How much of a general decline in parliamentary standards are we experiencing?

[Darandio]

I'm being a bit hypothetical here because I don't know the exact details of what Owen Paterson did,

So you are calling out multiple forum members about piling on 'just because' it's the Tories but you didn't even bother to take a look at what he did?

 

[brad465]

Astonishing you don't go to prison for threatening to toss acid in someone's face and send nudes of the victim to their family.

Parliamentary standards aren't our only problem.

Plus, if she was in jail, she wouldn't be able to send her toxic, foul tweets either.

When you have to restrict who can respond to your tweets, you know you're in the wrong (this is what she's done with hers). Interestingly Labour's national campaign coordinator has not only confirmed she's been expelled from the party, but if she doesn't step down the party will push for a recall to force a by-election, which shows just how much the party knows she's in the wrong and needs to both acknowledge that and distance themselves from her, which they are doing.


There's now a third story today that fits in with this thread's subject, and that's confirmation that Lord Goldsmith allowed Johnson to stay at his Spanish home for free:

Boris Johnson stayed at Lord Goldsmith's Spanish home for free

Boris Johnson confirms he stayed at the Spanish home of Lord Goldsmith's family in October.

www.bbc.co.uk

Boris Johnson has confirmed he stayed for free at a holiday home owned by the family of Lord Zac Goldsmith - who received a peerage from the PM in 2019.
In a list of ministers' interests, it says the PM has "a longstanding personal friendship" with the family and "in that capacity" stayed at their place in southern Spain last month.
Downing Street had previously refused to confirm if the trip had taken place.
Labour said it was "more evidence of the sleaze engulfing this government".
"It's obvious to everyone that the prime minister is dishing out cushy jobs to his mate who pays for his luxury holidays," said the party's deputy leader Angela Rayner.
"Yet again Boris Johnson behaves like it's one rule for him and another for everyone else."

Lord Goldsmith is close friend of the prime minister's wife and gave her her first job in politics.
He lost his seat as an MP for Richmond Park in 2019, but retained his job as an environment minister after Mr Johnson appointed him to the House of Lords.
At the time, Labour condemned the appointment as "jobs for mates".

 

[DarloRich]

Astonishing you don't go to prison for threatening to toss acid in someone's face and send nudes of the victim to their family.

Agreed - she got of lightly imo.

If she stands she'll likely split the vote and hand the seat to the Tories

I had forgotten that Keith Vaz wants the seat back. Christ. Do you have to be a wrong un to be an MP for Leicester East?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So you are calling out multiple forum members about piling on 'just because' it's the Tories but you didn't even bother to take a look at what he did?

Of course I took a look at what he did - enough to (hopefully) get a sense of roughly what the broad accusations were. I even went to the trouble of quickly reading through the Hansard record of the debate to find out what the controversy was about and what justification people were giving for acting as they did. I rather suspect that's a lot more than most of the people doing the 'piling on' in this thread bothered to read (With the exception of @ainsworth74 whom I'm assuming read it because he quoted from it ). I just didn't spend hours studying the detailed documents that specify the exact charges and circumstances - hence my why I qualified that post.

 

[Acfb]

EDIT - deleted original post, sorry just seen Paterson is to resign so much of the original content is not relevant. I missed this latest development.

Even still, it has taken quite a bit of fuss to achieve this result. But other members of the hard-Brexiter 'in crowd' such as Priti Patel and Dominic Raab appear to have faced little or no consequencies for the controversies they have been involved in. I do get the impression that if you are a fundamentalist Brexiter and part of the 'Boris in crowd' you are likely to be treated more favourably than any other MP.





Even with the caveat that their majority there isn't amazing (as discussed in a previous post) I'd still say it would be extraordinary if somewhere in Leicester, a liberal and multi-cultural university city, could go Tory when the likes of Amersham and St Albans rejected them.

She should not stand, I agree. She should just resign gracefully. But given that party loyalty appears to count more than personality in your average voter (as seen by the rejection of two of the ex-MPs I have some admiration for - Grieve and Gauke - in the last election) I suspect people will choose the official Labour candidate. This will be the best way to vote, unlike the Grieve and Gauke constituencies which plumped for Rent-a-Tory Borisbots instead.

I'm not sure TBH. It was a Tory seat in 1983. The Tories also made inroads in 2019 with Hindu voters in certain Hindu heavy seats in 2019 over issues to do with Modi etc.

I could see a Batley and Spen type result and Galloway throwing his hat into the ring again and I could see it being almost as ugly as that by election.

 

[brad465]

I'm not sure TBH. It was a Tory seat in 1983. The Tories also made inroads in 2019 with Hindu voters in certain Hindu heavy seats in 2019 over issues to do with Modi etc.

I could see a Batley and Spen type result and Galloway throwing his hat into the ring again and I could see it being almost as ugly as that by election.

While I can see Galloway getting involved, I think his attempt at the Batley and Spen by-election actually helped the Labour party as he appeared to both scoop up votes split among leave parties in 2019 and stop too many Labour to Tory switches, and both Labour and the Tory vote shares dropped on the 2019 result. Labour could also use a line of attack on Galloway that he failed recently and was thus not effective. That said, no two seats are the same.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I could see a Batley and Spen type result and Galloway throwing his hat into the ring again and I could see it being almost as ugly as that by election.

That would not be good. Though to be honest, I can't see someone like George Galloway making much headway in a very rural and very conservative seat like North Shropshire. I suspect the bigger threat would be from Reform, if they decide to stand. Or a way out suggestion - if someone prominent decided to stand as an Independent Conservative pushing a strong anti-sleaze message (no idea who would do that though. One of the former MPs Boris had expelled in 2019, maybe? That's really pure speculation though). Even so, it's such a safe Tory seat that I'd be amazed if they lost it.

 

[DelW]

Oh you'd be surprised at what the human mind is capable of convincing itself of. I'm being a bit hypothetical here because I don't know the exact details of what Owen Paterson did, but imagine: Company pays you lots of money. Maybe it's a company in an industry that you feel does good work anyway so you already feel politically inclined to support them (in the same way many of us would feel naturally inclined to support companies that promote rail). Maybe that's partly why you took the job in the first place. Company treats you well, ergo you think it's a good company. You read their literature and believe it. They claim there's some safety issue that needs to come to the attention of the Government, and they seem to have a good, logical, case, so you get convinced that is actually correct. You therefore start thinking that it's imperative and completely in the public interest that you convince Government ministers of this safety issue - and you end up totally missing that, almost anyone outside of your situation is going to see, meeting with Government ministers to lobby for a company that is paying you lots of money, and draw a totally different conclusion. Probably requires some naivety on the part of the MP, but doesn't seem that unbelievable to me. Note that I'm not saying that's definitely what happened in this case, just it's the sort of thing that plausibly could have happened. Things like that have probably happened countless times (Of course that's partly why MPs are subject to strict rules to try to prevent this kind of lobbying).

From the BBC news website (scroll down the page):

Owen Paterson quits as MP over lobbying row 'nightmare'

The Tory MP is at the centre of a bitter row after he was found to have made "egregious" rule breaches.

www.bbc.co.uk

MPs are allowed to have these jobs, but are not allowed to be paid advocates - using their influence in Whitehall for the company's gain.
The committee concluded that Mr Paterson had breached this rule on paid advocacy by:

• Making three approaches to the Food Standards Agency relating to Randox and the testing of antibiotics in milk
• Making seven approaches to the Food Standards Agency relating to Lynn's Country Foods
• Making four approaches to ministers at the Department for International Development relating to Randox and blood testing technology

Mr Paterson was also found to have broken conduct rules by:

• Failing to declare his interest as a paid consultant to Lynn's Country Foods in four emails to officials at the Food Standards Agency
• Using his parliamentary office on 16 occasions for business meetings with his clients
• And in sending two letters relating to his business interests, on House of Commons headed notepaper

If he'd done this openly and publicly then I might accept your argument, but he evidently kept his reasons quiet.

 

[Sm5]

If he had accepted the suspension, he could have returned in time for the Christmas festivities and no one would have batted an eye-lid. Instead the extent of his misdemeanors have been spread across the media and the likes of us given the opportunity to express our views on his actions. Maybe the people of North Shropshire will elect someone who put them first not some £100k lobbying role, they deserve better.


If Johnson has promised him some role in government service then this will all come out again, front page a certainty. Private company ok, maybe Randox Labs need a chairman?

Until covid, I bet no one had heard of Randox.
post covid, nearly everyone trying to escape this island will have heard its name many times.
i’m sure they had a good year, and they will have a special corner in their building for him.

 

[Typhoon]

Until covid, I bet no one had heard of Randox.
post covid, nearly everyone trying to escape this island will have heard its name many times.
i’m sure they had a good year, and they will have a special corner in their building for him.

His days as a lobbyist must be over though. The minute Johnson did a U-turn he became persona-non-grata for all except certain backbenchers who closely share his views and have no ambition. Ministers daren't be seen within a mile of the man.

 

[Sm5]

His days as a lobbyist must be over though. The minute Johnson did a U-turn he became persona-non-grata for all except certain backbenchers who closely share his views and have no ambition. Ministers daren't be seen within a mile of the man.

Quite, so just meet in private instead.
No one who has enough support to get the vote he did, is without friends.
Thats why we have private members clubs afterall, many with front and rear exits.
You wont be seeing him penniless on the street thats for sure.

 

[Typhoon]

Quite, so just meet in private instead.
No one who has enough support to get the vote he did, is without friends.
Thats why we have private members clubs afterall, many with front and rear exits.
You wont be seeing him penniless on the street thats for sure.

Yes, but they need to be careful. Any sightings will be front page.

Penniless, certainly not, Randox will see to that. (There are other 'businesses' and rich individuals that will see him right.) Its not money that he will lose, it is influence.

 

[Busaholic]

Agreed - she got of lightly imo.



I had forgotten that Keith Vaz wants the seat back. Christ. Do you have to be a wrong un to be an MP for Leicester East?

What has Leicester done so wrong to have attracted such devious MPs over the years? You can add the evil Greville Janner to the list, plus the Tory self publicist Peter Bruinvels who was the party rentaquote specialist in the 1980s. If I wasn't sure what I thought about a subject, I just had to wait for Bruinvels or Ivan Lawrence to add their tuppenceworth and I'd be totally opposed to their bigotry (sorry, viewpoint.)

 

[Sm5]

Yes, but they need to be careful. Any sightings will be front page.

not for that long, old tories never die, but they do get forgotten / overtaken by new ones.

Thats the problem with the whole political establishment… long arms, long memories and long relationships. Its the fresh ones, who occasionally get elected, speak out and are true “of the people”.. trouble is they are just media impalas, dancing about for as long as the lions let them..

The political elite is a a concrete block, new faces wont get in, and you cant get the engrained dirt out, no matter which way you vote… its been stinking since Gladstone and Disraeli.

 

[alexjames10]

And yet vast numbers of people vote Tory at election after election. Or, to put it more accurately, even vaster numbers fail to vote against the Conservatives.

Its completely beyond me. Why do people who live in miserable economic circumstances, people who have little or no prospect of improving their lives, vote for the party that enriches the affluent and impoverishes the rest. It’s very illogical.

I appreciate that those in the top decile of net worth have a reason to vote Tory. I’m in that decile. I never have and never will vote for that bunch of thieves.

 

[brad465]

Discussions are currently occurring it seems regarding a repeat of Tatton 1997 for Owen Paterson's seat:

Owen Paterson: Labour rules out cross-party by-election candidate

Lib Dems also say they will stand in the by-election to replace Owen Paterson who quit amid a lobbying row.

www.bbc.co.uk

Labour, the Lib Dems and the Green Party are discussing standing aside and backing an independent "anti-sleaze" candidate in the by-election prompted by Tory MP Owen Paterson's resignation.
They are all said to be open to the proposal for the seat of North Shropshire, which is usually an ultra-safe one for the Conservatives.
Mr Paterson quit on Thursday amid a row over his breaking of MPs' rules.
No date has yet been set for the resulting by-election.
Opposition parties are looking back at the contest for the seat of Tatton, Cheshire, at the 1997 general election, when former BBC journalist Martin Bell took on - and defeated - Conservative incumbent Neil Hamilton.
Wearing a white suit, he campaigned as an independent on an "anti-sleaze" ticket, with the other major parties not putting up a candidate.

No final decision has been taken regarding the North Shropshire by-election, but a Labour source told the BBC a similar approach would be a "sensible idea".
However, one Lib Dem source raised a note of caution, saying: "The technicalities of having an independent candidate that opposition parties get behind are frankly a complete nightmare."
Mr Paterson has held North Shropshire since 1997, taking 62.7% of the vote at the 2019 general election, with Labour a distant second.
The Commons Standards Committee concluded last week that the former cabinet minister had misused his position as an MP to benefit two firms he worked for, after a damning report on his behaviour by standards commissioner Kathryn Stone.
It recommended he be suspended from the Commons for 30 sitting days, which could have prompted a by-election.
But on Wednesday, the government ordered its MPs to vote for an amendment to halt Mr Paterson's case and to rejig the standards system.

 

[Gloster]

They should be a bit careful about this as it can easily look like political opportunism, which it is to an extent. In Tatton, if I remember correctly, Martin Bell emerged as the knight in shining armour candidate, and Labour and the Lib Dems then withdrew their candidates. There was also the fact that Neil Hamilton was standing at the election, whereas here it looks as if Paterson isn’t going to.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They should be a bit careful about this as it can easily look like political opportunism, which it is to an extent. In Tatton, if I remember correctly, Martin Bell emerged as the knight in shining armour candidate, and Labour and the Lib Dems then withdrew their candidates. There was also the fact that Neil Hamilton was standing at the election, whereas here it looks as if Paterson isn’t going to.

A typical politician stitch-up here, done not for the benefit of the electorate who may have wished to cast their vote for the party of their own choosing, but for a totally different reason.

 

[Busaholic]

They should be a bit careful about this as it can easily look like political opportunism, which it is to an extent. In Tatton, if I remember correctly, Martin Bell emerged as the knight in shining armour candidate, and Labour and the Lib Dems then withdrew their candidates. There was also the fact that Neil Hamilton was standing at the election, whereas here it looks as if Paterson isn’t going to.

It's also difficult to know who might stand as a credible candidate. Can you imagine a BBC correspondent being widely acceptable now?! Anyone chosen would be bombarded with false stories, have every aspect of their personal life scrutinised and everything they've ever opined on social media gone through with a fine toothcomb. Even Mother Teresa wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[Cowley]

It's also difficult to know who might stand as a credible candidate. Can you imagine a BBC correspondent being widely acceptable now?! Anyone chosen would be bombarded with false stories, have every aspect of their personal life scrutinised and everything they've ever opined on social media gone through with a fine toothcomb. Even Mother Teresa wouldn't stand a chance.

I think that’s the issue.
We know that these people are absolutely awful and somehow we just accept it because it goes with the territory that they roam in.
Anyone else though is held to a higher standard for some reason and they don’t get any form of ‘Get out of jail free’ card when they make mistakes.
This is a major problem in our political system in my opinion.

 

[Typhoon]

Discussions are currently occurring it seems regarding a repeat of Tatton 1997 for Owen Paterson's seat:

Owen Paterson: Labour rules out cross-party by-election candidate

Lib Dems also say they will stand in the by-election to replace Owen Paterson who quit amid a lobbying row.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC now reporting

The Labour Party will put up a candidate in the by-election prompted by the resignation of Conservative MP Owen Paterson.

Owen Paterson: Labour will contest North Shropshire by-election - BBC News

Probably the right move. No obvious 'Martin Bell' candidate.

not for that long, old tories never die, but they do get forgotten / overtaken by new ones.

Neil Hamilton had a long shelf life! (Admittedly, he is a self publicist.) 'overtaken by new ones' - yes, any MP who acted similarly will be in the firing line. Cash for questions brought down Graham Riddick, Tim Smith and David Tredinnick as well as Hamilton.

 

[Sm5]

I think that’s the issue.
We know that these people are absolutely awful and somehow we just accept it because it goes with the territory that they roam in.
Anyone else though is held to a higher standard for some reason and they don’t get any form of ‘Get out of jail free’ card when they make mistakes.
This is a major problem in our political system in my opinion.

Sadly its wider than politicians.
it just goes to show there are very few saints amongst us.
its only when elected do we find out that they arent saints either because non of us are.
its a societal thing, we expect too much as everyone is bent in some shape or other, being an MP just acts as a mirror of society.

 

[DarloRich]

Probably the right move. No obvious 'Martin Bell' candidate.

There is no "Mr Clean" option when the sullied former MP is not standing.

 

[nw1]

From the BBC news website (scroll down the page):

Owen Paterson quits as MP over lobbying row 'nightmare'

The Tory MP is at the centre of a bitter row after he was found to have made "egregious" rule breaches.

www.bbc.co.uk

If he'd done this openly and publicly then I might accept your argument, but he evidently kept his reasons quiet.

I hope he's enjoying his new role as the Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead.

They should be a bit careful about this as it can easily look like political opportunism, which it is to an extent. In Tatton, if I remember correctly, Martin Bell emerged as the knight in shining armour candidate, and Labour and the Lib Dems then withdrew their candidates. There was also the fact that Neil Hamilton was standing at the election, whereas here it looks as if Paterson isn’t going to.

The trouble with somewhere like north Shropshire is it's rural farming country and ultra-conservative so I suspect that no-one other than the Tories would ever get in. Politically, it's likely to be like the Kansas of the UK. Tatton, on the other hand, is a bit more cosmopolitan being Manchester commuter country. You can understand them electing a non-Tory (but, due to the wealth of the area, you can also understand them electing Osborne).

If there was a realistic chance of an anti-sleaze candidate winning, fine - maybe if it was Paterson vs the anti-sleaze candidate then the latter could win. But I suspect the Tories will parachute in some bland, inoffensive but mindlessly-loyal-to-'Boris' candidate.

Now if Paterson's neighbour Kawczynski, perhaps the biggest hypocrite in British politics, could do us all a favour and belatedly resign over his actions in 2019 (google it), a non-Tory candidate would have a realistic chance of winning in that part of the country.

Take a look at pictures of Sir Alan B'Stard MP (played by the late Rik Mayall) and imagine him a little older and you get Owen Paterson. So prescient!

I've seen comparisons of Raab and B'Stard, who I think are supposed to be about the same age.

I'm not sure TBH. It was a Tory seat in 1983. The Tories also made inroads in 2019 with Hindu voters in certain Hindu heavy seats in 2019 over issues to do with Modi etc.

Mind you, the political map was very different in 1983 - the Tories would have had no chance in places like Grimsby or Hartlepool in those days, as their residents (sensibly IMO) blamed them for their woes.

But the dislike of the Tories amongst the more liberal, university-town electorate had not developed by 1983. Even places like Oxford and Cambridge were Tory at that time, from what I gather.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I hope he's enjoying his new role as the Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead.

Probably miffed that there's no remuneration

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably miffed that there's no remuneration

Perhaps he will be pleased if that be the case, as there can be no financial sleaze allegations made.

 

[brad465]

The Times are reporting a certain red wall Tory MP by the name of Christian Wakeford dropped the c-bomb on Owen Paterson:

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

1. Red wall to Paterson: ‘You’re a c***’
It can occasionally be difficult to get a proper measure of the anger of Conservative MPs at a time of political crisis.

That is partly because they are never shy of deploying hyperbole in place of ordinary language, particularly if a lobby journalist is at the other end of the phone. Nor, frankly, do many of them need a substantial excuse to brief against their own government.

Yet the sheer fury that has taken hold of Boris Johnson’s parliamentary party in the days since they were forced to vote to save Owen Paterson — in most cases against their better judgment — should not be underestimated.

In that respect, one astonishing vignette I heard from the division lobbies says more than almost any amount of copy otherwise could.

In the hours after MPs narrowly voted to gut the standards regime, they voted again on the nuclear energy bill. As it happens, they were Paterson’s final votes as a member of the Commons.

As he walked through the lobby with colleagues who had spent much of the preceding afternoon hearing the case for his defence advanced by both himself and No 10 — and, of course, of the loss of his wife — he was approached by Christian Wakeford, the Tory MP for Bury South.

Confined to crutches, he hobbled up to Paterson in a rage. In full view of colleagues — several of whom relayed this story to me and Times political reporter George Grylls yesterday — he stood before him and called him “a c***”.

He did not stay to hear the reply. No wonder Paterson wrote of the “cruelty” of politics in his resignation statement yesterday. The level of vitriol festering on his own side is almost unbelievable.

But could there be any starker illustration of how this case has divided the Conservative Party? Infantry versus officer class. Young versus old. The marginal versus the safe. Red wall versus the shires.

MPs like Wakeford — majority 402 — do not understand why they have been hung out to dry for Paterson’s sake by Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chief whip Mark Spencer or, ultimately, Boris Johnson.

In his column this morning James Forsyth quotes a cabinet minister who says, rightly: “We saw two parties today. The 2017 and 2019 intakes who didn’t understand why they were being asked to vote for this, and the pre-2010 intakes who were more taken with the idea of protecting one of their own.”

It is not immediately clear whether the PM knows how to put them back together again. Or, frankly, whether he will be able to do so at all.

 

[nw1]

The Times are reporting a certain red wall Tory MP by the name of Christian Wakeford dropped the c-bomb on Owen Paterson:

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

(commenting on the 2019 intake being less likely to support Paterson according to the article)

Though I'd have expected the 2019 intake, who I perceive as obedient Borisbots and were elected on a promise to push the Boris Deal through, to be more likely to follow their dear lord and master than the perhaps more independent-minded older Tory MPs who served under more reasonable leaders.

 

[DarloRich]

Though I'd have expected the 2019 intake, who I perceive as obedient Borisbots

At some point self preservation kicks in. Being whipped to support a stich up to save a bent MP might be one of those moments.

 

[ainsworth74]

At some point self preservation kicks in. Being whipped to support a stich up to save a bent MP might be one of those moments.

Yes I think that's the interesting thing. The 2019 intake have, understandably having ridden to power on Boris' coattails, been perhaps his most loyal phalanx of votes in the Commons. But how many more times can he lead them up to the top of the hill and then run away leaving them to pick up the pieces with their mailbags full of angry constituents before they decide that whilst they'll be forever grateful for helping them get elected it's perhaps time "we went in a different direction, sorry Boris..."?

I don't know the answer to that question but I do think it might not take very many more such episodes.