How rigid are your principles?

[EM2]

You may have read that West Ham United donated £12,500 to the Conservative Party in January. This is not the owners donating in their capacity as individuals, but the company of West Ham United itself.
You may also be aware through my postings that I am a supporter of West Ham United and not of the Conservative Party.

Over the last few years, I've not given any business to companies whose conduct I disagree with when I've found out about it, whether that's avoiding tax by using various means, donating or funding causes that I don't agree with or cutting perks for their staff with the excuse of the new living wage.
But I've always had an alternative. Instead of going to Starbucks, I can go to an independent. Instead of buying Warburton's bread (who also donate to the Conservatives), I can buy Co-Op.
As it happens, I don't give a lot of money to West Ham, although I have supported them for thirty-six years. I can't afford to go to matches that often, and I work a lot of match days so couldn't go anyway.
It's still a dilemma though. Maybe it'll be a case of 'support the team, not the regime' but can I do that knowing our new striker has been funded by the same people who have funded the Conservatives? I really don't know.

What are your thoughts? Are your principles absolutely firm? Do you have some flexibility, some variation in your moral compass?

 

[Busaholic]

You may have read that West Ham United donated £12,500 to the Conservative Party in January. This is not the owners donating in their capacity as individuals, but the company of West Ham United itself.
You may also be aware through my postings that I am a supporter of West Ham United and not of the Conservative Party.

Over the last few years, I've not given any business to companies whose conduct I disagree with when I've found out about it, whether that's avoiding tax by using various means, donating or funding causes that I don't agree with or cutting perks for their staff with the excuse of the new living wage.
But I've always had an alternative. Instead of going to Starbucks, I can go to an independent. Instead of buying Warburton's bread (who also donate to the Conservatives), I can buy Co-Op.
As it happens, I don't give a lot of money to West Ham, although I have supported them for thirty-six years. I can't afford to go to matches that often, and I work a lot of match days so couldn't go anyway.
It's still a dilemma though. Maybe it'll be a case of 'support the team, not the regime' but can I do that knowing our new striker has been funded by the same people who have funded the Conservatives? I really don't know.

What are your thoughts? Are your principles absolutely firm? Do you have some flexibility, some variation in your moral compass?

I think you should stick to your principles, if West Ham United are close to your heart. You might wonder why West Ham are donating what is, in effect, a paltry sum when the potential for alienating a proportion of their fans is substantial. It just goes to show how out of touch with ordinary people those in charge of top football in this country are. Just what are they trying to achieve? Karren Brady, someone I've never rated on any level, must have had an influence, at least.

 

[306024]

As a fellow Hammers supporter I now share your dilemma.

The grain for Warburtons bread comes from a nearby maltings so I support the local economy by buying their bread too. Before your post I had no idea I was a victim of this double whammy.

Fortunately I'm not principled enough to stop either form of enjoyment. Having paid the political levy to the Labour Party through my trade union membership over the years I must have donated to both sides I guess.

My only principle is that Richard Branson gives me more money (admittedly only in the form of a free coffee) than I give to him through his various businesses

 

[NoMorePacers]

Depends on how close you are to West Ham, and how much you hate the Tories. Still, shows that the owners of football and it's club are distancing themselves from the ordinary fans.

 

[Bevan Price]

Personally, I don't think that any company should be allowed to give money to any political party or organisation. The directors would of course be free to make personal donations from their own funds.

As for principles - I decline to do anything that would knowingly contribute some of my funds to the M*****h family. Once, I even refused the accept a free copy of one of their newspapers - although personally I think describing some of the contents as "news" is a bit of a misnomer.

 

[Senex]

Personally, I don't think that any company should be allowed to give money to any political party or organisation. The directors would of course be free to make personal donations from their own funds.

I agree, but would go further and also prevent business associations (right) and trade unions (left) from donating.

As to EM2's dilemma, if I were a strong supporter of a football club like West Ham and got considerable pleasure from their activities, then I should not cut off my nose to spite my face over the matter of their political donations, however much I disliked them. I think there has to be some pragmatism in life (and that keeping one's principles too pure can be somewhat dangerous and also rather boring).

 

[Aldaniti]

I'd rather not give Mr Murdoch my money either, but the only newspaper I buy - and would buy - is The Times and The Sunday Times. I try to be principled in life, I certainly go out of my way to buy products which have not involved testing on, or the mistreatment of animals, and I buy organic food, not only because of its more natural state, but because - I hope - the animals have a better life.

My principles have some fun on the High Steet.... I avoid WH Smith at the moment because of lack of staff and excessive queues at tills, and Boots for much the same reason. M&S food is nice, but I'm getting fed up with 'have you swiped your Sparks card' lark, and again, excessive queues in my local food hall. I used to boycott Tesco, but they don't have queues these days, and their points are actually worth something, so I've lifted that particular boycott. I would never in a million years cross the threshold of a Dixons/Currys/Carphone warehouse store, purely because of their policy of trying to flog over-priced extended warranties as much as the products themselves. Anything computer or appliance related and I head for John Lewis in Liverpool, where I don't feel as if the sales staff are constantly going through my pockets.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You may have read that West Ham United donated £12,500 to the Conservative Party in January. This is not the owners donating in their capacity as individuals, but the company of West Ham United itself.
You may also be aware through my postings that I am a supporter of West Ham United and not of the Conservative Party.

As I recently said on another thread, the RMT leadership took the decision to send a donation from their union membership coffers to the Scottish Socialist Party at the time of a General Election but how many of the RMT membership are in no way affiliated to that political party.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

M&S food is nice, but I'm getting fed up with 'have you swiped your Sparks card' lark......

When Marks and Spencer first launched their "Sparks" card, the young people in the store were only concerned with signing up as many people as possible without fully explaining the card to anyone. Many people thought it was like a Nectar card where accumulated points could then be offset against purchases.

No such thing. All it entailed was the more accumulated points you built up, you could "unlock" special offers....on items that you had no interest in whatsoever.

I have had personal discussions with managers in six of their stores, all of who freely admitted that many people were dissatisfied with the card and that the company, being forcibly made aware of this, were hoping to make changes to the card usage.

 

[Aldaniti]

As I recently said on another thread, the RMT leadership took the decision to send a donation from their union membership coffers to the Scottish Socialist Party at the time of a General Election but how many of the RMT membership are in no way affiliated to that political party.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


When Marks and Spencer first launched their "Sparks" card, the young people in the store were only concerned with signing up as many people as possible without fully explaining the card to anyone. Many people thought it was like a Nectar card where accumulated points could then be offset against purchases.

No such thing. All it entailed was the more accumulated points you built up, you could "unlock" special offers....on items that you had no interest in whatsoever.

I have had personal discussions with managers in six of their stores, all of who freely admitted that many people were dissatisfied with the card and that the company, being forcibly made aware of this, were hoping to make changes to the card usage.

Yes, that coincides exactly with what I hear about it. I rejected the offer of a Sparks card when I was told that one of the main 'benefits' was that you would be allowed to buy non-food sale items a day before everyone else! Sometimes these retailers do take us for fools.

 

[ComUtoR]

It depends on how rigid your principles are and how you apply them.

I'm a union supporter but I'd never vote Labour. No way in hell.

My footie team has a Labour MP sitting on its board ! But it doesn't exclude me from supporting my team. I support my team but if I decided to not support them based on what individual views they held I doubt I'd support any football team.

Money is a difficult thing to base any core principle on. It's almost impossible to track. How many West Ham supporters are members of the BNP ? How many Starbucks employees are West Ham fans ? Either way the Club is receiving an income from a source that most likely you wouldn't agree with.

West Ham undoubtedly pays its players and how many of those vote conservative or paid speeches, or party dinners, charity balls, etc etc. ?

What about the nice new stadium they have ? Would you say that has certain political motivation behind it ?

 

[Senex]

IM&S food is nice, but I'm getting fed up with 'have you swiped your Sparks card' lark, .....

Delighted that there's someone else who gets as fed up with this as I do!!!

 

[EM2]

Money is a difficult thing to base any core principle on. It's almost impossible to track. How many West Ham supporters are members of the BNP ? How many Starbucks employees are West Ham fans ? Either way the Club is receiving an income from a source that most likely you wouldn't agree with.

West Ham undoubtedly pays its players and how many of those vote conservative or paid speeches, or party dinners, charity balls, etc etc. ?

What about the nice new stadium they have ? Would you say that has certain political motivation behind it ?

It isn't about money per se, it's about ethics. I personally don't think Starbucks have any, and I think that the Conservative Party have very few (and that is not an argument for this thread). So, can I support a company (because that is what West Ham United is) that contributes to that?
On reflection, my connection to West Ham United has been part of my life than my knowing what the Conservative Party do, so I'm leaning towards that being the overriding factor. But still not sure...

As for the stadium, that's a different argument, but no, I don't think there's any political motivation there. West Ham offered to buy the stadium outright, pretty much as soon as the Olympic bid was announced, when the Mayor and Government were both Labour. That was refused, so they went through the bidding process the same as everyone else.

 

[Aldaniti]

Delighted that there's someone else who gets as fed up with this as I do!!!

Me too! The last time I heard it I told the machine to bugger off - the woman next to me laughed too!

 

[Phil.]

So we shouldn't buy any Japanese products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any German products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any Chinese products because of their human rights records.
We shouldn't be fuelling our vehicles and trains because it's highly likely that the crude oil that the fuel was refined from came from Saudi Arabia and their human rights record is appalling.
We shouldn't buy any products from Malasia as they keep destroying the jungle to plant palm oils.
We shouldn't buy any products from India because their coal fired power stations are destroying the atmosphere.
Where do you stop. Ethics? - get a grip! £12,500 donation to the Conservative party. Ye Gods, how much money do various luvvies in Islington/Hampstead la-la land sub the Labour party.

 

[NoMorePacers]

So we shouldn't buy any Japanese products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any German products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any Chinese products because of their human rights records.
We shouldn't be fuelling our vehicles and trains because it's highly likely that the crude oil that the fuel was refined from came from Saudi Arabia and their human rights record is appalling.
We shouldn't buy any products from Malasia as they keep destroying the jungle to plant palm oils.
We shouldn't buy any products from India because their coal fired power stations are destroying the atmosphere.
Where do you stop. Ethics? - get a grip! £12,500 donation to the Conservative party. Ye Gods, how much money do various luvvies in Islington/Hampstead la-la land sub the Labour party.

That's overreacting massively. In the cases of Japan and Germany, the war crimes were committed under fascist regimes, which have been non-existent for 70 years, and have changed since World War II. Saudi Arabia's human rights situation is improving, and the rest are ridiculous. Your exuberant speech is historically, politically, and sensically incorrect.

 

[EM2]

So we shouldn't buy any Japanese products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any German products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any Chinese products because of their human rights records.
We shouldn't be fuelling our vehicles and trains because it's highly likely that the crude oil that the fuel was refined from came from Saudi Arabia and their human rights record is appalling.
We shouldn't buy any products from Malasia as they keep destroying the jungle to plant palm oils.
We shouldn't buy any products from India because their coal fired power stations are destroying the atmosphere.
Where do you stop. Ethics? - get a grip! £12,500 donation to the Conservative party. Ye Gods, how much money do various luvvies in Islington/Hampstead la-la land sub the Labour party.

If there are Japanese, German or Chinese companies that I know to be complicit in those crimes, then yes, I'd agree. As an example, Hugo Boss made uniforms for the Nazis (including the SS) so I don't spend money with them. I'd certainly think twice about buying from Mitsubishi.
I try not to buy products that use palm oil that isn't sustainably farmed.
And as for 'how much money do various luvvies in Islington/Hampstead la-la land sub the Labour party', that is their right as individuals, as it is anyone's right as an individual to donate to any political party that they wish to.

 

[Minilad]

So we shouldn't buy any Japanese products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any German products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any Chinese products because of their human rights records.
We shouldn't be fuelling our vehicles and trains because it's highly likely that the crude oil that the fuel was refined from came from Saudi Arabia and their human rights record is appalling.
We shouldn't buy any products from Malasia as they keep destroying the jungle to plant palm oils.
We shouldn't buy any products from India because their coal fired power stations are destroying the atmosphere.
Where do you stop. Ethics? - get a grip! £12,500 donation to the Conservative party. Ye Gods, how much money do various luvvies in Islington/Hampstead la-la land sub the Labour party.

What about all the bad stuff Britain has done? Should we not buy anything British? Or is that different

 

[EM2]

What about all the bad stuff Britain has done? Should we not buy anything British? Or is that different

Again, if the companies concerned have been involved in practices that I do not agree with, then I don't do business with them.

 

[Minilad]

Again, if the companies concerned have been involved in practices that I do not agree with, then I don't do business with them.

Sorry. I wasn't replying to you. Just the post by Phil.
If you feel principled enough to do that then fair play to you. But where do you draw the line. I'm sure a lot of multinationals have got some dirt to some degree on them. We can't know everything that goes on.
But I agree there is a big difference between an individual making a donation and a company doing the same

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I always take time to think things through to check my principles are valid and fair. I certainly don't want to help the Tory party in any way, I won't be buying Warburtons again after reading the first post.

Morrisons are boycotted by me at the moment.
They changed the "Create you own pizza" offer, it was 2 for £4, but last month it changed to £2.60 each (which was the original price), but no mulitbuy.
Fair enough? No, on top of that they now claim that cheese is counted as a topping so in effect a quarter of the topping choices are gone without paying extra (50p a topping), so it would cost me £6.20 for the same purchase as before.
To add further insult they have added "New and Improved" signs to it which is a total lie, and after I asked for them to please revert it, their solution was to send me a £1 voucher. They have lost a long time customer now.
"Disappointment, Morrisons Makes It"

I usually don't care which shop I use unless it's been associated with tax evasion/slavery/overly expensive etc.

 

[Phil.]

What about all the bad stuff Britain has done? Should we not buy anything British? Or is that different

No difference whatsoever. My point is that if you're not going to buy something because of ethics you'll be buying virtually nothing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If there are Japanese, German or Chinese companies that I know to be complicit in those crimes, then yes, I'd agree. As an example, Hugo Boss made uniforms for the Nazis (including the SS) so I don't spend money with them. I'd certainly think twice about buying from Mitsubishi.
I try not to buy products that use palm oil that isn't sustainably farmed.
And as for 'how much money do various luvvies in Islington/Hampstead la-la land sub the Labour party', that is their right as individuals, as it is anyone's right as an individual to donate to any political party that they wish to.

Well that's just the reply I'd expect. There is no sustainable way to farm oil palms if you think there is you're in the dreamland that I suspect youd be in. It's about as accurate as Eddie Stobart trucks with "sustainable transport" writ large upon them. What the hell is sustainable transport?

 

[EM2]

Well that's just the reply I'd expect. There is no sustainable way to farm oil palms if you think there is you're in the dreamland that I suspect youd be in. It's about as accurate as Eddie Stobart trucks with "sustainable transport" writ large upon them. What the hell is sustainable transport?

The WWF seems to disagree: http://www.wwf.org.au/our_work/savi..._wwf_is_doing/certified_sustainable_palm_oil/

Certified sustainable palm oil (CSPO) is palm oil that has been grown on a plantation that has been managed and certified according to the principles and criteria of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO).

This means the plantation was established on land that did not contain significant biodiversity, wildlife habitat or other environmental values, and meets the highest environmental, social and economic standards as set out by the RSPO.

WWF believes that encouraging greater uptake of CSPO is the best way to go about halting the environmental and social impacts of unsustainable palm oil production. The good news is that the amount of CSPO available to buyers is increasing.

In 2013, 15% of the world’s palm oil had been certified as sustainable, up from 10% in 2011. This is the equivalent of more than 8 million tonnes grown on certified plantations, covering 2.4 million hectares.

While supply of CSPO is increasing, significant challenges remain. In 2012, only 52% of CSPO was sold as certified product, which has frustrated some producers who have committed to sustainability, largely in response to concerns from consumer markets, but are not always seeing demand for their certified product from those same markets.

Growers that are making the effort to implement the RSPO’s standards, which includes action on ensuring traceability, minimizing the use of hazardous chemicals and reducing greenhouse gas emissions, need to be rewarded for doing so.

WWF is urging retailers and manufacturers to use the data available from the RSPO to start buying from the leaders rather than the laggards. By doing so, they will be sending a sustainability signal that will affect the whole supply chain and help halt the devastating consequences of unsustainable palm oil production.

 

[ComUtoR]

It isn't about money per se, it's about ethics.

(...)

So, can I support a company (because that is what West Ham United is) that contributes to that?

But even without the donation they are contributing in some way or another. What if they hadn't made the donation but still espoused Conservative principles ?

I'd also be concerned with the funds they received as well as the funds they donate. You are making a conscious decision to separate the money they spend and the money they receive. Ethically I'd say its worse to receive money from a distasteful source. If your new sponsor was Starbucks would you then still support the team ?

Directly or indirectly money goes to and from the Conservatives. I think because this is a public donation you see it as direct support of the Conservatives. I understand the dilemma but drawing a line between a direct and indirect donations is a way to circumvent your principles.

As I say, my team have a Labour MP on their board. IF I was ethically against Labour then I don't think I'd have a leg to stand on when supporting the team.

How do the Board of West Ham vote ? Are they members of any political parties ?

 

[EM2]

But even without the donation they are contributing in some way or another. What if they hadn't made the donation but still espoused Conservative principles ?

I can't envisage a scenario where the club as a whole (rather than individuals concerned) would espouse Conservative principles, but if it were to happen, yes I'd have similar concerns.

I'd also be concerned with the funds they received as well as the funds they donate. You are making a conscious decision to separate the money they spend and the money they receive. Ethically I'd say its worse to receive money from a distasteful source. If your new sponsor was Starbucks would you then still support the team ?

I would have concerns, yes. And I would reconsider my support.
I can't know what every single club member or sponsor does, I imagine some have views or principles that I might disagree with. But it is their right as individuals to spend their money how they wish. If I discover that those companies that do sponsor the club in various forms conduct themselves in a manner that I disagree with, I would boycott them, and again reconsider my support.

Directly or indirectly money goes to and from the Conservatives. I think because this is a public donation you see it as direct support of the Conservatives. I understand the dilemma but drawing a line between a direct and indirect donations is a way to circumvent your principles.

As I say, my team have a Labour MP on their board. IF I was ethically against Labour then I don't think I'd have a leg to stand on when supporting the team.

How do the Board of West Ham vote ? Are they members of any political parties ?

I don't care how they vote. Again, that is their right as individuals. But this is a donation made by the club, that was not agreed to by the membership of the club, and that many members do not agree with.

 

[ComUtoR]

I can understand why there is separation between "club" and "individual" but its a very very thin line.

The way in which Mike Ashley runs Sports Direct is morally reprehensible and he owns Newcastle United. It would be hard to separate Mike Ashley from either entity and by supporting one, you would be supporting the other.

I would say that by supporting West Ham you are supporting David & David Should you separate out the "Club" from the funds it has received from money made in the Porn industry ?

People are very quick to make a distinction and compromise their principles. It's like a vegetarian wearing leather shoes or using the plethora of plastic we rely on as well as cars, batteries, mobile phones and god know how much other stuff causes the death of animals.

I remember finding out years ago that whilst some products are not tested on animals. The final product is not tested but some ingredients may have been tested on animals :/ Its a thin line but people are prepared to make a compromise in their beliefs.

I would say that what individuals do is just as important, otherwise its just another compromise.

 

[Railops]

How do the Board of West Ham vote ? Are they members of any political parties ?

Karen Brady is a Tory life Peer.
David Gold and David Sullivan both regularly attend fund raising events and are donors to the Conservatives I have no idea if they're actually Tory members or not but they're not Labour supporters.

 

[anme]

So we shouldn't buy any Japanese products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any German products because of the various war crimes that they committed.
We shouldn't buy any Chinese products because of their human rights records.
We shouldn't be fuelling our vehicles and trains because it's highly likely that the crude oil that the fuel was refined from came from Saudi Arabia and their human rights record is appalling.
We shouldn't buy any products from Malasia as they keep destroying the jungle to plant palm oils.
We shouldn't buy any products from India because their coal fired power stations are destroying the atmosphere.
Where do you stop. Ethics? - get a grip! £12,500 donation to the Conservative party. Ye Gods, how much money do various luvvies in Islington/Hampstead la-la land sub the Labour party.

You might like to check out the British Empire too.

There are lots of football clubs in London. Why not switch to one of the others?

 

[Railops]

You may have read that West Ham United donated £12,500 to the Conservative Party in January. This is not the owners donating in their capacity as individuals, but the company of West Ham United itself.
You may also be aware through my postings that I am a supporter of West Ham United and not of the Conservative Party.

Over the last few years, I've not given any business to companies whose conduct I disagree with when I've found out about it, whether that's avoiding tax by using various means, donating or funding causes that I don't agree with or cutting perks for their staff with the excuse of the new living wage.
But I've always had an alternative. Instead of going to Starbucks, I can go to an independent. Instead of buying Warburton's bread (who also donate to the Conservatives), I can buy Co-Op.
As it happens, I don't give a lot of money to West Ham, although I have supported them for thirty-six years. I can't afford to go to matches that often, and I work a lot of match days so couldn't go anyway.
It's still a dilemma though. Maybe it'll be a case of 'support the team, not the regime' but can I do that knowing our new striker has been funded by the same people who have funded the Conservatives? I really don't know.

What are your thoughts? Are your principles absolutely firm? Do you have some flexibility, some variation in your moral compass?

Nokia was recently named as the only mobile phone maker that paid a living wage and used few child workers.
Microsoft/Apple/Samsung/LG/Hitachi/Panasonic/IBM/ to name just a few all employ child labour some in terrible conditions so unless you've made your own laptop or phone or pc from home made components you are helping to keep child exploitation alive and kicking.

If you really had strong principles you wouldn't actually buy hardly anything as most consumer products come from the far East where child exploitation and very low wages are just a way of life.
I know that virtually everything I buy is made this way and have accepted it as an unfortunate fact of life.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You might like to check out the British Empire too.

There are lots of football clubs in London. Why not switch to one of the others?

Well there's the problem- round here, the only thing considered more morally reprehensible than supporting the Conservative Party or crossing a picket line is for a football supporter to switch teams!

 

[507021]

You may have read that West Ham United donated £12,500 to the Conservative Party in January. This is not the owners donating in their capacity as individuals, but the company of West Ham United itself.
You may also be aware through my postings that I am a supporter of West Ham United and not of the Conservative Party.

Over the last few years, I've not given any business to companies whose conduct I disagree with when I've found out about it, whether that's avoiding tax by using various means, donating or funding causes that I don't agree with or cutting perks for their staff with the excuse of the new living wage.
But I've always had an alternative. Instead of going to Starbucks, I can go to an independent. Instead of buying Warburton's bread (who also donate to the Conservatives), I can buy Co-Op.
As it happens, I don't give a lot of money to West Ham, although I have supported them for thirty-six years. I can't afford to go to matches that often, and I work a lot of match days so couldn't go anyway.
It's still a dilemma though. Maybe it'll be a case of 'support the team, not the regime' but can I do that knowing our new striker has been funded by the same people who have funded the Conservatives? I really don't know.

What are your thoughts? Are your principles absolutely firm? Do you have some flexibility, some variation in your moral compass?

I can see where you're coming from EM2, and I strongly agree with your points. I personally don't think companies or football teams should donate to political parties, as I myself don't buy Warburton's bread because the company donates to a political party that I don't support. I don't want to give my money (albeit indirectly) to a company that supports the Tories, so I generally make my own bread, or buy the Co-op's bread if I don't have the ingredients. However, I'm far from against individuals donating to political parties if they choose to, as it is their money to do with as they wish.

Like yourself, my mother's partner also supports West Ham United. I don't know what he thinks of the donation, but next time I speak to him I'll ask, as I'm certainly interested to hear what he thinks about it.