How many steam locos did BR withdraw under the 1955 Modernisation Plan

[Bevan Price]

From RCTS Stock Books - Diesel Loco withdrawals (including Departmental Locos)
1955 Nil
1956: 1 (12002) + 2 Petrol shunters (15097/98)
1957 :2 (Departmental shunters DS400, ZM90) + Gas Turbine 18100
1958: 2 (10100, 15107)
1959: 2 (10800, 11001) + 1 Petrol shunter (49S)
1960: Nil + Gas Turbine 18000 + 4 Petrol shunters (Departmental 23/24/26/27)
1961: 1 (12000)
1962: 2 (12001, 15004)
1963: 6 (10000, 10201-03, D2700, DS600 (Departmental)
1964: 8 (D6502 (accident); 12030, 15201-03, ED4/7, ZM32) + Battery loco BEL1
1965: 5 (D1734 (accident); 15100, ED2/5/10) (6 x Cl. 08 shown as withdrawn were converted to Cl. 13)
1966: 18 (D1671, D5383, D6983 (all accident), 10001; + 15 shunters)
1967: 286 (too many to list, but included many shunters: 26 ex-LMS 350hp, the last ex-LNER & GWR 350hp,
62 x NBL 225 hp (D27xx); 83 x 204 hp, plus D5051, D6301, D9522/31, 6 x D57xx and 30 x D61xx)

1968: 422 (D800-02, D5122, D6576, 14 x D5700, 4 x D5900, 23 x D6100, 5 x D6300, 46 x D8500, 10 x D84xx, 15 x D82xx, 43 x D95xx, plus numerous shunters, including 77 non-standard variants of BR-built 350 hp, 34 x Class 03 and 74 x Class 04)
(Typo correction to show class 03)

This (1969 issue) was the last RCTS Stock Book in "traditional format" listing loco stock, new & withdrawn in individual years.

 

[randyrippley]

I was trying to get at the same stats just by checking the class data in google, but the bulk of the shunters were essentially 04/10/11/12 plus the machines which never got TOPS numbers. Looks like there was a massive clear-the-decks in preparation for TOPS

 

[Cowley]

I was trying to get at the same stats just by checking the class data in google, but the bulk of the shunters were essentially 04/10/11/12 plus the machines which never got TOPS numbers. Looks like there was a massive clear-the-decks in preparation for TOPS

Yep. Hell of a lot of stuff around then.
It probably wasn’t noted in the scheme of things (end of steam and all that), but there was an enormous amount of diesel shunting locos being taken out of stock.
Very interesting.

 

[Taunton]

Also at nationalisation were any of the companies still using duplicate/shadow loco numbers for stock that was officially fully depreciated, supposedly replaced but still in stock? If so they may not have appeared on any asset lists

That approach seems to have died out with the 1923 grouping and resulting renumbering. I've wondered previously if it was some feature of old finance legislation, which led to new build locomotives having numbers scattered all over, and renumbering if a loco was withdrawn to take its place, as if there was some rule not to have missing numbers, while old locos might have an A stuck on the end. Were locos fully depreciated left out of the annual reports by some need to reconcile them with the calculated depreciation shown in the accounts? The LMS did bring to BR a lot of old stock which had had 20000 added to their numbers to release their originals for new build.

 

[randyrippley]

Seems to have been an accounting trick where if a new loco was given a reused number its building costs could be treated as a repair/rebuild and paid for out of revenue, rather than out of capital. Would keep the new loco's value off the asset books so the business wouldn't look overcapitalised, but also reduced profit - and so reduced tax.
I'm sure an accountant can explain better

 

[Bevan Price]

Seems to have been an accounting trick where if a new loco was given a reused number its building costs could be treated as a repair/rebuild and paid for out of revenue, rather than out of capital. Would keep the new loco's value off the asset books so the business wouldn't look overcapitalised, but also reduced profit - and so reduced tax.
I'm sure an accountant can explain better

It was an accountancy device where effectively new locos were classed as "rebuilds" of older locos. One of the better known examples was the LMSR Patriot Class, nominally rebuilds of the LNWR Claughtons, but including - at most - just a few parts from the original locos.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yep. Hell of a lot of stuff around then.
It probably wasn’t noted in the scheme of things (end of steam and all that), but there was an enormous amount of diesel shunting locos being taken out of stock.
Very interesting.

Yes - there was a massive reduction in the need for shunters following the post-Marples/Beeching changes & closures. The older and non-standard classes were first to go, but even after that, BR found itself with hundreds of surplus shunters. That included over 100 Class 08-lookalike 350 hp shunters with Blackstone or Crossley diesel engines rather than English Electric engines. Some of the "Blackstone" type became TOPS Class 10, but none lasted long enough to recieve TOPS numbers

 

[steambuffer]

From RCTS Stock Books - Diesel Loco withdrawals (including Departmental Locos)
1955 Nil
1956: 1 (12002) + 2 Petrol shunters (15097/98)
1957 :2 (Departmental shunters DS400, ZM90) + Gas Turbine 18100
1958: 2 (10100, 15107)
1959: 2 (10800, 11001) + 1 Petrol shunter (49S)
1960: Nil + Gas Turbine 18000 + 4 Petrol shunters (Departmental 23/24/26/27)
1961: 1 (12000)
1962: 2 (12001, 15004)
1963: 6 (10000, 10201-03, D2700, DS600 (Departmental)
1964: 8 (D6502 (accident); 12030, 15201-03, ED4/7, ZM32) + Battery loco BEL1
1965: 5 (D1734 (accident); 15100, ED2/5/10) (6 x Cl. 08 shown as withdrawn were converted to Cl. 13)
1966: 18 (D1671, D5383, D6983 (all accident), 10001; + 15 shunters)
1967: 286 (too many to list, but included many shunters: 26 ex-LMS 350hp, the last ex-LNER & GWR 350hp,
62 x NBL 225 hp (D27xx); 83 x 204 hp, plus D5051, D6301, D9522/31, 6 x D57xx and 30 x D61xx)

1968: 422 (D800-02, D5122, D6576, 14 x D5700, 4 x D5900, 23 x D6100, 5 x D6300, 46 x D8500, 10 x D84xx, 15 x D82xx, 43 x D95xx, plus numerous shunters, including 77 non-standard variants of BR-built 350 hp, 34 x Class 03 and 74 x Class 04)
(Typo correction to show class 03)

This (1969 issue) was the last RCTS Stock Book in "traditional format" listing loco stock, new & withdrawn in individual years.

Hi Bevan,

Thanks very much, this is all very interesting information. I'm thinking of putting this into prospective by showing the data in a timeline or a graph. Something to do over the holidays!

Regards,
Streambuffer

 

[70014IronDuke]

I was trying to get at the same stats just by checking the class data in google, but the bulk of the shunters were essentially 04/10/11/12 plus the machines which never got TOPS numbers. Looks like there was a massive clear-the-decks in preparation for TOPS

I don't think there was any such effort for TOPS as such - I see it more as a strict policy to eliminate non-standard classes and reduce training and maintenance costs, costs of stores and the like.

From RCTS Stock Books - Diesel Loco withdrawals (including Departmental Locos)
... 1967: 286 (too many to list, but included many shunters: 26 ex-LMS 350hp, the last ex-LNER & GWR 350hp,
62 x NBL 225 hp (D27xx); 83 x 204 hp, plus D5051, D6301, D9522/31, 6 x D57xx and 30 x D61xx)

1968: 422 (D800-02, D5122, D6576, 14 x D5700, 4 x D5900, 23 x D6100, 5 x D6300, 46 x D8500, 10 x D84xx, 15 x D82xx, 43 x D95xx, plus numerous shunters, including 77 non-standard variants of BR-built 350 hp, 34 x Class 03 and 74 x Class 04)
(Typo correction to show class 03)

This (1969 issue) was the last RCTS Stock Book in "traditional format" listing loco stock, new & withdrawn in individual years.

Wow, fascinating list. Interesting to see that NBL shunters went as quickly, if more quietly, as their more powerful 'brother' D61xx and D63xx locos.

As for the Claytons and Swindon D95xx jobs - so many shockingly new locomotives - the paint can hardly have been dry on some. The other failed type 1s escaped my memory first time round - not so many D84xx, but the D82xx were quite numerous - 44 according to Wiki.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It was called the “National Traction Plan” and came out years before TOPS was authorised. Certain classes were to be eliminated and/or run down, to reduce maintenance costs.

In the case of diesel shunters, the 08/09 was the “standard” and 03/06 retained where the duties remained, the rest were to go. Type 1 was to be the 20, rest to go and so on the plan went through the then entire diesel fleet.

It was brutal and 1971 saw several classes go very quickly. The WR were slightly slower in getting rid of some of their Hydraulics but 1972 saw the final end of the Warships and the Hymeks had a very bad year. Not that many of them remained past 1973, when the withdrawal of the Westerns started.

 

[gg1]

The RCTS Locomotive Stock Books give end of year locomotive totals for many years. Figures for years before 1948 are the totals for (LMSR + LNER + GWR + SR)
Steam Locos (including narrow gauge):
Dec. 1922: 23,890
1933: 20,807
1938: 19,577
1947: 20,023
1951: 19,503
1954: 18,420
1955: 17,955
1956: 17,522
1957: 16,954
1958: 16,103
1959: 14,457
1960: 13,276
1961: 11,691
1962: 8767
1963: 7050
1964: 4973
1965: 2987
1966: 1689
1967: 362
1968: 3 (VOR locos)

There's a complete list of the locos remaining at the end of 1967 at the wiki page below (although this page says 363, not sure where the extra 1 came from):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Railways_steam_locomotives_as_of_31_December_1967

The most interesting point for me is over 80% of these are LMS 8Fs and black 5s rather than the later BR standards.

If anyone knows of similar lists for earlier years (just the total number of locos by type, not the individual loco numbers), I'd be very interested to see it.

 

[Bevan Price]

There's a complete list of the locos remaining at the end of 1967 at the wiki page below (although this page says 363, not sure where the extra 1 came from):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Railways_steam_locomotives_as_of_31_December_1967

The most interesting point for me is over 80% of these are LMS 8Fs and black 5s rather than the later BR standards.

If anyone knows of similar lists for earlier years (just the total number of locos by type, not the individual loco numbers), I'd be very interested to see it.

That info is also in the RCTS Stock Books. Too many to list every year at the moment, but here is a selection, which I will split into several posts:

First figure is number in stock for Dec. 1962, followed by figure for 1965
4-6-2
SR BB/WC: 110/54
SR MN: 30/16
LMS Duchess: 33/0
LNER A1: 43/2
LNER A2, A2/3: 14/2
LNER A3: 50/1
LNER A4: 29/6
BR Britannia: 55/53
BR Clan: 5/2

4-6-0
GWR County: 21/0
Castle: 97/0
Hall: 173/0
Grange: 76/0
Manor: 30/0
SR S15: 41/0
LMSR 5MT: 820/627
LMSR Jubilee: 143/15
LMSR Royal Scot: 41/0
Rebuilt Patriot: 16/0
LNER B1: 288/91
BR 73xxx: 172/115
BR 75xxx: 80/67

(To be continued)

 

[randyrippley]

The most interesting point for me is over 80% of these are LMS 8Fs and black 5s rather than the later BR standards.

I guess partly due to the volumes those machines were built in, but note ALL those remaining machines were on the Midland region......
But to what extent were the Riddles machines built with wartime austerity habits to reduce costs? That would have given them a reduced life span

 

[Bevan Price]

I guess partly due to the volumes those machines were built in, but note ALL those remaining machines were on the Midland region......
But to what extent were the Riddles machines built with wartime austerity habits to reduce costs? That would have given them a reduced life span

I suspect the short life of the BR Riddles locos was associated with their boiler lives. From memory, a typical steam loco tended to get a boiler replacement or boiler heavy overhaul about every 10 years - so by the mid-1960s, quite a lot needed new boilers, and it was decreed that it was not worth the cost for locos expected to last for maybe another 2-3 years.

 

[Bevan Price]

(Continuation), Steam loco end of year totals at Dec. 1962 / Dec. 1965
4-4-0:
SR Class T9: 1/0

2-10-0
BR 92xxx: 251/170

2-8-0
GWR 28xx: 110/0
47xx: 6/0
LMSR Stanier 8F: 661/543
LMSR Fowler S&DR: 5/0
LNER Class O1: 30/10
Class O2: 40/0
Class O4 variants: 116/13
WD: 650/227

2-6-2
LNER Class V2: 115/14

2-6-0
GWR 43xx: 68/0
SR Class N: 78/6
Class U: 48/4
Class U1: 4/0
LMSR Hughes Crab: 181/27
Stanier 5MT: 40/16
Ivatt 4MT: 162/99
Ivatt 2MT: 115/82
LNER Class K1: 67/31
BR 76xxx: 115/92
BR 77xxx: 20/19
BR 78xxx: 65/43

0-8-0:
LMSR/LNWR G2/G2a: 9/0
LNER Class Q6: 118/40

0-6-0:
GWR 2251 Class: 53/0
SR SECR Class C: 3/0
SR Class Q: 17/0
SR Class Q1: 40/3
LMSR MR 2F: 3/0
LMSR MR 3F: 3/0
LMSR MR 4F: 77/0
LMSR 4F: 396/12
LMSR Cal.R 2F: 16/0
Cal.R. Assorted 3F: 20/0
LNER NER Class J27: 79/44
LNER NBR Class J36: 32/8
LNER NBR Class J37: 67/17

(Tank locos to follow)

 

[Clarence Yard]

I suspect the short life of the BR Riddles locos was associated with their boiler lives. From memory, a typical steam loco tended to get a boiler replacement or boiler heavy overhaul about every 10 years - so by the mid-1960s, quite a lot needed new boilers, and it was decreed that it was not worth the cost for locos expected to last for maybe another 2-3 years.

Not quite, boiler overhauls were done at a more frequent interval. The survival of so many LMS types as opposed to standards was purely down to a numbers game within the LM region. In 1964 General Overhauls effectively ceased and surviving locomotives were subject to monetary limits on repairs. Intermediate repairs on LMR locos carried on till 1966 and, as locos fell by the wayside, it was the more numerous Stanier types that dominated the LMR picture until 1968.

One of the features of the LMR steam rundown was the adherence to the BRB policy of trying to eliminate smaller (in number) classes at the appropriate time. In late 1965 it sent black 5’s into the ex GWR sheds to replace GWR 4-6-0’s and then into Colwick, then going from ER to LMR, where they replaced B1 4-6-0’s. They also stored relatively good condition LMS design locos for use later, when others wore out.

Actual boiler life could be several decades. The British practise was to go “twice round” with fireboxes so a loco could usually go at least one intermediate before it needed serious firebox attention. By the end of steam the expected boiler life had risen considerably, thanks to better water treatment and improved workshop techniques. The LMS had led on the former and the GWR on the latter.

 

[gg1]

That info is also in the RCTS Stock Books. Too many to list every year at the moment, but here is a selection, which I will split into several posts:

VERY interesting, thanks.

I now know what my next rail related ebay purchase will be too

 

[Bevan Price]

(Continuation), Steam loco end of year totals at Dec. 1962 / Dec. 1965
2-8-2T
GWR 72xx: 52/0

2-8-0T
GWR 42xx: 54/0
GWR 5205: 56/0

2-6-4T
SR Class W: 15/0
LMSR Fowler: 50/2
LMSR Stanier (2 cyl): 144/26
LMSR Fairburn: 231/90
BR 80xxx: 154/79

2-6-2T
GWR 45xx: 22/0
GWR 51xx: 71/0
GWR 61xx: 53/0
GWR 81xx: 5/0
LNER Class V3: 26/0
LMSR Ivatt 2MT: 109/39
BR 2MT 84xxx: 30/0
BR 3MT 82xxx: 45/15
VOR (narrow gauge): 3/3

0-6-2T
GWR 56xx: 171/2
SR LBSCR Class E4: 4/0

0-6-0PT
GWR 1366: 3/0
GWR 15xx: 5/0
GWR 16xx: 39/3
GWR 54xx: 3/0
GWR 57xx: 405/27
GWR 64xx: 13/0
GWR 74xx: 27/0
GWR 94xx: 106/0

0-6-0ST
LNER J94: 45/3

0-6-0T
LNER J50: 12/0
LNER NER J72: 19/0
SR Class USA: 8/6
SR LBSCR A1X: 9/0
SR LBSCR E2: 2/0
LMSR MR 1F: 9/5
LMSR 2F Dock tank: 3/0
LMSR MR 3F: 13/3
LMSR 3F: 235/83

0-4-4T
SR LSWR M7: 15/0
SR LSWR O2: 18/14 (In Isle of Wight)
SR SECR H: 7/0

0-4-2T
GWR 14xx: 19/0

0-4-0ST
LMSR 0F: 10/4
LMSR L&YR 0F: 4/0
GWR (acquired): 2/0

0-4-0T
SR LSWR B4: 3/0
LMSR MR 0F: 5/2

 

[Bevan Price]

For information, the RCTS Locomotive Stock Books were published in 1935, 1937, 1939, 1946, 1948, 1950, 1952, 1960, 1963, 1966 and 1969. These listed locos in stock, newly built locos, and included railways in Ireland, plus some minor railways. The 1969 stock book also included BR dmus and emus. The 1969 book also includes a reprint of the first (1935) stock book.
Appendixes to the Stock Books were issued in 1938, 1947, and for 1952 to 1954. These showed only changes but not a full stock list for those years.

Later Stock Books in 1977 & 1983 listed only current stock, plus lists of BR diesel locos sold for industrial service that were still in use.

 

[steambuffer]

Hello,

Having read through "The Reshaping of British Railways" (AKA the 1955 Modernisation Plan), it makes an interesting statement regarding the future provision of main line Diesel traction. In particular, it states that there is a requirement for approximately 3,750 to 4,250 diesels to displace steam under the plan, between 1955-68.

Does anyone know how close did BR come to achieving this aim?

Steambuffer

 

[Clarence Yard]

I have the modernisation era diesel main line total as 3092, including Falcon, which was finally taken into stock in 1970. Type totals are as follows; 5-22, 4-1106, 3-508, 2-1001 and 1-455.

In addition the 59 electro diesels (49 as built and 10 converted) would have been classed as Type 1 if they only had Diesel engines. However their electrical h.p. rating was much greater than a type 1!

 

[randyrippley]

Hello,

Having read through "The Reshaping of British Railways" (AKA the 1955 Modernisation Plan), it makes an interesting statement regarding the future provision of main line Diesel traction. In particular, it states that there is a requirement for approximately 3,750 to 4,250 diesels to displace steam under the plan, between 1955-68.

Does anyone know how close did BR come to achieving this aim?

Steambuffer

Part of that requirement was met by DMUs.
But you can't look at that requirement in isolation because the later deliveries were affected by, and coincided with, the failure of the modernisation plan as a cost cutting exercise, and the subsequent Beeching cuts which were another way to reduce costs - and reduced demand for new stock. The fact that you had a ten year hiatus in locomotive deliveries after the class 37 and 47, and a near 20 year hiatus in DMU deliveries should tell you that they built more than was required

 

[70014IronDuke]

Part of that requirement was met by DMUs.

Was it? (Serious question). I mean, are you saying BR got more than expected out of the planned 1st gen DMUs, or that they built more to cover for some reduced number of main line diesels? I'm trying to think when the last of the 1st gen DMUs was built - 1963? 64?

Or perhaps you mean that the massive line closures post Beeching allowed more DMUs to take over services that had previously been planned for loco haulage? OR a mixture of these?

But you can't look at that requirement in isolation because the later deliveries were affected by, and coincided with, the failure of the modernisation plan as a cost cutting exercise, and the subsequent Beeching cuts which were another way to reduce costs - and reduced demand for new stock. The fact that you had a ten year hiatus in locomotive deliveries after the class 37 and 47, ...

Haven't you forgotten the Cl 50s? Built 1967-68. (Yes, I know technically they were on hire to BR for a number of years.)

... and a near 20 year hiatus in DMU deliveries should tell you that they built more than was required

Yes, they had - but that was after many closures, both pre- and post- the doctor's spell, and well after the majority of DMU orders, I should wager.

 

[randyrippley]

Was it? (Serious question). I mean, are you saying BR got more than expected out of the planned 1st gen DMUs, or that they built more to cover for some reduced number of main line diesels? I'm trying to think when the last of the 1st gen DMUs was built - 1963? 64?

Or perhaps you mean that the massive line closures post Beeching allowed more DMUs to take over services that had previously been planned for loco haulage? OR a mixture of these?

No, what I meant was that intended figure for "diesels" was really for diesel trainsets and included the DMUs.
But certainly they did get more from them than expected: the rate at which DMUs took over WR services so quickly was remarkable

Haven't you forgotten the Cl 50s? Built 1967-68. (Yes, I know technically they were on hire to BR for a number of years.)

Deliberately ignored them as outside the main plan, still ten years between them and the 56 fleet

Yes, they had - but that was after many closures, both pre- and post- the doctor's spell, and well after the majority of DMU orders, I should wager.

Agreed, the point I was trying to make was that by then the cuts had made the plan irrelevant and paved the way for the national traction plan to REDUCE numbers

 

[43096]

Deliberately ignored them as outside the main plan, still ten years between them and the 56 fleet

I would argue electric locos should be included as they were part of the modernisation plan and the initial schemes replaced steam in many cases. Doing so reduces your 10 years to 5 years (1968 Class 50 to 1973 Class 87).

 

[randyrippley]

I would argue electric locos should be included as they were part of the modernisation plan and the initial schemes replaced steam in many cases. Doing so reduces your 10 years to 5 years (1968 Class 50 to 1973 Class 87).

The electric requirement was accounted for separately - the question was about the diesel requirement.
But in reality even if you include the class 87, that's a total of 36 locos in the nine years between the class 50 and the class 56. Totally irrelevant in the greater sphere of things. However you look at it, there was an effective ten year gap in building any significant numbers of locos.
That ten years coincided with the closure or mothballing of all the privately owned loco assembly plants - remember Brush had to subcontract their share of the 56 contract overseas because they no longer had a capable work force

 

[Bevan Price]

The Class 87s were built because more locos were needed when Crewe to Glasgow and Edinburgh were electrified in 1974. Plus Classes 82, 83 & 84 had proved to be somewhat unreliable.

 

[43096]

The Class 87s were built because more locos were needed when Crewe to Glasgow and Edinburgh were electrified in 1974. Plus Classes 82, 83 & 84 had proved to be somewhat unreliable.

Classes 83 & 84 were overhauled/refurbished for the Glasgow electrification weren’t they? They had been stored since the late 60s.

 

[randyrippley]

Classes 83 & 84 were overhauled/refurbished for the Glasgow electrification weren’t they? They had been stored since the late 60s.

The official story was putting 83/84 back into use reduced the number of 87 that were needed. It always struck me that this was juggling by BR as the three classes 82/83/84 totaled 35, and there were 35 production 87s built (plus of course the 87101 experimental machine)
All three classes ended up being used for secondary duties as makeshift shunters / ECS locos. Another example of too many types of rubbish.

 

[70014IronDuke]

No, what I meant was that intended figure for "diesels" was really for diesel trainsets and included the DMUs. ...

Fair enough

I've decided to start a new thread on the Cl 56 Romania build story, as this is getting so far away from the steam loco flotilla of 1948 as to represent stella thread drift.