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How much electrification would be need for Transpennine services to be pure electric ?

Nottingham59

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I'd be interested to see what batteries they are using for the German BEMU. I'd guess that if they are not using the top 20% it's an NMC type which is what most long range BEV cars use.

Power storage and transit vehicles are likely to use LFP types which have a higher cyclic life and also don't mind bring charged to 100% (at the cost of ultimate energy density). Though the other reason not to charge to 100% is that the charge rate is super slow for 90-100%, it's fine for a BEV where max range trips are rare, less good for a public transport vehicle.

Regarding range, I'll have a look in the IET specs they did have some other routes with expected energy usage, but I'm pretty sure the energy usages for all the InterCity routes were pretty similar with stops offsetting higher cruising speeds.

The other key bit about the ultimate potential for BEMUs is to look at what they are doing with cars, it now possible to put extreme levels of performance into mundane cars at minimal marginal cost. Our class800X train with it 2.2MWh battery (Around $250k at current prices) will be able to discharge that battery at 5-6C for a few minutes. Which means that our 250 tonne 5 car train could have 14,500-17,500 horsepower!

The Tesla Model S Plaid motor drive unit is 90kg for motor, inverter and gearbox, if we put 2 of them on every axle (like in the car) we'd have a matching 17,000bhp. Those drive units also cost in the region of $2500 so about $100k of drive units for the train or a pretty trivial price. (the arguments about relative duty cycle between the train and car also go out the window as this thing won't spend very long at high power) The reason they can do this is because, in a single year some of the larger EV manufacturers are turning out more traction motors than the whole rail industry has ever used!

So on out class 800x we would now have the capability to accelerate at the traction limit (say 1.3m/s/s) up to about 80mph and then on to 125mph in 50 seconds. Widely replicated I'd suggest this might do wonders for capacity and journey times. I shudder to think what the infrastructure costs of upgrading electrification to allow every train to put out 3-4 times the power output of a typical EMU, ergo I think the argument may well be that every EMU ends up being a BEMU because it allows higher performance on the same infrastructure and using components sourced from the rapidly expanding automotive supply chain means there is negligible cost for doing this.
If it's any interest, this is what i thought the specification should be for a network-wide regional express BEMU:
 
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AlastairFraser

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The ECML power supply upgrade has its own long-running thread in "Stations and Infrastructure":


The latest discussion is whether the plans for Marshall Meadows (immediately south of the Scottish Border) have been dropped.
Thank you, I wasn't sure if the information was easily available on the forum.
 

Technologist

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If it's any interest, this is what i thought the specification should be for a network-wide regional express BEMU:
Very interesting, I should say the key bit is that "range" is quite flexible in the context of BEMU as 125 miles at express train operation equates to more like 1000 miles on a plain flat track at a constant 40mph.

Regarding charging based on the calcs I've been doing charge rates need to be more like 2-4MW to allow working considerable distances off wire without requiring excessive stopping at terminal stations. The beauty of batteries though is that the discharge quicker than they charge. So if we are charging a 2MWh train battery we can discharge a 400KWh battery at 2.5MW and then charge it up at a few hundred KW using regular local 3 phase wiring. If we are doing that we might as well use 25KV ohle

The other things with BEMU is that purpose built ones should be a lot more aerodynamic. Looking at equations to estimate drag the nose shape does relatively little so we don't need Shinkansen esq noses (more like Aventra with couplings hidden) but we do need faired in bogies, retractable pantographs, fillers and fairings between carriages, flush doors and all air inlets using tiny holes and NACA ducts to feed them when running and then automatic blow in doors when stationary. Basically all trains as a minimum should be slippier than a Shinkansen or Velaro Nevo.

On the weight front transformers so 19th century and weigh literally tonnes per MW. Solid state transformers should save a few tonnes that can go back into the battery. The battery should be structural, bogies should be using new automotive techniques like thixsomolded magnesium in addition to the afformentioned off the shelf motors and power electronics. If carbon fibre is good enough for the Coventry light rail vehicle it's cheap enough to use on mainline trains too.

In short there's a lot that can be done to make a much better BEMU than the one I described earlier.
 

Bevan Price

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Does the energy consumption model include the effects of wind speed ? That can have a significant effect on resistance to motion of a train, and it can get quite windy across the Pennines.

Also, almost all batteries have a finite number of times that they can be recharged, and many gradually lose capacity when they get old. Can this affect the economics of battery train operation?
 

Technologist

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Does the energy consumption model include the effects of wind speed ? That can have a significant effect on resistance to motion of a train, and it can get quite windy across the Pennines.

Also, almost all batteries have a finite number of times that they can be recharged, and many gradually lose capacity when they get old. Can this affect the economics of battery train operation?
The model is not that sophisticated, I also don't know whether wind was included in the original power usage specs I pinched. I presume that it isn't as I would assume that eventually it would all cancel out.

I have factored at least 10% remaining capacity which would give some margin for extra energy usage. Also in an out and back you'd probably get some benefit of reduced energy usage on the return. Finally you could just increase some of you dwell times to take on some more energy if bad weather is predicted.

Also an actual purpose built BEMU is likely to have less drag than a class 800 even if it's in a headwind.

The batteries I have assumed are LFP types which can take in the region of 5000-10,000 deep discharges. Though obviously not every trip will include a full discharge, either way you are looking at the battery lasting more than typical periods between major refurbishments. The battery is likely to cost in the region of £250k so it's no biggie if it needs to come out then, that equates to about £70 per day per train so even with finance costs it's not going to impinge on ticket costs.

The other key points are that this is a very dynamic area. With battery life you aren't fighting physics to improve it so there isn't hard limits on how long cells can last for. The energy storage market also means that there won't be a point at which cell life isn't worth increasing and designers will go focus something else.
 

Nottingham59

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Regarding charging based on the calcs I've been doing charge rates need to be more like 2-4MW to allow working considerable distances off wire without requiring excessive stopping at terminal stations. The beauty of batteries though is that the discharge quicker than they charge.
Remember that if you're going to recover the kinetic energy of the train under normal braking, then the batteries will need to be able to accept charge at a rate equal to, or even higher than, the maximum rate of discharge used buring acceleration. This will be several Megawatts.

Stadler claim that their FLIRT Akku has a full recharge time of just 15 minutes under the wires.
 

The Ham

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Effectively there's three stages to reach 100% electric operation.

The second is to have wires serving all the lines on the timetables routes.

The first is in the way to that, to have enough wires to allow battery trains to run the services (so no more diesel use).

The third is too have enough wires so that all diversion routes can be run using battery trains (although, depending on routes, it could be that this is achievable before the other two).
 

Halifaxlad

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Effectively there's three stages to reach 100% electric operation.

The second is to have wires serving all the lines on the timetables routes.

The first is in the way to that, to have enough wires to allow battery trains to run the services (so no more diesel use).

The third is too have enough wires so that all diversion routes can be run using battery trains (although, depending on routes, it could be that this is achievable before the other two).

I think you have missed the whole point of this thread!
 

The Ham

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I think you have missed the whole point of this thread!

I understand the point of the thread, I was saying that different people would be potentially looking at each of those points and looking to answer those questions.

Whilst some would be saying the exact distance which would be needed to be running pure EMU's (which makes for a very short discussion), others have talked about how battery trains can run the services with limited extras wires (which extends the discussion further as it isn't a simple x miles answer).
 

Technologist

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Does the energy consumption model include the effects of wind speed ? That can have a significant effect on resistance to motion of a train, and it can get quite windy across the Pennines.

Also, almost all batteries have a finite number of times that they can be recharged, and many gradually lose capacity when they get old. Can this affect the economics of battery train operation?
The model is not that sophisticated, I also don't know whether wind was included in the original power usage specs I pinched. I presume that it isn't as I would assume that eventually it would all cancel out.

I have factored at least 10% remaining capacity which would give some margin for extra energy usage. Also in an out and back you'd probably get some benefit of reduced energy usage on the return. Finally you could just increase some of you dwell times to take on some more energy if bad weather is predicted.

Also an actual purpose built BEMU is likely to have less drag than a class 800 even if it's in a headwind.

The batteries I have assumed are LFP types which can take in the region of 5000-10,000 deep discharges. Though obviously not every trip will include a full discharge, either way you are looking at the battery lasting more than typical periods between major refurbishments. The battery is likely to cost in the region of £250k so it's no biggie if it needs to come out then, that equates to about £70 per day per train so even with finance costs it's not going to impinge on ticket costs.

The other key points are that this is a very dynamic area. With battery life you aren't fighting physics to improve it so there isn't hard limits on how long cells can last for. The energy storage market also means that there won't be a point at which cell life isn't worth increasing and designers will go focus something else.

Remember that if you're going to recover the kinetic energy of the train under normal braking, then the batteries will need to be able to accept charge at a rate equal to, or even higher than, the maximum rate of discharge used buring acceleration. This will be several Megawatts.

Stadler claim that their FLIRT Akku has a full recharge time of just 15 minutes under the wires.
I used to have a Tesla so yes I understand variable regen depending on charge!

My model isn't sophisticated enough to handle that at the moment. As I stated before I was using a class 800 as the basis of the model, the energy consumption figures for that were inclusive of regen braking.

As a ground up BEMU will probably do better from an energy efficiency perspective I am currently happy to assume that some loss of energy recovery will be acceptable when the battery is at high states of charge to deliver a similar range performance as in the model.

Does anyone have a typical deceleration profile for an approach to a station, I'll incorporate it in future runs?

My early figures indicate that once SOC get below ~60% multiple MW of regen are possible.

There are a few solutions I can think of to the issue. The technological ones are:

1: Fit a bigger battery rarely take it past 70% SOC.
2: Fit a super capacitor and use it to accelerate away from the station KERS (having done some maths on this current super capacitors have approx. 1/15th the capacity of an LFP battery, ergo they'd need to be 15 stops between charges to make this worth doing)
3: Bank on charge speeds increasing in general

Or none technically, adjust route timings, trade slower braking and/or longer dwell/charge times for faster acceleration. Have the schedules cognisant of SOC of BEMUs.

If we go full BEMU with 3-4x EMU power outputs then we'd be looking at getting minutes back on the schedule every time it pulls away from a station, which gets me back to the concept that I think eventually all intercity trains will end up being BEMU (or maybe have a super capacitor onboard) just for the extra performance without needing to vastly improve OHLE.
 
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