car etc The Trust's Match Funded appeal is also now in full swing with more than 25% of its intended £50,000 target reached. With other funding streams being investigated, our first aim - the security of the line's finances has been secured. We are also planning what the Wensleydale Railway will look like when we eventually emerge from "lock down". We have Pacers to embrace and plans for Polar Express 2020 are already in action. We will recover from this, and we will be a slightly different railway, but still the same line running to the Heart of the Dales.

 

[HLE]

Depending on how Boris and his sidekicks plan to exit the lockdown, I can see the majority of heritage railways in serious trouble in the long term financially and from a resource point of view too. A decent chunk of their volunteers are getting on in years and may be unable to resume their old roles until the summer of 2021 at the earliest. Preserved lines won't have the cash reserves to just shut down until then so they'll need to think about how they can get services running as soon as they can to get some funds flowing into the coffers. Crowdfunding won't work in the long term.

I did find the appeal in the news some months ago to 'recruit' new, younger steam drivers hilarious. For years they've made new volunteers clean out the ash pits, work in the shed on the locos, and generally be the dogsbody of the shed for years before being within a sniff of the footplate. All to drive a knackered loco at 25mph up a pres line.

I really can see a decent chunk of these lines going under, by simply not being able to operate services even when they legally can. Must be hundreds of people on here who'd gladly help out their local line should the call go out!

 

[paul1609]

Depending on how Boris and his sidekicks plan to exit the lockdown, I can see the majority of heritage railways in serious trouble in the long term financially and from a resource point of view too. A decent chunk of their volunteers are getting on in years and may be unable to resume their old roles until the summer of 2021 at the earliest. Preserved lines won't have the cash reserves to just shut down until then so they'll need to think about how they can get services running as soon as they can to get some funds flowing into the coffers. Crowdfunding won't work in the long term.

I did find the appeal in the news some months ago to 'recruit' new, younger steam drivers hilarious. For years they've made new volunteers clean out the ash pits, work in the shed on the locos, and generally be the dogsbody of the shed for years before being within a sniff of the footplate. All to drive a knackered loco at 25mph up a pres line.

I really can see a decent chunk of these lines going under, by simply not being able to operate services even when they legally can. Must be hundreds of people on here who'd gladly help out their local line should the call go out!

I can only talk for my line but we have a fair proportion of our drivers who are under the age of 40. The only grade that age would be an issue is signalmen but even that is manageable.
We have a detailed financial plan in place as much as we can in terms of being firmly in the territory of unknown unknowns. We have applied for all the financial assistance from external authorities that we can. We have had some good news in that 80 % of people who have advance bookings that we cant fulfil have generously banked the payment in gift cards rather than taking refunds.
We are confident that we can survive, its not all doom and gloom.

 

[HLE]

Sounds positive. Good to read about the age profile too, much more sustainable.

If and when the green light is given (see what I did there) the heritage lines like all attractions need to be out the blocks as soon as possible.

 

[Peter C]

Depending on how Boris and his sidekicks plan to exit the lockdown, I can see the majority of heritage railways in serious trouble in the long term financially and from a resource point of view too. A decent chunk of their volunteers are getting on in years and may be unable to resume their old roles until the summer of 2021 at the earliest. Preserved lines won't have the cash reserves to just shut down until then so they'll need to think about how they can get services running as soon as they can to get some funds flowing into the coffers. Crowdfunding won't work in the long term.

I did find the appeal in the news some months ago to 'recruit' new, younger steam drivers hilarious. For years they've made new volunteers clean out the ash pits, work in the shed on the locos, and generally be the dogsbody of the shed for years before being within a sniff of the footplate. All to drive a knackered loco at 25mph up a pres line.

I really can see a decent chunk of these lines going under, by simply not being able to operate services even when they legally can. Must be hundreds of people on here who'd gladly help out their local line should the call go out!

My local heritage line (GWSR) has got through a few major incidents before (landslips at Gotherington and Winchcombe) but this is obviously something more serious as people are at risk from catching an extremely dangerous virus. The length of the line is one of the reasons why so many people visit it as it gives a good long run and I'm hoping that after this lockdown ends people will return to the line as they used to (although this may take a very long time before passenger numbers return to pre-COVID-19 stats).
I think a fair number of the volunteers at the GWSR are young and this will hopefully mean that the line can return to running some trains soon. I don't know the ins-and-outs of operating a heritage line, though, so this may be completely impossible. But this isn't the place to speculate about that sort of thing.
The GWSR is currently going through two problems - COVID-19 and a landslip at Gotherington. Both things need fundraising to help the railway get through them and if enough people don't donate, I'm worried that we'll see the line either going under or not returning to any sort of normal for a good few years. I know the latter is less of a problem on face value, but no services would lead to a decline in passenger numbers and therefore maybe put the line in danger.

-Peter

 

[theironroad]

Sounds positive. Good to read about the age profile too, much more sustainable.

If and when the green light is given (see what I did there) the heritage lines like all attractions need to be out the blocks as soon as possible.

I'd imagine that all those drivers under 40 also spent many years starting as a cleaner and slowly working up the ladder.

Also, while they may have advertised for younger recruits to be steam drivers, again I guess the small print is...... eventually

 

[Cowley]

Depending on how Boris and his sidekicks plan to exit the lockdown, I can see the majority of heritage railways in serious trouble in the long term financially and from a resource point of view too. A decent chunk of their volunteers are getting on in years and may be unable to resume their old roles until the summer of 2021 at the earliest. Preserved lines won't have the cash reserves to just shut down until then so they'll need to think about how they can get services running as soon as they can to get some funds flowing into the coffers. Crowdfunding won't work in the long term.

I did find the appeal in the news some months ago to 'recruit' new, younger steam drivers hilarious. For years they've made new volunteers clean out the ash pits, work in the shed on the locos, and generally be the dogsbody of the shed for years before being within a sniff of the footplate. All to drive a knackered loco at 25mph up a pres line.

I really can see a decent chunk of these lines going under, by simply not being able to operate services even when they legally can. Must be hundreds of people on here who'd gladly help out their local line should the call go out!

I think all heritage railways are different in the way they deal with volunteer staff to be honest @HLE. Some lines clearly have not moved with the times whereas others seem to be more progressive.
It seems to me that it depends on who’s running particular areas when it comes to encouraging newer members to take steps up the ladder or to end up in a role that they’re suited for or really want to do.
I suppose what I’m saying is that you can’t generalise too much as there are so many lines and no two are run the same...

 

[Titfield]

I noted the reference to spending years to work up the ladder. If anyone is prepared to put the time in ie say volunteer every week(end) rather than say once a month they will build up their skills, experience and competency more quickly and can thus advance through the ranks more quickly (in terms of years). The progression of cleaner passed cleaner fireman passed fireman driver has stood the test of time.

 

[paul1609]

I'd imagine that all those drivers under 40 also spent many years starting as a cleaner and slowly working up the ladder.

Also, while they may have advertised for younger recruits to be steam drivers, again I guess the small print is...... eventually

Loads of our volunteers go on to work on the mainline in one role or the other so the heritage railway even to driver is often only a small step in their railway career. This to the extent that our safety director is Managing Director of one of the Independent Freight companies and a board member of RFG. He's just passed out as a steam driver after 40 odd years!

For us the current system works and we will be honest that to get to driver takes a fair bit of spare time and determination. Generally our cleaners will be rostered to be out on the footplate every 3rd cleaning turn but the vast majority of cleaners wont make it to Fireman let alone Driver.

 

[theironroad]

I assume that it was his desire to take 40 years to get there rather than having to wait that long for a vacancy.

 

[alexl92]

This from Wensleydale Railway today.

From our Acting Chairman (Guy Loveridge)

I am sure everyone is curious and concerned about what is happening 'behind the scenes' during the enforced C-19 lock down and closure. The plc board have not been idle and, working with Teresa Chapman and others have secured over £24,000 of funding. This has come from a Local Authority grant of £10,000 - the plc appeal which stands, as I write at £5,055 from the public, the additional funds coming from shareholders who have increased their holding and the efforts of Paul Warren to sell off short dated stock from the buffet car etc The Trust's Match Funded appeal is also now in full swing with more than 25% of its intended £50,000 target reached. With other funding streams being investigated, our first aim - the security of the line's finances has been secured. We are also planning what the Wensleydale Railway will look like when we eventually emerge from "lock down". We have Pacers to embrace and plans for Polar Express 2020 are already in action. We will recover from this, and we will be a slightly different railway, but still the same line running to the Heart of the Dales.

I hope that the Wensleydale Railway continues to appreciate the importance of having a regular steam services when this is over, and that they don't lean too heavily on the novelty of the pacers (especially when one of them is apparently due to become some kind of sustainable home eventually).
Whilst steam is more expensive and labour intensive to run, increasing what they can offer will be key to persuading people to come, and in turn allowing them to grow. The partnership with the A1 trust & the introduction of the Polar Express experience is an excellent start, as is their relationship with the NELPG and the NYMR which has seen the J27 operate there the past two years. They need to build on this and ideally get a resident locomotive in - rumour has it they're interested in the J52 at York which may be available for a restore-and-run agreement.

I noted the reference to spending years to work up the ladder. If anyone is prepared to put the time in ie say volunteer every week(end) rather than say once a month they will build up their skills, experience and competency more quickly and can thus advance through the ranks more quickly (in terms of years). The progression of cleaner passed cleaner fireman passed fireman driver has stood the test of time.

I was at the KWVR last year and the crew operating the 4F all appeared to be under 30 (and I'm a similar age so this made me very jealous!) so clearly there are railways where you can move through the ranks quickly. Likewise I think if you're a regular volunteer on the NYMR you can qualify as a driver in just over 2 years?

 

[paul1609]

I assume that it was his desire to take 40 years to get there rather than having to wait that long for a vacancy.

Yes, we have several drivers who made it in their early twenties. Some competencies do have a limitation to the numbers who hold them unfitted guards for instance because the amount of turns wouldn't allow people to keep up the competency but we are not at that stage with steam crew.

 

[backontrack]

I've had a couple of emails from La'al Ratty today – their newsletter and an attempt to sell 'gifts' like footplate rides. I think they're almost certainly one of the best-placed heritage railways at the moment though.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

"Steam Railway" seems to vary month on month. One month it will be pure tabloid and I can't be bothered. However, this month it demonstrates its better side.

There is a very interesting article about the lines which have money in the bank and are going to wait a bit before launching appeals to top up their reserves. The significant thing is that those who are fortunate enough not to be too close to the bank are of all sizes. Some of the biggest cries of alarm are coming from the large places.

There are more things than sheer size that will affect survival. Does the organisation own its land and equipment debt free, thus avoiding rent, interest or hire charges? Places can furlough their staff with Government grants but if there are rents, hire fees or interest the outgoings will still be substantial.

 

[Titfield]

Swanage Railway are saying it costs £46K per month even when closed. That is a huge amount of money.....

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

As I understand it, they own very little freehold and the same is true of the equipment. Somewhere owning the land and much or all of the equipment is at a huge advantage if the income tap is turned off for any reason.

 

[Titfield]

I have heard it said that they rent all the land, buildings, works, locomotives (except the T9 and 2 X 08 shunters) and own just a handful of carriages and wagons and the track they have struggled for 40 years to relay. As you say got to be a huge advantage owning the assets you need.

 

[HLE]

All depends whether you can get finance to buy the assets outright though. Daresay the bank's aren't queuing up to give out a loan.

 

[Titfield]

Not sure the freeholders Dorset Council / Swanage Town Council would sell the land / buildings even if Swanage Railway could borrow the money.

 

[theironroad]

I have heard it said that they rent all the land, buildings, works, locomotives (except the T9 and 2 X 08 shunters) and own just a handful of carriages and wagons and the track they have struggled for 40 years to relay. As you say got to be a huge advantage owning the assets you need.

Do they own the track bed for the whole line?

Are all the stations etc owned by others then?

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

It is a bit late to be thinking about these sorts of things now. It should have been done years ago and in some places it was.

 

[Titfield]

Trackbed and buildings owned I think by Dorset Council and Swanage Town Council.

 

[Cowley]

Trackbed and buildings owned I think by Dorset Council and Swanage Town Council.

@Midnight Sun has provided some extra detail here:

What happens to the infrastructure of a heritage railway when it goes out of business?

The Lavender Line would look shaky if Lewes-Uckfield is reopened. I suspect they would still be able to retain the yard at Isfield, so in practice they would lose their short length of running line. I believe their general position has been supportive of re-opening.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Looks like the Bluebell are now short of funds also...

<<Link to BBC webstory>>

 

[Titfield]

I suspect that very few heritage railways have the funds in the bank to ride out the loss of income from 2 or 3 months non operating let alone a whole summer season.

Sadly even with the donations being made it wont be long before either a closure or redundancies are announced.

It grieves me to be pessimistic but.......

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

It grieves me to be pessimistic but.......

I share your pessimism, I'm afraid.

Railways with large and relatively wealthy support bases such as the FfR/WHR and SVR should be okay. The SVR has already weathered a crisis of this magnitude and, in the Ffestiniog's case, they have very good political connections.

The very small operations with low incomes and outgoings may well be able to ride out the storm as well.

It's the middle sized operations that will struggle most, in my opinion. I don't mean all medium sized operations of, of course, but I think that's the part of the sector that's likely to be hardest hit.