How might the Climate Emergency affect railway policy?

[GRALISTAIR]

Now that a Climate Emergency Declared how do you think it will affect railway policy?

 

[Bletchleyite]

More wires going up one hopes.

 

[JamesT]

It was an Opposition Day motion. I’m not sure that parliament passing it has any actual effect on the government doing anything.

 

[RLBH]

It might see any or all of the following:

• Severe restrictions on air travel leading to an increase in long-distance train travel.
• Severe restrictions on private motoring leading to a general increase in train usage.
• Severe restrictions on road freight transport leading to an increase in rail freight.
• The above increases in traffic causing the entire network to seize up in such a way that engineering works to relieve the pressure only cause worse problems.
• A total ban on combustion-fuelled engines seeing many lines closed due to lack of suitable traction.
• Extensive electrification to decarbonise railway operations.
• Widespread slowing down of services to reduce energy consumption, hence emissions.
• A ban on electrification, or any railway works at all, due to the carbon dioxide associated with construction. One of the more likely ones under here is cancellation of HS2.
• A decision to focus the rail network on short-distance travel, removing paths for 'unnecessary' long-distance services to fit in more local trains
• Complete prohibition of any kind of travel.
• No effect whatsoever on anything.

Obviously some of these are more likely than others.

 

[PeterC]

Government U turn when faced with a backlash following the crash in property values for flats and terraced houses as the inability to charge an EV effectively bans residents from owning their own vehicles.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Government U turn when faced with a backlash following the crash in property values for flats and terraced houses as the inability to charge an EV effectively bans residents from owning their own vehicles.

I see where you are coming from.

Lets take the perfect storm. It is night time -or actually could be during the day at work - which is a logical time to recharge a vehicle. I will try and do the maths sometime about the amount of current required. Lets assume you are also running electric freight trains etc too. Lets now say you have a dull cloudy day (or night) and there is no wind but it is quite warm. Where will the electricity be generated from?. I will come up with some numbers but I estimate as a minimum you will need to build 10 MINIMUM new Nuclear Power Stations. If you are serious, you better start building them now.

THIS WILL NOT BE EASY

 

[johnnychips]

If I park on the street at night, and I can’t always park outside my house, how do I charge the car... @GRALISTAIR this could be another meaning for the Great Extension Lead

 

[brad465]

Perhaps one way could be all railway stock over a certain age is scrapped due to relatively uneconomical fuel consumption (diesel or electric). The scrap metal/other parts are recycled in such a way that they feature in future modern rolling stock (to avoid energy use associated with brand new raw materials) with greater energy efficiency, which does the obvious for diesel, and even for electric the railway leads to less use or more potential for same energy use

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If I park on the street at night, and I can’t always park outside my house, how do I charge the car... @GRALISTAIR this could be another meaning for the Great Extension Lead

Had not thought about that - said tongue in cheek - but a totally legitimate concern for those without driveways.

 

[randyrippley]

We all know that fuel use inflates exponentially with increased speed, so impose a national speed restriction of 80 mph on all routes.
Would also save a fortune in infrastructure costs

 

[Glenmutchkin]

If I park on the street at night, and I can’t always park outside my house, how do I charge the car.QUOTE]
Km

If I park on the street at night, and I can’t always park outside my house, how do I charge the car... @GRALISTAIR this could be another meaning for the Great Extension Lead

Will owning a house and/or a personal car continue to be an option for those who are not mega rich?

 

[Bletchleyite]

We all know that fuel use inflates exponentially with increased speed, so impose a national speed restriction of 80 mph on all routes.
Would also save a fortune in infrastructure costs

I don't think I'd go 80, but there is an argument that HS2 should just be a conventional 125mph line with Pendolinos running on it (cheaper to build and less energy requirement) and other lines 100mph but very high capacity.

 

[Bald Rick]

We all know that fuel use inflates exponentially with increased speed, so impose a national speed restriction of 80 mph on all routes.
Would also save a fortune in infrastructure costs

Thought you meant for motorways!

 

[randyrippley]

Thought you meant for motorways!

restrict them to 60 (or maybe 50 like we did during the 1970's oil crisis)

 

[Bald Rick]

It might see any or all of the following:

• Severe restrictions on air travel leading to an increase in long-distance train travel. Won’t happen
• Severe restrictions on private motoring leading to a general increase in train usage. Won’t happen
• Severe restrictions on road freight transport leading to an increase in rail freight. Won’t happen, indeed couldn’t happen. Different markets largely.

What might happen:

* Legislation to ban new internal combustion engines in cars / vans, possible earlier than the 2040 timescale currently indicated. No effect on car traffic generally.

* change in taxation for road use changes from fuel duty to mileage / time based electronic charging. This makes urban public transport more attractive, rural public transport less attractive.

* additional air passenger duty for domestic / short haul flights

* significant further development of hybrid / battery technology. Hydrogen hybrids for passenge4 trains shown to be a non starter.

* all new trains specified to be electric / battery electric hybrids (my guess is that this will happen before this decade is out)

* some lightly used branch lines that are too far from electrification will close, replaced by electric buses with much better environmental credentials. (Conwy Valley, I’m looking at you)

* further electrification on the busiest / higher speed lines. Mid 2020 - Mid 2030s.

* diesel hybrids converted to battery hybrid. Late 2020s on.

* battery / hydrogen hybrid locos for freight traffic; regular hybrid loco with a ‘tender’ for the energy, just like it was for the first 140 years of railways. 2030s.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Here is what may happen:

The British 'Vanity Project' way:

1. Unprofitable lines will be effectively closed by 'Environmental Decree'
2. Unwanted diesel trains will rot (fly-tipped) in old marshalling yards.
3. Due to 2, trains will be short formed.
4. People will use polluting cars
5. Tolls (i.e. speed cameras with low speeds) will be set up everywhere.
6. Electrification will be proposed
7. It will be done cheaply with line closures
8. Ticket prices will hike up.
9. People will drive even more
10. Pollution will get worse
11. Extinction Rebellion will continue issuing 'prison heaven' guides.
12. Protest groups will block the country.
13. The country's economy will get worse
14. The country will lose people
15. The country will no longer have anything to produce CO2 with.
16. The country's air quality will improve.
17. The country will move back in time.
18. We end up becoming a backwards country but...
19. The air will be fresh!

The European way:

1. Very limited closures will happen in an open way. (E.g. Stourbridge Branch, parliamentary services etc.)
2. Money will be invested in electrification very efficiently.
3. Digital toll gates charging sensible and balanced tolls will be built.
4. A decree will limit car usage to 'necessary' usage and move commuters off cars.
5. Diesel trains will be removed from service and (possibly) converted.
6. Passengers will like the new railway
7. They will take it more.
8. Ticket prices get reduced/frozen.
9. More investment happens
10. The country's air gets better and better

The most likely outcome:

1. Parliament debates what can be done.
2. Electrification is proposed
3. Tolls are proposed
4. A 'Car tax' is proposed
5. A 'Breathing Tax' is proposed
6. All are rejected.
7. Nothing happens

 

[GRALISTAIR]

hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - no one told you when to run , you missed the starting gun. The sun is the same in a relative way but your older - one day closer to death

Apologies to Pink Floyd

 

[Ken H]

Perhaps one way could be all railway stock over a certain age is scrapped due to relatively uneconomical fuel consumption (diesel or electric). The scrap metal/other parts are recycled in such a way that they feature in future modern rolling stock (to avoid energy use associated with brand new raw materials) with greater energy efficiency, which does the obvious for diesel, and even for electric the railway leads to less use or more potential for same energy use

trains are basically a tube with seats in it, holes for windows and some traction guff underneath. you can change a train by replacing the traction guff. South Western did that to avoid having to build a new depot as the new traction stuff regenerated so the brake pads didnt wear out so fast.
The 165's were designed to be converted to EMU if GW electrification happened.
Lets advocate retractioning, not replacing the whole train.
Maybe Northern should re-traction the 319's??

 

[brad465]

trains are basically a tube with seats in it, holes for windows and some traction guff underneath. you can change a train by replacing the traction guff. South Western did that to avoid having to build a new depot as the new traction stuff regenerated so the brake pads didnt wear out so fast.
The 165's were designed to be converted to EMU if GW electrification happened.
Lets advocate retractioning, not replacing the whole train.
Maybe Northern should re-traction the 319's??

While I see your point here, I did also read in the Scotrail HST introduction thread about Mk3s not being in good condition structurally, so if the train bodies cannot be effectively "patched up" recycling them via scrap will have to happen.

 

[PHILIPE]

Get it into Failing Grayling's head that cancellation of electicification schemes is folly

 

[Ken H]

While I see your point here, I did also read in the Scotrail HST introduction thread about Mk3s not being in good condition structurally, so if the train bodies cannot be effectively "patched up" recycling them via scrap will have to happen.

They are mild steel. they can have bits welded on to make them sound again.

 

[td97]

Hydrogen hybrids for passenge4 trains shown to be a non starter.

Not sure on that - further trials were included in the new MML franchise

further electrification on the busiest / higher speed lines. Mid 2020 - Mid 2030s.

No need for a 'climate emergency' for that to happen...
Most likely outcome is nothing will happen, perhaps apart from the environmental advantages of new schemes being promoted to the public more. Which is a trick initially missed on HS2; promoting headline speed not capacity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure on that - further trials were included in the new MML franchise

Yes I know, and the trials will show it’s s non-starter!

 

[Struner]

No need for hydrogen hybrid. Just hydrogen.
It's on its way.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

No need for hydrogen hybrid. Just hydrogen.
It's on its way.

Not doable for freight.

 

[dgl]

another issue with electric cars is being actually able to charge them on route, watch hubnut's video on YouTube of the Jaguar IPACE and you'll see what I mean.
Plus if you have a long distance to travel, need to charge on the way and go away whilst it's doing it then you better hope it doesn't go wrong and stop charging as you are gone! That exact scenario happened in the mentioned video above.

 

[Struner]

Not doable for freight.

Never said it was.
But perfectly doable for passenger trains on branchlines like FNL, Kyle line & WHL.

 

[duffield]

If I park on the street at night, and I can’t always park outside my house, how do I charge the car... @GRALISTAIR this could be another meaning for the Great Extension Lead

One idea is to have plugin multi-charging points on (e.g.) every lamppost with some sort of 'smart negotiation' for payment. Difficult, yes, but not necessarily impossible. Another idea might be induction plates in the road, which if a parked car lowered a matching plate down to road level would actually be potentially quite efficient even without a plugin connection. Anyhow, there are potential solutions but they may need a lot of investment.

 

[furnessvale]

Not doable for freight.

Indeed, the NIC have recently suggested that all railfreight could be transferred to non polluting road HGVs to save the cost and disruption of further electrification!

 

[jagardner1984]

The thing governments fail to grasp and have done for many years is investment in infrastructure pays its way. In economic growth and additional taxes. How much tax revenue today is enabled by the electrification of the WCML and the ECML all those years ago, for example.

The real changes needed:

Dramatic changes to the tax system to promote home working (thus tackling this hideous uneven demand for rail services).

Dramatic changes to the tax system to essentially kill off domestic air (with notable exceptions for isolated communities). Accept that in doing so we will need dramatic growth in high speed rail capacity.

Dramatic changes to the way we account for rail spending. Basically stop using the word subsidy. We should Invest in rail services instead.

Dramatic changes to the way we tax motoring. The principle being the road network being entirely funded by its users. Abolish all fuel tax. Abolish all Vehicle Excise duty. Install a proper system of road pricing that targets the areas where we need people not to drive (for congestion, pollution or both). Accept it will never Be possible for all travel to be via public transport, but build large complexes for the charging of electric vehicles overnight and during the day, and link them to high quality rail links. The queue of vehicles into major cities every morning sitting next to a rail line should be a thing of the past. Develop a national integrated strategy for park and ride. Essentially, Mrs Smith who is 90 and drives her car once a week off peak to the shops, should being paying motoring tax in an order of magnitude to the lorry which is running 24/7 (ie she should pay almost nothing.).

The effect of proper road pricing on road freight would be seismic. Investigate methods of more intelligent, small scale rail freight to get consignments from one place to another (for example refrigerated or secure). Then a lower level of electric vehicle (van ?) to move a pallet or a roll cage from a hub to a city or surrounding area. For example, in the instance a supermarket is adjacent to a railway line, and so is the distribution hub, why are dozens of lorries arriving and departing daily.

The climate emergency might be a bit of a gimmick to attract attention / PR to a cause. But it’s the big thinking that is required to change the path society is on. Running a few miles of OHLE here and there to convert a few passenger trains is not what is required. Fundamental questions of how we manage transport in our country is what needs to be addressed.